Metric tools only?

[plinker]

I've seen guys on here say they really only use or have metric tools, What I'm curious about is how you deal with things that dont use metric, same with bubba'd up car repairs/aftermarket stuff. On various shop projects; do you buy metric hardware? Most metric hardware, around here anyway, is considerably more expensive then inch.

Just curious.

 

[elidas]

We have people working for us (Jeep-Chrysler dealer) that do not own an SAE tool. If anything comes up (rarely) they see me.

 

[iWrench]

I used to have both SAE and metric sockets and wrenches in my toolbox, but I realized SAE stuff was just taking up space so I brought it all home. I work on late model vehicles of the following brands: ford, gm, chrysler, nissan, toyota, hyundai, and kia. Never ran across anything SAE.

 

[jshillin]

I'm 99% metric... I have some standard sockets and basic wrenches in a drawer I rarely ever open, but I do have them for those off the wall circumstances. They aren't much money at all and cheap insurance.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

FWIW: Any car made in the last 20 years is almost entirely metric.


Most mechanics should have dual SAE/Metric sets, the only exceptions I've found are dealer guys 100% dedicated to a single brand that's always been metric. I have less specialty stuff in SAE, but cars/equipment that uses SAE is typically old enough to be wide open. Most aftermarket parts use metric sizes I find, except the jeep/truck community, which specs 100% SAE hardware because 'merica. Almost always coarse pitch too.

Replacement hardware is either purchased by the shop, or from my personal stockpile. I normally specify metric hardware even for things like exhaust. Far too easy for 3/8 hardware to become 5/8 or whatever. M8 by 1.25, there is no question. Of course, you normally need to specify the length in inches. Bulk stuff the shop occasionally manages to stock is all SAE, because it's cheaper.


Thread repair I'm 100% metric regardless of application. On most equipment there's room to step up a size as well, so I go from SAE coarse to metric fine. Much easier for me as I'm personally supplying the hardware more often than not. Any time we do an engine or scrap a car, I harvest every single fastener I can get my hands on, down to the rod cap bolts. I have piles of m6x1 (10mm heads typically) and m8x1.25 (12-14 head). I also find metric much easier from a tapping perspective. Subtract pitch from diameter and you have a good approximation of drill size. 8-1.25= 6.75 drill (for m8x1.25). 1/4 is like 6.3mm, so grab your HF micrometer and a 64s drill bit index and start above 1/4.


You are right, some metric can be tough/expensive to source local. M10x1.25 can be a real pain, as can any m12. Head size is another issue, as car fasteners often have flanged heads and smaller head sizes than what the hardware store stocks. For basic projects I typically buy 100% metric if fastener choice is not dictated by another requirement. Metric thread means metric head sizes, and my eyes are trained to "see" in metric. I look at a bolt I identify first by pitch, then diameter, metric style.








Until I came to GJ, I didn't understand the love and obsession some have with SAE; as though still using SAE is some sort of badge of honor. I find metric to be objectively superior, and it is also what most of my work entails. I find small measurements requiring fractions of an inch are inferior to using centimeters, for my eyes anyways. I see lots of guys on here buying/selling SAE stuff, I can't really wrap my head around what one would actually use it for, but different strokes I suppose.


Edit:

Examples of NEEDING SAE: Plumbing, brass fittings, air lines, hydraulic stuff, basically anything relating to a tube/pipe. Some brake line fittings used 3/8 heads into the 2000's. I know some equipment uses it, buffers, riding mowers, plus classic american stuff.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

I'd also be first in line to melt down all the SAE hardware/tools (aside from collectors pieces). But, as long as stuff that uses it still exists, I will continue to have both.

 

[joebachor]

Im an Industrial Maintenance Mechanic and almost everything is SAE, I use 4mm and 6mm allen T-handles about once every other week.

 

[Empty Pockets]

I still have all of my SAE tools that I purchased new in the 70s and 80s. These are in the lower drawers in my boxes and rarely see the light of day, but when you need them, you need them.

 

[DadsTools]

Just took my 1978 'Burb into a muffler shop to have a new exhaust system put on. You should have seen the mechanic searching high and low for an SAE deepwell to take off the manifold stud nuts. It was pretty funny. He was surprised when I told him I knew what he was digging for--the average consumer is clueless about such things.

 

[pstemari]

Metric threads are a royal PITA to cut on an engine lathe. Even with a metric lead screw, the way metric threads are specified makes threading dials complicated and slow to use. I have an extensive collection of inch taps and dies, but only a smattering of metric ones.

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[M6erfan]

I've seen guys on here say they really only use or have metric tools, What I'm curious about is how you deal with things that dont use metric, same with bubba'd up car repairs/aftermarket stuff. On various shop projects; do you buy metric hardware? Most metric hardware, around here anyway, is considerably more expensive then inch.

Just curious.

I work on 99% metric stuff, but i do have SAE sockets & wrenches, they just hardly get used.

I have a lot of new metric hardware (bolts, screws, washers, nuts, stainless, yellow zinc, etc.) in my shop.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Metric threads are a royal PITA to cut on an engine lathe. Even with a metric lead screw, the way metric threads are specified makes threading dials complicated and slow to use. I have an extensive collection of inch taps and dies, but only a smattering of metric ones.

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I imagine if the lathe was designed for metric in the first place, the inverse would be true and SAE would be difficult?


As far as a '78 suburban, all of those rotted away in my state about 30 years ago. Not too many '98s left.

 

[Lassen Forge]

Go back 30 years and if you didn't have -at least- both you didn't make a living. I still delve into both my Imperial and Metric tools (and occasionally into the world of Whitworth) so to limit yourself to one standard (metric) IMO would be against ones better judgment.

Say your elderly neighbor has something like a Studebaker Commander he decides you can have because he's "too old", or you see a too good to pass up deal on a 60's Jag? (Or, god forbid, a pre-WW2 motorcycle)

Not saying DON'T do metric, but it should be one weapon in your arsenal.... not your only one.

 

[Handyfarmer]

I use SAE 85% of the time, been adding metric for the last 15 years, but I work on a lot of older machines,

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

and besides there are two kinds of nations, those who use metric and those who landed men on the moon,

 

[Citation]

I think it often depends on what you work on. If you work on American designed aircraft I suspect you will find most things are SAE. Cars have basically all moved to metric which is fine with me. I started my professional life thinking in metric. Later at other jobs I had to learn to think in SAE. Now I think I'm just confused.

It might seam strange but this very advanced robot was designed in SAE units. I suspect it was due to the company's ability to source a better selection of things like bearings and gears if they used SAE vs metric standards.

 

[Fedwrench]

I still have SAE but, it gathers dust more than is used.

I think my 3/8 & 9/16 sockets get used once in awhile for specialty equipment, and i use a 1 inch wrench periodically on a power steering pump pulley installer/remover. I have 1 1/16, 1 1/8, and 1 1/4 angle wrenches that get used on ac line connections but, i don't use much else in the way of SAE. we have SAE hardware as well as a pretty good selection of metric nuts & bolts too.

Aside from a bargain at a flea market, i don't think I've purchased an SAE tool in more than awhile.

But fear not, vehicle manufacturers will still fuel the need to buy new tools ranging from new size torx, triple square, plus versions or tamper whatever versions to e torx as they create new hardware for their new beasts.

 

[Jazz1]

Everything on my truck is SAE with the exception of metric nuts/bolts on Edelbrock carb and Carter fuel pump. If you don't have SAE tools you will come across more than your share.

 

[Wyoming09]

We ave about a 50/50 mix of old machinery and new. So everyone has both. The fun stuff are those machines that for whatever reason have a mix of both. Maybe something aftermarket was added or built in the shop. Who knows why that happens but it does, more than you'd think.

 

[BigBoreFan]

I'm 56. Not a car mechanic. I wouldn't even qualify as a hack. My stuff is 99% metric. I've been working on dirt bikes since 1976. I might qualify as a hack when it comes to bikes.

 

[Moparman390]

I have both, need both. Inside the house SAE is common, garage, both. But then again between my father and I we have 69, 70, and 71 Mopars to go along with modern Challengers, plus my my wife's Jeep. I always have one of the old cars my the garage along with Challenger and the wife's Jeep. So plenty of SAE need for me.

 

[apdxyk]

"Metric" is a misnomer in this case. You, probably meant decimal metric system. There are all kinds of metric systems, and avoir dupois metric system is one of them. Metric is derived from the Greek word 'metros' - to meter, to measure. There are different ways to measure things, hence different metric systems.

 

[pstemari]

I imagine if the lathe was designed for metric in the first place, the inverse would be true and SAE would be difficult?

No, it's intrinsic to how metric thread pitches were selected. Typical inch leadscrew (4TPI) has a simple threading dial with no settings, and worst (and very rare) case you have to wait for 16 turns off the leadscrew between passes. More typically you only have to wait for two turns, and for threads divisible by 4 you can completely ignore the threading dial and start anywhere.

Lathes with metric leadscrews have threading dials with multiple settings, which have to be chosen for the specific pitch, and you have to wait much longer for the right line to come around and pick up the thread again. It's often less error-prone and not much slower to leave the half nuts engaged and just run the lathe backwards between passes.

The basic problem is that metric pitches don't have a small common multiple. The question is how many turns of the leadscrew are required to get the threads back in sync.

Inch threads general share 1" as the least common multiple. There's only one standard thread that has a **-1/4 TPI and 3-4 more that have **-1/2 TPI. Worse case is that the threads repeat every 4", but normally you only have to wait for 4 turns of the leadscrew and often only 1-2.

Metric pitches don't fit neatly into a single small length. Some of them are friendly and work anywhere on the leadscrew, other require 3, 5, or 7 turns to resync. There's no simple rule like "any numbered line for odd TPI and any line for even TPI". Every metric pitch is a $&@$&%! snowflake.

The only manual lathes I know if that can do metric reasonably well are the Hardinge HLV's (and presumably the various clones). Those have a special dog clutch connecting the gear box to the spindle, which eliminates the need for a threading dial. The half-nuts stay engaged the entire time, and the leadscrew is reversed to pull the carriage back. When the clutch is reengaged the spindle is always in the exact same place relative to the gear train and leadscrew.

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[Wamsutta]

GM cars are notorious for being both metric and SAE. I'd be interested to know if any 2018 models are completely metric.

 

[Professional Tool User]

As someone who works on medium and heavy duty trucks for a living, I need both. That being said, automotive guys who don't work on any classic cars can get away with just metric though they do have to spend more on bit sockets.

 

[LJSE34]

I keep a cheap set of 3/8" drive standard size sockets in the back of the my toolbox. This doesn't cost much and will solve the problem in the rare case I come across a standard size fastener. This is for automotive anyway.

 

[belvedere]

The fun stuff are those machines that for whatever reason have a mix of both.

I had a '98 Cherokee like that!

 

[CR888]

The answer is if you ONLY work on metric that is all you'll need. But we often buy tool sets based on what we don't need as much as what we do. Hand tools are cheap compared to labor costs so why not have both. I encounter well over 90% metric but when I do some home plumbing or whatever where many industry standard fasteners are SAE, I'm glad I invested in both. Every hot water service new or old I've encountered uses a 1-1/16" anode bolt. They are usually very tough to remove so having the right socket or impact socket makes easy work of the job. ****** it up with the wrong tool and it will cost more in time/parts than a set of SAE sockets. Decent sockets and wrenches have never been more affordable, why would you limit yourself with only metric, it don't make rational sense. The day SAE is removed from every application is the day I'll let those tools go, until then...

 

[azchrisf]

I'd have a few SAE/Standard tools around, many of the bolts and hardware you buy at the big box stores for home repairs, etc. are SAE only.

 

[ReggieR]

My recommendations to youngsters is focus metric and learn the system in all other areas of life too.
HOWEVER
Garage junkies and semi pros be on the lookout for high quality sae to add to the collection(s) with the few extra bucks you might have.
I have a guy with a 1968 Torino ?(Ford) wagon coming over this morning. "Rattiling" in his "motor" 302 2bbl. The guy is 75 and bought it new.
They're still around---albeit few--- and nobody but me wanted any part of it.
I still have a timing light, feeler gauges and dwell meter.
BTW it's 5 litres

 

[William Payne]

At my old work we had a metric cylindrical grinder that had whitworth fasteners.

 

[gtae07]

I think it often depends on what you work on. If you work on American designed aircraft I suspect you will find most things are SAE.

To this day, we make new airplanes in US units. The fasteners and raw materials are all standardized in US measurements. However, everything is measured and dimensioned in decimal inches.

The airplane I'm building is in US units as well, but many parts on the plans call out fractions. That's annoying. But still, I work better in US units because enough experience has finally calibrated me to eyeballing fastener sizes, stock thickness, etc. I can't eyeball metric units.

I generally only work on the cars when I need to; most of my stuff uses SAE tools so I don't have as much in the way of metric.

 

[Mr_B]

For price and space of few a/f socket rails and a a/f combo wrench set it seems silly not to have it in basic coverage at least .

 

[2ndGearRubber]

GM cars are notorious for being both metric and SAE. I'd be interested to know if any 2018 models are completely metric.

Yup, every single one of them.


Aside from hose clamps (aftermarket ones), I don't really ever use SAE. Tools like u-joint pullers and pulley tools usually spec SAE. But the cars themselves have long since abandoned it.

 

[woody6904]

Man it would be nice just to have metric. But for farm equipment you need both. I could free up a lot of room in the shop and the service truck.

 

[M_George]

I bought a power supply steering pulley removal tool last week that used SAE wrenches.

 

[Mr_B]

I still have and use occasionally Whitworth .

 

[6PTsocket]

That tap drill size works with SAE, too. You just have to convert the pitch from threads/ inch to inches/thread, metric style. 20 tpi goes to 1/20". For 1/4-20, subtract 1/20 from 1/4. It is easier to take it to decimal:
.25-.05=.20. The chart calls for a #7 bit that is .2010. It is too clumsy to be practical but the relationship is the same.

FWIW: Any car made in the last 20 years is almost entirely metric.


Most mechanics should have dual SAE/Metric sets, the only exceptions I've found are dealer guys 100% dedicated to a single brand that's always been metric. I have less specialty stuff in SAE, but cars/equipment that uses SAE is typically old enough to be wide open. Most aftermarket parts use metric sizes I find, except the jeep/truck community, which specs 100% SAE hardware because 'merica. Almost always coarse pitch too.

Replacement hardware is either purchased by the shop, or from my personal stockpile. I normally specify metric hardware even for things like exhaust. Far too easy for 3/8 hardware to become 5/8 or whatever. M8 by 1.25, there is no question. Of course, you normally need to specify the length in inches. Bulk stuff the shop occasionally manages to stock is all SAE, because it's cheaper.


Thread repair I'm 100% metric regardless of application. On most equipment there's room to step up a size as well, so I go from SAE coarse to metric fine. Much easier for me as I'm personally supplying the hardware more often than not. Any time we do an engine or scrap a car, I harvest every single fastener I can get my hands on, down to the rod cap bolts. I have piles of m6x1 (10mm heads typically) and m8x1.25 (12-14 head). I also find metric much easier from a tapping perspective. Subtract pitch from diameter and you have a good approximation of drill size. 8-1.25= 6.75 drill (for m8x1.25). 1/4 is like 6.3mm, so grab your HF micrometer and a 64s drill bit index and start above 1/4.


You are right, some metric can be tough/expensive to source local. M10x1.25 can be a real pain, as can any m12. Head size is another issue, as car fasteners often have flanged heads and smaller head sizes than what the hardware store stocks. For basic projects I typically buy 100% metric if fastener choice is not dictated by another requirement. Metric thread means metric head sizes, and my eyes are trained to "see" in metric. I look at a bolt I identify first by pitch, then diameter, metric style.








Until I came to GJ, I didn't understand the love and obsession some have with SAE; as though still using SAE is some sort of badge of honor. I find metric to be objectively superior, and it is also what most of my work entails. I find small measurements requiring fractions of an inch are inferior to using centimeters, for my eyes anyways. I see lots of guys on here buying/selling SAE stuff, I can't really wrap my head around what one would actually use it for, but different strokes I suppose. [emoji481]


Edit:

Examples of NEEDING SAE: Plumbing, brass fittings, air lines, hydraulic stuff, basically anything relating to a tube/pipe. Some brake line fittings used 3/8 heads into the 2000's. I know some equipment uses it, buffers, riding mowers, plus classic american stuff.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[6PTsocket]

After reading through this thread, it is pretty obvious that it depends on what you use your tools for that detirmines what you need. Many live in their own world and have no idea what others are up to. Somebody working on newer cars in the city never gives a thought to somebody working on big tractors in farm country. You may not use SAE but that does not mean others do not. I had a complete set of SAE and had to duplicate it in metric. The metric system is far more logical and the US probably should have switched many years ago but it is what it is and I see tools for both systems being used for the forseeable future, if not by the same people.

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[bwringer]

99.9% of the fasteners I turn are metric.

I have an "inch ghetto" drawer at the bottom of the cabinet in the back that all the inch **** gets tossed into. If I'm working on farm machinery like a lawn mower or Harley, I'll rummage around in there.

Last winter I sorted and de-duped my inch **** and hauled the stuff I don't need to Habitat Restore so it can sit around unused in someone else's garage.

Of course, it depends on what you do -- if you work on airplanes, really old cars, some types of industrial equipment, or heavy equipment, then yeah, you need inch stuff. There's nothing inherently better or worse about either system; fractions shouldn't be confusing for anyone past fifth grade.

The one thing that really chaps my *** is that it's 2018, yet it can still be difficult to source metric fasteners. Most machinery that normal citizens deal with is metric, yet if you go into the average hardware store, you'll find rows and rows of gleaming, untouched inch hardware, and only a few drawers of desperately pawed-through metric goodies with all the most-needed sizes missing. It's like the store's goal is to keep a pretty collection of bolts instead of selling bolts people need.

Plus, Asian vehicles have been on these shores for 60+ years, yet it's still very difficult to find JIS hardware. Sometimes it doesn't matter, but often it does. Makes me batty.

 

[Mgdoug3]

Like many farmers and mechanics that work on farm equipment here, only having SAE or metric would be a terrible idea. Metric is definitely becoming more popular. As long as older equipment is still in use, SAE will be popular. Ten years ago the only metric tool i had was an adjustable wrench.