metric fastners

[owenst7]

Various drives accessories on GM V8 and V6s in the 90s.

When you are one of the biggest manufacturers on the planet it's amazing how little you care about standards when it suits you.

The L31 and TBI 350 used 3/8-16 fasteners with standard 9/16" head for everything threaded in to the block because the blocks were the same original casting since 1955. There was also some 7/16" and 5/16" stuff mixed in there for stuff like heads.

All the components like alternators, AC, etc used metric (with a seemingly patternless mix of DIN and JIC).

In maintaining a fleet of GMT400s for about 15 years, the only fastener I've ever seen that is mixed metric/SAE on the fastener itself is ONE of the bell housing studs. It threads in to the block with 3/8"-16tpi threads, but uses a 14mm wrench and the outside length is threaded 6mm IIRC. It is used as a grounding point on the drivers side near the head.

 

[whateg01]

Not necessarily related to the automotive change, but...

Why do people consider the change to metric to be a bad thing? Or believe that metric fasteners are all of an inferior design? I use mostly SAE fasteners in the stuff I build, but that's largely because the hardware store stocks more of it and it's therefore less expensive.

When measuring out stuff, I think it's far easier to use metric volume than tsp, TBSP, cups, pints, quarts, etc. It's easy to remember that 1 milliliter is less than 100 milliliters. I have to stop and think about cups and pints, or how many teaspoons are in a tablespoon.

Oh, and I've always found it humorous that modern tires are all p-metric on inch-size wheels.

Dave

 

[Ditchdigger]

Why do people consider the change to metric to be a bad thing?

People are resistant to change.

 

[md21722]

While some say SAE will be dead in 10 years it really depends on what you are working on.

Lots of aftermarket parts are SAE.

Outside the automotive world there is still a lot of SAE and they are still using it in new stuff today. Whether or not its because they haven't changed the designs in decades I can't say.

In Metric, used to be 13, 17, 19 then they threw in the 16 and 18 mm and who knows what else, drove me crazy at first.

 

[MikeF2316]

I believe that baby seat top tether bolts are standardized at 5/16-18 (UNC), at least they used to be.

I always liked the Volvo 240s that had the York A/C compressor. That was '75 - 84. The York compressor had SAE threads, the Volvo engine was Metric. The attachment was a very poor design, requiring one bracket on the compressor, another on the engine and then bolting them together. You could put the 10 mm nuts on the 3/8 studs and bolts, but they were a very loose and poor fit.

 

[Nwdub]

SAE will be dead in the next decade in terms of new products. Mowers, Cars, etc will all be metric. Most construction lag bolts and such will stay standard though.

The big changeover you will see is Torx. Torx will replace many fastners, especially in the automotive industry. And of course, there's external and internal torx.

Aka, my tool boxes have sets upon sets of different tools.

 

[thebeekeeper1]

I have a late '90s John Deere LX176 mower that is a complete PITA to work on as it's a steady game of "guess the fastener type." It seems it's always whatever wrench set I didn't take. GRRRRRRRRRRR

 

[joecon]

GM cars switched to metric in 1986. 1986 was the last official mixed car. there are
3 different metric sizes JIS,DIN[euro]and SAE. Most cars are metric but dodge
trucks have fractional bolts on the Cummings engine and the Asin transmission.
I have never seen a mixed fastener but that doesn't mean it isn't out their.

 

[jdelrizzle]

I actually use nothing but sae tools, I work for a manufacturer of hydraulic utility equipment, the hydraulic industry uses a lot of sae fittings, jic, orb. I am an ifps certified hydraulic technician I only work on electrical and hydraulic, before I got into hydraulics I to thought only metric was relevant, but now I have more sae tools then metric.

 

[M6erfan]

I actually use nothing but sae tools, I work for a manufacturer of hydraulic utility equipment, the hydraulic industry uses a lot of sae fittings, jic, orb. I am an ifps certified hydraulic technician I only work on electrical and hydraulic, before I got into hydraulics I to thought only metric was relevant, but now I have more sae tools then metric.

See?

 

[wafrederick]

My dad's John Deere riding lawnmower uses Metric fastners mainly 10mm,13mm,15mm and 18mm.There are 5 thread pitches with metric vs 2 with sae.

 

[2oolhound]

Lets not forget the airline industry - mostly sae

In 1972 my Norton motorcycle changed from whitworth to about one half sae fasteners.
My 95 Jimmy still has lots of sae
Most of the pumps, compressors and engines at work are sae

My tools are 40% sae; 35% metric and 25% whitworth and I've acquired about 75% of my metric tools in the last 5 years.

 

[F124C]

That's a chrysler vehicle for you.

My 05 wrangler was the same...Engine was standard (1970s legacy AMC 4.0), suspension was mostly standard, body hardware metric, transmission a mix of hex, torx, and standard. Drivetrain was mostly metric. Working under it? Grab all the socket rails, never know what you'll come across.

As an engineer I prefer metric. It's logical and easier to follow. That said I still have little concept of what a kilometer feels like.

Just walk 5/8 mile and you'll know what it feels like.
Al.

 

[JonnyMac]

Try growing up in the UK. We drink pints at the pub but litres of milk. Buy litres of fuel but travel miles.
My absolute favorite is when the weather is cold the tv refers to centigrade due to the natural zero degreesC, but in hot weather it reverts back to degs F because everyone wants to hit the 100deg mark!!!
However for fasteners metric is the way forward for me... the size smaller than a 11mm is 10mm... has to be far easier than a size down from 3/8?

 

[Wes J]

I know this forum is auto centered, but there are some of us who spend a lot of time working on things that don't have wheels.

I work on machine tools. Some of them were made before WWII and are still in use. Most were made in the USA. I rarely need metric tools. Very rarely. The company I work for builds brand new machine tools in the US and they are all inch except the purchased components like servo motors and ball screws.

Find any industrial mechanic and he will likely say the same thing.

 

[Greg85mcss]

I don't think anyone mentioned 1/2" drain plugs on chryslers. Although it seems like most people use 13mms on them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Citation]

Personally I like metric better. I started my design life working in metric and I still have to think about things like sheet metal thickness in terms of mm.

However, I've also worked with SAE and in most of my recent work I use SAE when ever possible. Not always easy since some European sourced parts are metric only. For me the big reason to go with SAE is just that I can find a better selection of gears, bearing etc in SAE sizes.

As for cars, well my '78 Ford was a mix of types. I think the WJ Jeep I worked on recently might have had a few SAE fasteners in the mix. I rather like working on the Japanese cars since basically everything is 10, 12, 14 and 17mm. Working domestic or Euro cars was always a bit of a let down since the Japanese fastener sizes just seem to make more sense.

Anyway, sadly I don't see SAE going away any time soon. Some things like Jet engines have very long cycle lives. So a C-130 engine designed in the 1950s is still going to be serviced 20 years from now.

Also, toys like this surgical robot (less than 10 years old) were SAE based designs

 

[maydaymike]

I've actually yet to find something SAE on my '12 Wrangler. Torx is everywhere, however.

The lug nuts and studs are 1/2-20 on my '12 Wrangler.

 

[BioNerd]

There are 2 different metrics
JIS and what is commonly know as euro

JIS is Japanese metric mainly used on cars and bikes built in Japan
Euro is used on American and German ect

JIS Threads are the same as Euro in 8mm (1.25) the head size on euro is 13mm, but JIS is a 12mm
When it comes to 10mm JIS is 1.25 and wrench size is 14mm
The euro is 1.5 thread but the wrench size can be 15mm or 17mm

subaru

 

[nanofrog]

FWIW, industrial equipment, such as that used in manufacturing, still uses SAE to this day, as it allows for integration with older equipment (some of which may be approaching the 100 years old mark).

 

[weg_guy]

In the industrial field and the electrical motor field at least what I see at work is probably 95% SAE with 5% metric. I literally have metric impact sockets that have zero use on them and I have had them for years. The first week of me working there I couldn't believe it it was like stepping back in time 3 decades to a SAE paradise. Now when we need to find a metric tap or die we are scrambling trying to find the correct one. Where as if we need anything standard we have triplicates.

 

[Ricky112]

the only time I've used sae is when I've rounded out a metric fastener

as a Canadian, I use (on a almost daily basis) - cups, lbs, inches, etc.

 

[Dave455]

Guy's, as a Brit, I've had to switch standards twice in my life, first from British Standard to Unified (SAE), and then again to Metric! Trust me, there are NO benefits to the end users like us!

I can sort of get my head around the switch to Unified. This was based on wartime experience, and in the 50's it seemed sensible for the 'allies' to use the same standards. Unfortunately, us Brits got the 'rough end of the pineapple' so to speak, in that the new system was pretty much the American National system, with few changes, but at least the units were familiar!

The switch from Unified to metric was sold to us as 'standardisation' but of course the move was driven entirely by cost savings! Lest anyone should be in doubt, let me point out that you don't simplify anything by adopting another standard, you complicate it!

Although I have a regular 'top box' like most folks, I really only keep the basics in there. Most of my wrenches and specialist sockets I keep boxed up in colour coded boxes. Imagine not just your regular wrenches, but also your specialist stuff like flare nut wrenches and universal sockets all together! Now multiply by 3 and you have an idea of what I need to get through my day!

When you factor in that 'The' metric system isn't one system but several, and the adopted system has changed 3 times in my recall (and is still different from what America uses) and you'll excuse me if I question whether this is progress!

 

[anavrinIV]

Nope. They are 7/16-20 as per US DOT seat belt laws. Factory parts lists for VW and BMW identify them as such. I know that privately imported European market Alfa Romeos use M12 while the US spec brethren use 7/16-20

http://www.jimellisvwparts.com/showAssembly.aspx?ukey_assembly=742130&ukey_product=5170518

It is strange to see the parts list say 7/16X35.

Yep...that makes sense. I was thinking hex size not thread size. FWIW the seatbelt anchor hardware in my 2010 Mazdaspeed3 requires a 14mm socket to remove from the chassis, I wonder what the threads are....Never occurred to me that they would be anything but metric

 

[MShaw]

For our friends "across the pond", in the 1980s I was in London running acceptance tests on a Platarg transfer press. I noticed that all of the fasteners were SAE. I asked them why they were not metric when Great Britain had "gone metric" some time ago.

The answer was, do you know how difficult it is to run out of nuts, bolts, taps, dies, thread and standard gages, purchased parts, and wrenches all at the same time?

 

[Justanoldguy]

My 1972 Ford Pinto had a 2000 cc metric engine.

We call them 2 litre engines.

My '72 Pinto had a 2.3 litre engine

 

[Justanoldguy]

Why all the "Hatred" of Metrics.

You have been using it for money since forever.

 

[Flange]

This thread started out talking about wrenches which for most people are 2 types, A/F (SAE in the US) and metric. For some (like me) it can mean three types with the addition of Whitworth or possibly 4 if you add BA wrenches.

However it now seems to be expanded to include thread types. Well if you include threads then there are literally hundreds of variations.

I dont see a problem with any of this. Unless the world agrees a universal system for everyone and then we destroy all old stuff then its just normal that different countries, industries etc use different systems. Its just a fact of life and its certainly not some sort of scam by manufacturers.

 

[dadsEH]

Why all the "Hatred" of Metrics.

You have been using it for money since forever.

Yeahhhhh !cant wait for the intro of metric TIME.

 

[whateg01]

Why all the "Hatred" of Metrics.

You have been using it for money since forever.

Not entirely. Penny's, nickels, dimes, quarters, half-dollars, dollars... Then each of the denominations of notes. Not multiples of 10.

 

[whateg01]

the only time I've used sae is when I've rounded out a metric fastener

as a Canadian, I use (on a almost daily basis) - cups, lbs, inches, etc.

Last time I was in Regina, I asked my customer there about the mix. I had noticed that the speed limit was in kilometers, but everybody talked about miles. A gal at the bar was talking to her friend and said something about miles, then corrected herself to kilometers. Anyway, my customer said the mixing was everywhere. The weather could be 23 degrees outside, but you preheat the oven to 350!

Dave

 

[whateg01]

I know this forum is auto centered, but there are some of us who spend a lot of time working on things that don't have wheels.

I work on machine tools. Some of them were made before WWII and are still in use. Most were made in the USA. I rarely need metric tools. Very rarely. The company I work for builds brand new machine tools in the US and they are all inch except the purchased components like servo motors and ball screws.

Find any industrial mechanic and he will likely say the same thing.

Is that because the machines you work on are all old? The machine tools that I use day-to-day are not of an industrial scale. My old lathe is all SAE, but my mill uses metric fasteners.

The equipment we build at work used to use #4-40 and #6-32 for just about everything, with a few exceptions where #8 or #10 screws were used. The last product line we introduced started using metric fasteners. Unfortunately, the people assembling stuff aren't always, okay, are almost never, technical. So, when they couldn't get their SAE Allens to fit, they found Torx bits that did. Our production engineering guy just couldn't believe they didn't understand the difference.

Dave

 

[rustbucket5]

i work on lawn equipment, golf equipment and golf carts. with that stuff it usually engine and drivetrain (drivetrain only sometimes) is metric, and the body as they are all made in the states is SAE. i wish the states would officially adopt metric so we can stop having 2 sizes, thats the real issue.

 

[A-R-K]

I have a bunch of DIN (Euro) size m8 bolts/nuts, supposed to use 13mm socket.
But I found that 1/2" sockets has better fit.

Would you guys use a SAE drive on a metric bolt/nut, if the fit is tighter and better or vice versa ?

1/2" = 12.7mm

A lot of metric nuts/bolts requiring a 13mm socket can work with a 1/2" socket, but not all. It comes down to the tolerances of the fastener and the socket. In some cases it'll be a nice tight fit, in others the socket may not got on.

Another good one is 5/16" = 7.94mm.

If an SAE socket has a tighter fit than the metric, by all means use it. It's usually not worth the time to try to figure out what's the better fit though if you know your working on a metric assembly.

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[Justanoldguy]

Not entirely. Penny's, nickels, dimes, quarters, half-dollars, dollars... Then each of the denominations of notes. Not multiples of 10.

That is metric in anybodies language. All parts of 100.

 

[dutchgray]

Why all the "Hatred" of Metrics.

You have been using it for money since forever.

1971 for us Brits, when we went decimal for money and lost the old £.S.d

20 shillings to the pound
12 pence to the shilling
240 pence to the pound.

 

[Dave455]

That is metric in anybodies language. All parts of 100.

Nope, that's 'decimal'!

You can use decimal divisions with inch measurements (the engineering world traditionally has) but that doesn't make it metric!

The metric system uses specific units, Metre for length, gram for weight and so on, then divides or multiplies them decimally!

 

[PJNJ]

Nope, that's 'decimal'!

You can use decimal divisions with inch measurements (the engineering world traditionally has) but that doesn't make it metric!

The metric system uses specific units, Metre for length, gram for weight and so on, then divides or multiplies them decimally!

The US dollar is a decimal based system of measurement - though it is not called a "metric" dollar it fits the criteria of the metric system as the metric system is also a decimal based system. They are both based on the powers of ten. Something doesn't have to be called metric to comply with it's requirements. Saying that the metric system uses (names for) specific units is a misnomer - the metric system actually gives specific names to particular decimal units of measurement for ease of identification. A "dollar" is the name of a specific unit of monetary measurement just as a gram (weight) or a meter (length or distance) is the name for a specific unit of measurement.

http://chemistry.about.com/od/unitsmeasurement/f/What-Units-Is-The-Metric-System-Based-On.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimalisation#United_States

Interesting story on the origination of the money system in the US (just excuse the hyperbole) -
http://metricationmatters.com/docs/USAMetricSystemHistory.pdf

 

[Dave455]

My point is that a system of unit's based on the power 10 is not necessarily metric!

Take an inch! Use a system that divides it into halves, quarters and so on, and that's fairly and squarely an imperial system!

Take the same inch, and divide it into tenths, hundredths and so on and it's now a decimal system, with all the advantages that offers!

However, any system that uses an inch cannot be 'metric' since the 'metric' system specifies that the metre shall be the unit of length!

Now, the dollar may well fit the criteria for a metric unit, but it isn't, since the metric system doesn't specify a unit for currency!

Bear in mind guys, that the metric system is still a relatively new concept in the U.S. Here in the U.K. it's been around, 'warts and all' in some shape or form for five decades! I also understand ths the word 'metric' can have a slightly different meaning in the U.S. which will no doubt cause confusion!

You boys have got loads of fun to come!

 

[WhiskeyRanger]

Is that because the machines you work on are all old? The machine tools that I use day-to-day are not of an industrial scale. My old lathe is all SAE, but my mill uses metric fasteners.

The equipment we build at work used to use #4-40 and #6-32 for just about everything, with a few exceptions where #8 or #10 screws were used. The last product line we introduced started using metric fasteners. Unfortunately, the people assembling stuff aren't always, okay, are almost never, technical. So, when they couldn't get their SAE Allens to fit, they found Torx bits that did. Our production engineering guy just couldn't believe they didn't understand the difference.

Dave

Our new stuff still comes in with SAE unless they forget to spec it and the company building it uses metric. All the electrical is SAE, but it seems like they are pushing for that to go to metric as well looking at the changes in the NEC. The only metric tools I have (at work) are a set of nut drivers, a set of hex keys, and a set of hex bits. I've used a couple of the nut drivers, but mostly for stuff not related to electrical installation (fixing the locks on some Vidmars), and one 3/8 drive hex bit. The allens, I do use more.