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Milwaukee Fuel vs Dewalt Flexvolt Miter Review

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Ign

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Just had time to watch, interesting. I will say I am not a yellow fan, but I thought this new technology is really cool. Obviously not apples to apples as the Dewalt is running a 12 inch blade.

What I found most interesting was the recharge times (45 min Milwaukee vs >2 hrs DeWalt) and the Dewalt needs a minimum of two batteries at approximately 300 retail.

No clear winner as DeWalt can be plugged in but the performance advantage/disadvantages seem less obvious than one would assume.
 

Trey T

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^yup I agree. I like that dewalt can be used w/ AC power. I'm absolutely not a fan of 12" blade and it depends on the industry (rough or fine work), but if you're a fan of Festool and their innovation, they use 10" blade and not 12". For me, M18 is the one to get.

In terms of electrical power, I did some math (I'm a li-ion battery junkie) and they both produce about the same power (watts) @ 810W. It's one info that I have not seen anybody discussed. It's a reason why the M18 can cut more because that 10" rotation mass is more than likely to hog less power than the 12". The other reason is that Milwaukee is likely to use a array of 3.0Ah battery instead of 2.0Ah.

If y'all want to figure out how I came up w/ 810W ... just remember that the li-ion battery for power tools can push 15A each cell (or array) and each cell are rated @ 3.76V.
 
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dacan23

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Back when Flexvolt was announced there were many people pointing out that the Flex to 60 was the same power as Milwaukees XC packs. But what is not known officially is if the Fuel motors actually run at 60v and within the tool it modifies the voltage vs Dewalt doing it on the battery. Agree that 12" in sliding is overkill and Dewalt could of maybe had slight edge in performance if they made it 10". The 2 batteries with the cost of them and slow charge time is going to be a tipping point to Milwaukee and all their new HD tools which run optimal on the 9.0. Plus the Dewalt costs more as a whole to begin with, if all things were equal an extra $200 for a cord option is not worth it. Add in Flexvolt batteries only charge in Flexvolt chargers and new Flex tools can only use Flex batteries (20v Max tools can use Flex batteries). Any M18 tool can use the 9.0 and existing chargers charge it.

^yup I agree. I like that dewalt can be used w/ AC power. I'm absolutely not a fan of 12" blade and it depends on the industry (rough or fine work), but if you're a fan of Festool and their innovation, they use 10" blade and not 12". For me, M18 is the one to get.

In terms of electrical power, I did some math (I'm a li-ion battery junkie) and they both produce about the same power (watts) @ 810W. It's one info that I have not seen anybody discussed. It's a reason why the M18 can cut more because that 10" rotation mass is more than likely to hog less power than the 12". The other reason is that Milwaukee is likely to use a array of 3.0Ah battery instead of 2.0Ah.

If y'all want to figure out how I came up w/ 810W ... just remember that the li-ion battery for power tools can push 15A each cell (or array) and each cell are rated @ 3.76V.
 

DerekV

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^yup I agree. I like that dewalt can be used w/ AC power. I'm absolutely not a fan of 12" blade and it depends on the industry (rough or fine work), but if you're a fan of Festool and their innovation, they use 10" blade and not 12". For me, M18 is the one to get.

In terms of electrical power, I did some math (I'm a li-ion battery junkie) and they both produce about the same power (watts) @ 810W. It's one info that I have not seen anybody discussed. It's a reason why the M18 can cut more because that 10" rotation mass is more than likely to hog less power than the 12". The other reason is that Milwaukee is likely to use a array of 3.0Ah battery instead of 2.0Ah.

If y'all want to figure out how I came up w/ 810W ... just remember that the li-ion battery for power tools can push 15A each cell (or array) and each cell are rated @ 3.76V.



Cells typically found in "premium" power tool batteries are typically rated for 20-25 amps of continuous discharge, not 15. Conservatively speaking, the M18 9.0 can provide 18v nominal * 60 amps = 1080 watts continuously (obviously until voltage starts to dip after some use). The Flexvolt batteries can put out the same wattage (54v nominal * 20 amps = 1080w), they just use 2 Ah cells vs. the 3 Ah cells in the Milwaukee, like you mentioned. Regardless, the Flexvolt could and should easily win the run time war since it has 2 packs aka 216 watt/hours of juice. The M18 9.0 only (ha, only) has 162 watt/hours of juice. That's 33% MORE energy at its disposal, and its blade is only 20% bigger.

I think the blade plays a factor, but I don't think it's as big as everyone thinks, although I could be wrong. I guess I have a hard time believing that the bigger blade consumes that much more energy. I think at the very least, it should have the same amount of run time. But it doesn't.

This shows that the Milwaukee is more efficient. It uses the juice when it needs to, like when a cut starts to load up the motor. I think the Dewalt uses extra power when it doesn't necessarily need to, which is probably why it "feels" more powerful to most users. It's like a 400hp V8 and a 400hp turbo 4cyl - which one consumes more fuel idling and cruising? The V8. Both make power, just one is more efficient overall, only asking for the juice when it's needed (i.e. when the turbo kicks in, otherwise it's a rinky dink 4cyl out of boost).

That's my theory at least. The Flexvolt tools have potential to be more efficient since they don't require nearly as much current (amps) to make the same power (watts), and current makes heat, and heat is bad. I don't know. The Milwaukee engineers really, really did their homework because an HD 18v battery powered tool shouldn't be better than a 54v one, but it is. The packs/motors/electronics are hard to match.
 

DerekV

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Back when Flexvolt was announced there were many people pointing out that the Flex to 60 was the same power as Milwaukees XC packs. But what is not known officially is if the Fuel motors actually run at 60v and within the tool it modifies the voltage vs Dewalt doing it on the battery. Agree that 12" in sliding is overkill and Dewalt could of maybe had slight edge in performance if they made it 10". The 2 batteries with the cost of them and slow charge time is going to be a tipping point to Milwaukee and all their new HD tools which run optimal on the 9.0. Plus the Dewalt costs more as a whole to begin with, if all things were equal an extra $200 for a cord option is not worth it. Add in Flexvolt batteries only charge in Flexvolt chargers and new Flex tools can only use Flex batteries (20v Max tools can use Flex batteries). Any M18 tool can use the 9.0 and existing chargers charge it.



Are you able to back up the claim that M18 Fuel tools run at 54/60v?
 

Trey T

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Cells typically found in "premium" power tool batteries are typically rated for 20-25 amps of continuous discharge, not 15. Conservatively speaking, the M18 9.0 can provide 18v nominal * 60 amps = 1080 watts continuously (obviously until voltage starts to dip after some use). The Flexvolt batteries can put out the same wattage (54v nominal * 20 amps = 1080w), they just use 2 Ah cells vs. the 3 Ah cells in the Milwaukee, like you mentioned. Regardless, the Flexvolt could and should easily win the run time war since it has 2 packs aka 216 watt/hours of juice. The M18 9.0 only (ha, only) has 162 watt/hours of juice. That's 33% MORE energy at its disposal, and its blade is only 20% bigger.

I think the blade plays a factor, but I don't think it's as big as everyone thinks, although I could be wrong. I guess I have a hard time believing that the bigger blade consumes that much more energy. I think at the very least, it should have the same amount of run time. But it doesn't.

This shows that the Milwaukee is more efficient. It uses the juice when it needs to, like when a cut starts to load up the motor. I think the Dewalt uses extra power when it doesn't necessarily need to, which is probably why it "feels" more powerful to most users. It's like a 400hp V8 and a 400hp turbo 4cyl - which one consumes more fuel idling and cruising? The V8. Both make power, just one is more efficient overall, only asking for the juice when it's needed (i.e. when the turbo kicks in, otherwise it's a rinky dink 4cyl out of boost).

That's my theory at least. The Flexvolt tools have potential to be more efficient since they don't require nearly as much current (amps) to make the same power (watts), and current makes heat, and heat is bad. I don't know. The Milwaukee engineers really, really did their homework because an HD 18v battery powered tool shouldn't be better than a 54v one, but it is. The packs/motors/electronics are hard to match.
You know ... you might be right ... the specs I gave was over 5yrs old, long before Fuel came along and long before anyone had overload protection.

current vs heat is a complicated topic ... sounds easy but it's a can of worm for forum .... lol. Let the engineer figure out the heat part for the SYSTEM, just focus on something tangible, the power it can produce ... aka the watts.
 
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Ign

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I think (based upon nothing except experience and perception) the 12" blade is a huge power hog. Seems to me power necessary increases exponentially as blade size increases. At the very least I don't believe it's proportional, ie 20% more blade requires 20% more power.

Of course assuming all other things equal, eg tooth count, rake etc.

Again, I have no science behind this, just how it SEEMS to ME.

I have to wonder if DeWalt had gone 10" if they'd crush all competitors in terms of run time, number of cuts etc
 

username2

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I read that site's articles on new battery tech, and was thinking about how that world is changing pretty rapidly. I wonder how long the tool companies go this time before they obsolete everything again.
 

Ign

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I read that site's articles on new battery tech, and was thinking about how that world is changing pretty rapidly. I wonder how long the tool companies go this time before they obsolete everything again.

A LONG time. The cordless market has stabilized and is nothing like it was 15 years ago.

They will eventually change, yes, but Milwaukee is so heavily invested in the M platforms they would HAVE TO continue to support for years alongside anything new.

The bigger fear is that new attempts (like Flexvolt) flop in the market (highly unlikely) and are discontinued. But even then the batts work in the "20 volt" tools.

edit: if anything OneKey may flop, but the tools will still work just fine
 

DerekV

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No, but people have had theories on that which none are confirmed.



Hmm, yeah I'll believe it when I see it. There are efficiency losses (heat) when voltage is bucked/boosted, and something tells me Milwaukee would take the most efficient route.
 

DerekV

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I think (based upon nothing except experience and perception) the 12" blade is a huge power hog. Seems to me power necessary increases exponentially as blade size increases. At the very least I don't believe it's proportional, ie 20% more blade requires 20% more power.

Of course assuming all other things equal, eg tooth count, rake etc.

Again, I have no science behind this, just how it SEEMS to ME.

I have to wonder if DeWalt had gone 10" if they'd crush all competitors in terms of run time, number of cuts etc



I want to agree with you mainly because I have a really hard time believing the Dewalt is THAT much more inefficient than the Milwaukee - making notably fewer cuts while having more energy overall (more w/hrs). It likely has more to do with inertia.

Where is the weight in a blade? If the teeth make up a good portion of its weight, having more of them and moving them out further from the center point will definitely require more work to spin them up. How much more...I don't know...I don't know any inertia formulas off-hand.

Of course, someone who owns a Flexvolt miter saw could just throw on a 10" blade and do a run time test...that'd be the easiest way to see if it's ONLY the blade affecting the results.
 

Bremon

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The blade on the 12" is 20% bigger in diameter than the 10". The blade itself is more than 20% bigger though.

3.14 * 5 * 5 = 78.5 sq inches
3.14 * 6 * 6 = 113 sq inches

The 12" has 44% more surface area than the 10".

I like the portability of the 10" but the capacity of the 12". The hybrid capability of the Dewalt is appealing, the batteries are a wash for me. Milwaukee has me excited for the 9.0 because tons of promos are coming to Canada (following the USA lead). The 2-pack of FlexVolt is cheaper than a standalone HD9.0.
 

Bremon

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Just had time to watch, interesting. I will say I am not a yellow fan, but I thought this new technology is really cool. Obviously not apples to apples as the Dewalt is running a 12 inch blade.

What I found most interesting was the recharge times (45 min Milwaukee vs >2 hrs DeWalt) and the Dewalt needs a minimum of two batteries at approximately 300 retail.

No clear winner as DeWalt can be plugged in but the performance advantage/disadvantages seem less obvious than one would assume.

All the data I can find says that the HD9.0 takes 95 minutes to. Hedge on the rapid charger (5 amp output?) and 180 on the standard M18 charger (3 amp output).

FlexVolt charge time on the rapid charger is 1 hour. This article would lead me to believe that the FlexVolt batteries are charged one at a time on the dual port charger which, if so, is a misstep by Dewalt.

Edit: looked it up; single battery FlexVolt charger outputs 8 amps for 1-hour charger time. The dual port charges both at the same time, but at only 4 amps for a 2 hour charge time. Not great.
 
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