Mid - Low range brushless failures?

[FoxDeltaCharlie]

Brushless seems to be all the rage now in cordless tools. Seems to be "Go brushless...or go home", when I talk with people about cordless tools anymore. Then recently (last 6 months or so), several colleagues have mentioned how their brushless tools just failed one day. Almost all of these were that they went to use the tool after it sitting for a few days/weeks and it would fire up for a half-second and then just die (like a dead battery, but it wasn't). The tool never recovered and just died completely, like it was the control board for the tool wigging out. To my knowledge, none of these tools were particularly high end, but there were some DeWalts on the list, and some lesser types like RIGID and Ryobi (which I own some of).

At first, I didn't pay much attention, but then the other day I went to use my cheapo Bauer brushless grinder (which had about 2 minutes of total use since new). The tool did the exact same thing as described above. It'd spin the disc for like two revolutions and just quit. Then it just puked completely. Later, I was talking with a buddy who's wife works for HD and he mentioned to me that there are actually quite a few of these new brushless tools failing the exact same way lately (Ryobi, RIGID, DeWalt and even some Milwaukees). HF cheerily replaced my grinder so no complaints there, but it got me to wondering if there's a trend to brushless tools having control board problems in general. Never really had any issues like this with any of my brushed cordless tools.

Cheap electronics may be the cause, but I was just wondering if anyone else has observed this?

Thanks in advance.

 

[liliysdad]

I don’t think this is nearly as frequent a fault as you describe. Brushless is hardly new, and by now is pretty fleshed out. If this were a real concern, it would be a common point of discussion.

That being said, I am curious as to others experience. I have quite a few yellow tools, brushed and brushless, and have friends and acquaintances with various numbers of blue, yellow, and red in various industries and have yet to hear of anything like this.

 

[FoxDeltaCharlie]

I don’t think this is nearly as frequent a fault as you describe. Brushless is hardly new, and by now is pretty fleshed out. If this were a real concern, it would be a common point of discussion.

That being said, I am curious as to others experience. I have quite a few yellow tools, brushed and brushless, and have friends and acquaintances with various numbers of blue, yellow, and red in various industries and have yet to hear of anything like this.

I agree.

Oh, I'm not suggesting it is frequent, but rather just attempting to see if there is any trend here, or if my recent discussions are just coincidence. Brushless tool reliability is one of the top selling points for brushless technology in cordless tools (the other being added efficiency / power).

Neither am I suggesting that brushless technology in general is inherently flawed; it is not. But, I can visualize manufacturers in the market possibly cutting cost corners on tools which are arguably more complex than their brushed counterparts for the sake of profits. Just trying to understand if this is even a 'thing' or not. I'm not aware of a whole lot of long-term reliability reports on cordless power tools. Are there any?

 

[seber]

I have three brushless Milwaukees that did the same thing. It is the only failure I've not been able to fix.

 

[neophyte]

The most likely component, in any hand held power tool, that will likely fail, has almost always been the “fancy” electronic models, for variable speed, or constant speed control, etc.
The next item prone to failure, is usually the switch.
Back two or three decades ago, some professionals would intentionally avoid power tools with electronic modules, instead opting for “stupider” versions, without variable speed, to increase the likelihood of longevity with their tools.
Router speed control modules could be used for a non variable speed tool, and if the speed control unit failed, you simply tossed it, and spent $20-$30 on a new one, which was way less expensive in most cases than the circuitry modules, or variable speed triggers would cost to replace, just for the parts.

Brushless tools rely on circuitry modules, and fancy switches in some cases, so there are way more potential points for failure over older brushed tools, and the circuitry modules are in many cases potted, so even if you could potentially identify an issue, like a blown capacitor, it is harder to find the issue and repair the circuitry unit.

Some of the tool teardown videos also show quality differences between manufacturers, were even “professional” brands like Milwaukee and Makita, will have way less heat dinking built in than certain other brands like Fein or Hilti.

 

[Steve_P]

If this was a statistically relevant issue, there would be hundreds of threads on this here; there aren't. Another way to check is to look up reviews of the top brand brushless tools on Amazon; again, most quality brands have close to 5 stars.

Soo.... I'm not sure if this is really a valid question considering it's your first or second post.

 

[engineer2]

I've beat the **** out of my brushless Makita tools for a decade and never had a problem. Makita does advise if you store it for more than 6 months, take the battery out.

 

[FoxDeltaCharlie]

If this was a statistically relevant issue, there would be hundreds of threads on this here; there aren't. Another way to check is to look up reviews of the top brand brushless tools on Amazon; again, most quality brands have close to 5 stars.

Soo.... I'm not sure if this is really a valid question considering it's your first or second post.

I'm not sure what conclusion I should draw from your reply.

Should I infer that this is the place for the final word on statistical relevance of anything and everything? Or, should I conclude that valid questions can only come from members with 2,621 total posts? And, how exactly does post count have anything at all to do with valid questions? For the record, Amazon is not really a good litmus test of unbiased reviews either.

Candidly, if my reply to you seems somewhat abrupt, it is likely because your reply to me seems seems pretty full of yourself.

My apologies if I have misinterpreted your intent, but that's the way it comes off. Oh, and thanks for the warm welcome.

 

[Firebrick43]

Brushless seems to be all the rage now in cordless tools. Seems to be "Go brushless...or go home", when I talk with people about cordless tools anymore. Then recently (last 6 months or so), several colleagues have mentioned how their brushless tools just failed one day. Almost all of these were that they went to use the tool after it sitting for a few days/weeks and it would fire up for a half-second and then just die (like a dead battery, but it wasn't). The tool never recovered and just died completely, like it was the control board for the tool wigging out. To my knowledge, none of these tools were particularly high end, but there were some DeWalts on the list, and some lesser types like RIGID and Ryobi (which I own some of).

At first, I didn't pay much attention, but then the other day I went to use my cheapo Bauer brushless grinder (which had about 2 minutes of total use since new). The tool did the exact same thing as described above. It'd spin the disc for like two revolutions and just quit. Then it just puked completely. Later, I was talking with a buddy who's wife works for HD and he mentioned to me that there are actually quite a few of these new brushless tools failing the exact same way lately (Ryobi, RIGID, DeWalt and even some Milwaukees). HF cheerily replaced my grinder so no complaints there, but it got me to wondering if there's a trend to brushless tools having control board problems in general. Never really had any issues like this with any of my brushed cordless tools.

Cheap electronics may be the cause, but I was just wondering if anyone else has observed this?

Thanks in advance.

I wonder if they use lower size/quality components in the electrics of the homeowner/mid grade tools compared to the top tier line.

 

[bwringer]

There is a difference in repairability. When something goes wrong with a brushed tool, it's often visible and may be economically fixable.

When something goes wrong with a brushless tool, there's rarely any visible physical fault, and it's probably not fixable; control boards, for example, are rarely available at reasonable prices.

As far as frequency of failure, hard to tell. Die grinders do seem to fail with some regularity; they're in an extremely hostile environment, always operating balls out and very heavily loaded, and producing huge volumes of dust and dirt, often conductive, that easily enters the tool's vents.

If the heat could be managed adequately, a sealed die grinder would very likely last a hell of a lot longer. Not sure there's a realistic way to do this. I could envision making the case a bit larger so that there's room for air channels to cool the motor that exhaust out the handle or something.

 

[honcho]

As others have written, the required electronic control of the brushless motor is a likely culprit for the failures. While modern electronics can be incredibly reliable, they do fail. Well designed and manufactured products can still suffer from individual component failures that will render the unit inoperable. Capacitors seem to be one of the most commonly failed components in many categories of electronics. Mechanical failure can occur from shock, vibration, thermal expansion/contraction that can break components and connections on a circuit board. As mentioned by another poster, contamination from grinding or perhaps even by a corrosive chemical is a possibility in some cases. The Ave Boltr tool teardown videos on youtube give an overview of how the boards are constructed and Ave's opinion on the quality of their design and construction. The amazing thing is how well even the cheap stuff works and that the big names like DeWalt and Milwaukee have surprisingly long and generous warranties for their cordless tools.

 

[ItsNemo]

Notta failure for me and I have dozens of brushless tools...9 times out of 10 when I see failures out there of any sort of tool, it's user error/abuse and nothing to do with the tools themselves. People use their drills as hammers and dump them in the mud and then complain when they quit...usually with a "such and such brand is **** but such and such other brand mops the floor with it and isn't ****" lol

 

[Etchase]

A recent TTI annual report stated their warranty costs were 4% of revenue.

 

[Pinemarten]

That 4% number is interesting. Based on the price of cordless tools, one might assume that failures could drive that number up faster than wrenches or tape measures.

A deeper dive into that could show trends, but I doubt any companies, (not just TTI) would want to publicize that information.

 

[neophyte]

A recent TTI annual report stated their warranty costs were 4% of revenue.

I 1 in 25 failure rate ?
Or higher ?
Presumably, a manufacturer doesn’t spend more to repair an item than the item cost to build, and instead just hands out a new tool as a replacement.

 

[Snip's]

I purchased the M18 FUEL 120 MPH 450 CFM 18-Volt Lithium-Ion Brushless Cordless Handheld Blower W/ M18 5.0Ah Battery on July 2022...
Around about August 2023 it just up and stopped working... Past it's warranty period... Was going to pitch it in the garbage... Decided to take it apart... Could't find any obvious burn marks on the control board... Started at the battery plug connection and discovered one of the heavy gauge power wire in the trigger handle had a weak loose crimped connection... Pealed back the insulation and soldered the connection and protected the fix with heat shrink tubing... Put it back together and it's been working fine ever since...

So I guess it depends on the failure, if it's fixable... Mine almost ended up in the trash...

 

[engineer2]

1 in 25 is pretty good for Chinese products. 1 in 10 is more common, especially with cheap consumer goods.

 

[Etchase]

That 4% number is interesting. Based on the price of cordless tools, one might assume that failures could drive that number up faster than wrenches or tape measures.

A deeper dive into that could show trends, but I doubt any companies, (not just TTI) would want to publicize that information.

I 1 in 25 failure rate ?
Or higher ?
Presumably, a manufacturer doesn’t spend more to repair an item than the item cost to build, and instead just hands out a new tool as a replacement.

It’s unusual for companies to report their warranty costs, but TTI did around the time warranties were extended to 5 years on cordless tools, presumably to reassure their investors that the move wasn’t a disaster. Can’t really draw any conclusions from the number without prior year numbers, lots of variables go into warranty costs, including people that don’t go through the warranty process. I don’t know of any business school case studies highlighting the high quality manufacturing techniques in the tool business.

 

[Junker]

Brushless seems to be all the rage now in cordless tools. Seems to be "Go brushless...or go home", when I talk with people about cordless tools anymore. Then recently (last 6 months or so), several colleagues have mentioned how their brushless tools just failed one day. Almost all of these were that they went to use the tool after it sitting for a few days/weeks and it would fire up for a half-second and then just die (like a dead battery, but it wasn't). The tool never recovered and just died completely, like it was the control board for the tool wigging out. To my knowledge, none of these tools were particularly high end, but there were some DeWalts on the list, and some lesser types like RIGID and Ryobi (which I own some of).

At first, I didn't pay much attention, but then the other day I went to use my cheapo Bauer brushless grinder (which had about 2 minutes of total use since new). The tool did the exact same thing as described above. It'd spin the disc for like two revolutions and just quit. Then it just puked completely. Later, I was talking with a buddy who's wife works for HD and he mentioned to me that there are actually quite a few of these new brushless tools failing the exact same way lately (Ryobi, RIGID, DeWalt and even some Milwaukees). HF cheerily replaced my grinder so no complaints there, but it got me to wondering if there's a trend to brushless tools having control board problems in general. Never really had any issues like this with any of my brushed cordless tools.

Cheap electronics may be the cause, but I was just wondering if anyone else has observed this?

Thanks in advance.

I have a rigid rattle gun/drill combo, about 5 or 6 years old maybe, no problems. I use the rattle gun a lot, got left out in the rain once. Took it to bits to try and rescue it. Replaced a bearing. Still runs fine. The drill I rarely use, recently it started( or rather stopped) working immediately upon pressing the trigger until I fumble with it a bit. Doesn't wake up for any reason in particular but eventually does. Could be the battery though, was in tge rain with the rattle gun so I labeled it and thd only time I thought to look it was in the drill when it wasn't turning on

 

[honcho]

A recent TTI annual report stated their warranty costs were 4% of revenue.

I wonder how that compares to other industries warranty costs? Seems like a lot to me for the products TTI manufacturers but I really have no basis for comparison.