Michigan garage options

[tekkie]

Hi all

sorry i tried a search but didnt find what i was looking for relating to Michigan

I am looking at building at least 30x40 but hopefully something more in the 40x60 range and looking at pole barns vs stick building vs metal has my head spinning

a few requirements
- i dont want the building shifting due to the freezing / thawing which so a traditional pole barn doesnt seem to be a good option, I prefer doing a concrete base and building it from that, not sure if you can do that with a pole barn or not.

- i want something that is well insulated, people have told me that metal buildings dont insulate well, have issues with moisture & are expensive to insulate. Pole barns are a pain to insulate because of the wall design. Obviously a stick design is the easiest but also the most expensive.

- i can only have a max of 2400sqft including a loft, a loft is a must but it could be done after the inspection if i pick the 40x60 for example. I am thinking either 12 or 14 ft walls so i can do that.

- i plan to put 2 car lifts, so the loft will only cover part of the shop

- i want to hire a company to supply / build it, I could do it myself but i simply dont have the time. I will do the interior thought. I want someone who is trustworthy and timely

- my wife (the boss) wants to have something that looks like a barn but talking to some contractors they told me doing a gambrel style roof is expensive. Most metal buildings seem to have a low slope which i want higher to give me more headroom. Especially with the loft area.

I am planning to use it for working on my cars / bikes, woodworking / welding etc and then in the loft to have an office / man cave along with storage. I plan to heat it just to keep it from freezing and then turn on the heat only when i am out there. Likely i will install electric baseboard heaters in the enclosed loft. So the temp will fluctuate in the shop area and obviously it gets pretty cold in MI so the insulation is important to reduce the heating costs etc.

anyone have any recommendations on what to do? who to talk to in Michigan? there are a bazillion different companies doing this and i just want someone i can trust to this properly from the beginning instead of doing it and then having to fix stuff

 

[sberry]

There are hundreds of thousands of pole barns that havnt moved from frost. Especially if they are heated. Stick and foundation is the easiest to finish nicely. Steel gets more economical as sizes get bigger and have some reduced fire insurance cost. They allow for some other design options. Michigan varies, what part?
I agree with the low level heating, warm the office more. One of the benefits of this type of garage is heat for sure, once you put something inside its secure from weather if it never freezes. The cost goes way down if its not like Texas sun in there and it doesn't need to always be hot to work. Mine is only 50 ish, sometimes a bit more, you get used to it and it feels warm when its 10 out. If I had a crew working full every day it would be a little different but its maintenance and utility mostly. 60 is actually quite comfy for real work.
Its not for office work but for fabricating its not bad, I would just as soon wear another layer of work cloths anyway. Some for protection and some due to in and out in cold weather.

 

[tekkie]

it would be in Ortonville (between flint / Detroit)

the insurance cost i didnt think about so thats another thing to consider i guess

 

[finn]

Plenty of pole buildings without problems, but when I put up my 32x54 a number of years ago, the consensus from a couple of contractors was they an unfinished pole building was cheaper to erect, but if you plan to insulate and finish the interior, pole vs stick is a wash.

 

[86turbodsl]

I'd have to agree with finn that finishing is a wash. You still need framing interior and exterior if you do insulate. I will say that a pole building goes up faster, and can be insulated better depending on construction.

Mine has been up almost 20 years and hasn't moved an iota in central michigan.

 

[SALIV8]

My pole barn in s/w mich in snow country hasn't budged and the concrete pad has not one crack in it either.

No insulation, just cold storage tho. If you want less expensive and quickly completed, a pole barn that is well built will last a lifetime, at least.

I am more than happy with mine and only wish I went bigger at this point. Mine is 30x48.

 

[TTA579]

I helped put up a pole barn in northern Michigan 14-15 years ago. It's still exactly where we put it, without a single issue.

 

[jeepinerdeep]

Look up RR Buildings on YouTube. He has done 2 recent pole builds on poured frost walls. I really like that. In my mind that would be a close 2nd to stick built on a frost wall.

 

[theoldwizard1]

A 30' wide structure is expensive to span with anything but trussed wood or metal rafters or full parallel truss floor. Wood trusses eat up a lot of space. The parallel truss floor with a gambrel roof will give you the maximum amount of storage but will also cost the most.

Putting a typical pitched roof on 12-14' walls will not give you a lot of usable loft storage unless you are will to build the loft only 8' off the ground.

The most cost effective solution is probably use regular wood trusses over the shop area and attic trusses over the area where you want storage. Attic trusses are a big compromise for storage.

A concrete floor is typically the last thing done on a large building, either stick or pole built, and can be put off for several years as long as you have your builder plan for it.

Unless you are going to segregate the areas (living/office, work shop, storage) good insulation (12" in the ceiling/roof) will be expensive. Heating that whole space will also be expensive and electric baseboard is the most expensive (to operate) form of heat.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Look up RR Buildings on YouTube. He has done 2 recent pole builds on poured frost walls. I really like that. In my mind that would be a close 2nd to stick built on a frost wall.

Exact same exterior specs as the OP !

How to Build a Garage #1 - Layout and Concrete Piers

 

[Stuart in MN]

Look up RR Buildings on YouTube. He has done 2 recent pole builds on poured frost walls. I really like that. In my mind that would be a close 2nd to stick built on a frost wall.

They have a number of good videos on the construction methods of pole buildings. Besides foundations and footings they discuss insulation as well.


Besides that, they seem to do real high quality work - if I were in their area and wanted a building built I'd be calling them.

 

[matt_i]

You can do a gambrel truss, it might seem expensive up front but my guess is that its pretty cheap for the size gained.

Alternatively you could do an attic storage truss. With 6:12 pitch, thats roughly 10ft high in the centerline with a 40' span.

You will get a lot better prices on either style truss if you can do some kind of center beam and deal with some support columns. With a mid-span support the trusses don't have to be as hefty.

I would prepare detailed plans and then submit those to various builders. You can also have them propose markups to save money or make it easier to build (which theoretically should save money).

For an investment that large I would definitely do the permacolumns if building the post frame (pole bldg). My personal feeling is that otherwise you are building a 30-50 year building. I know at least 5 people in SE michigan who have built stick with a "trench foundation" where you excavate with backhoe or ditch witch to a depth of 42-48" and then use the ground as the form. The timing has to be right though otherwise heavy rainfall can collapse the trenches into a muddy mess.

One more piece of advice. Many threads on this forum deal with how to hang the ceiling after the fact, in a post frame when the trusses are 6-8 feet apart. Metal panels or drywall like a spacing of 24" on center, so I would pay the extra to have trusses set every 24" minimum unless you are doing a special detail like dormers or an extra wide stair opening, but those will need the missing trusses anyway, just doubled, tripled, etc.

On edit: its my opinion that making an attic into a useable loft is very challenging from a HVAC perspective. It gets quite hot and quite cold up there right next to the roof. Yes the underside of the roof can be insulated with special care but now there are potential issues with venting....least expensive is to use the attic only for "dry storage" and just let the temp swing.

Its well worth a month or so of daily research on this forum to get the ins and outs of various choices and see what others have done and analyze the wishiwouldhaves.

 

[theoldwizard1]

You can do a gambrel truss, it might seem expensive up front but my guess is that its pretty cheap for the size gained.

I really like gambrel roofs especially on outbuildings. The problem is getting the to LOOK RIGHT ! It is all about the angles and size of the upper and lower roof decks.

I am not architect, but playing around with some CAD, I came to the conclusion
that the peak of a gambrel roof needs to be 1/2 the distance of the width of the building above the top of the walls. So on a 30' span, the peak would be 15' above the walls and this is with minimal overhang. Also the upper and lower decks should be the same size and have a 45° angle in between.

 

[tekkie]

thanks for all the info i just watched hours of RR builds, it ***** that they are nearly 6 hrs away

 

[6768rogues]

I have two pole buildings in western NY with a similar climate to yours. The poles are set on concrete pads that are below the frost line, and are not encased in concrete. The 36x48 is all wood with vinyl siding and is heated and air conditioned. The 40x60 is metal siding and only heated. The wood and siding building is a little tighter, but neither is very hard to heat and don't cost much to heat. I built the smaller building in 1993 and the larger building was built in 1998. Neither has any detectable settling or heaving. Done right, yours won't either.

 

[theoldwizard1]

thanks for all the info i just watched hours of RR builds, it ***** that they are nearly 6 hrs away

I watched a bunch also. I never heard of a framing carpenter who was not happy with +/- 1/4" ! That guy wants less than an 1/8" ! It is also interesting how much he assembles of the ground. Never heard of any one pre-drilling roof purlins so that they can be installed standing up ! He has great faith in his work (and purlins) with 8' spacing on the trusses !

I would hire this guys company in a heart beat !

 

[tekkie]

I watched a bunch also. I never heard of a framing carpenter who was not happy with +/- 1/4" ! That guy wants less than an 1/8" ! It is also interesting how much he assembles of the ground. Never heard of any one pre-drilling roof purlins so that they can be installed standing up ! He has great faith in his work (and purlins) with 8' spacing on the trusses !

I would hire this guys company in a heart beat !

agreed i sent him a mail but i doubt he will drive 5 1/2hrs away lol

 

[TractorJeff]

Any AMISH nearby?
They do good work and are efficient!

 

[Radix2]

Start with how this building will be finished.

Metal walls and barn metal roof ?

Siding and shingles ?

Finished interior?

There is a reason houses are built the way they are - builders aren't putting more in if there is a cheaper way...

too many guys get drawn in on a basic machine shed price wise ...and end up making their lives hard when they could have done it simpler and easier.

 

[jeepinerdeep]

agreed i sent him a mail but i doubt he will drive 5 1/2hrs away lol

The point was more for you to see his methods, and try to hire local now that you can see apples to apples what some of the better options are for construction methods.

I don't believe he travels that far. I'm sure a MI builder will be able to quote what you want, once you know what exactly that is. ie Piers, or frost wall

 

[theoldwizard1]

If you want a gambrel roof on a 30' wide building and a reasonable strong floor for storage/living, you are going to need parallel truss floor joist. The gambrel rafter can probably be made with 3/4" plywood gussets at the joints. It will require and architect/engineer to specify/sign off on the construction details.