kctyphoon
Banned
'sup DeWalt?
(I just saw a guy with flexvolt tools crying in the corner)
(I just saw a guy with flexvolt tools crying in the corner)
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Milwaukee's new CORDLESS JACKHAMMER
- Thread starter kctyphoon
- Start date
chipjumper
Well-known member
We’ll see the full review at X Hamster...
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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
American Locomotive
Well-known member
You know a comparison is legit when they have to spray-paint and hide competitor's identity.
Some sleuthing shows that the corded hammer they're comparing to is a Bosch BH2760VC, which is one of the weaker 65-70 lb class electric hammers on the market. Even within Bosch's lineup, it's one of their weaker models. Competing models are around 30% more powerful...
Wonder why they didn't compare it to a Hilti TE 3000-AVR or Makita HM1812X3, both of which are in the same weight class and have a higher published impact energy than the Milwaukee...?
Some sleuthing shows that the corded hammer they're comparing to is a Bosch BH2760VC, which is one of the weaker 65-70 lb class electric hammers on the market. Even within Bosch's lineup, it's one of their weaker models. Competing models are around 30% more powerful...
Wonder why they didn't compare it to a Hilti TE 3000-AVR or Makita HM1812X3, both of which are in the same weight class and have a higher published impact energy than the Milwaukee...?
strutaeng
Well-known member
Dang, that thing looks huge! So what happens when the battery dies? Charge overnight? Looks like it will make a great boat anchor in a few years, LOL.
Hipsters can break a few chunks of concrete and save the day. That't cute!
Meanwhile, the real men get the job done with the right tool.
Hipsters can break a few chunks of concrete and save the day. That't cute!
Meanwhile, the real men get the job done with the right tool.
dutchgray
Well-known member
Im sure buying a good corded breaker and a nice Honda generator to power it will work out cheaper knowing Milwaukee's pricing. Not going to be any use for those that have days worth of concrete demo ahead of them.
All of the product comparisons ive seen, the companies always paint the other companies tools. I assume its trademark issues. If it competes with a 45lb breaker, thats all it needs to do.. you ever use a 70lb breaker before? How’d it work out when the bit gets stuck? How’d ya feel after using it?
The vendor we use doesn't even buy anything over 45lb hydraulic breakers anymore. NO utility companies want them. We break up small pieces of sidewalks. A guy breaking up a basement floor to install new plumbing for a bathroom demo, or French drains doesnt need a heavy jackhammer.
I love you guys I swear.. company invents a cordless jackhammer that competes with a corded model from a premium brand - and your criticism is “its not rated as good as the BEST corded models”.. lmao.. yea -let’s ignore itll do like 80% of what people use electric breakers for.
Doesn’t makita have, or their coming out with a breaker that runs off battery packs? Think you have to wear a backpack for the batteries.. cause ya know - swinging a jackhammer around ain’t enough to do..
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American Locomotive
Well-known member
You can show another company's products as long as your demonstration is fair and accurate. You see it often on things like HF's products, where they will do direct call outs to name-brand items. As long as you're not making the information up, you can use another brand's product.
Milwaukee likes to obfuscate competitors during these demos, because they're often using competitor's tools that are in entirely different classes and price ranges (often smaller, weaker classes)
Except the MX Fuel breaker weighs 64 pounds (kind of the whole point of that video, where you see the two hammers hanging off a balance). If Milwaukee's 64 pound breaker competes with a 45 pound unit, then it's a failure.
And only slightly less portable at the moment. You can also run as long as the generator has fuel. I know it says that they can break 2 tons of concrete on one charge which is pretty damn decent right out the gate
strutaeng
Well-known member
I was going to say the 2 ton estimate sounds like a lot, but it actually is not that much...
Around a 6"x6'x6' area. If you have rebar, that's going to be much less. They DO put reinforcement in concrete, right?
That's the marketing dept. optimism. You know, batteries get old, chisels get dull, operator fatigue, etc.
Around a 6"x6'x6' area. If you have rebar, that's going to be much less. They DO put reinforcement in concrete, right?
That's the marketing dept. optimism. You know, batteries get old, chisels get dull, operator fatigue, etc.
Not necessarily.. there are 45 pound breakers that work better than heavier units. Some electric breakers (like Bosch) are slow. They dont hit fast. The more energy they might release just from being heavier doesnt gain you anything when something else hits twice as fast. Not to mention that as long as the thing breaks what you need it for - thats all that matters.
Plugging in hydraulic hoses *****. Quick connects dont always like to cooperate, and youre lucky if you have 25’ of hose (two hoses actually) on a retractable reel. You wanna use a compressor, youre towing a trailer, and they are loud. Electric - bring a generator or hope the inverter on the truck handles it. Enjoy tripping over hoses and cords for all the above, and you are bound to the length you have with you, and youre done breaking if an idiot hits the cord or hose while working.
Companies WILL buy a cordless breaker, for the same reasons they buy everything else cordless. And with this - it makes sense since there is an entire system of other tools that will work with that battery.
Half the guys on this forum ragged on the M18 chainsaw being compared to a gas saw. I can tell you that a gas saw has not been started since we got those M18’s at work. I dont even have a gas saw, or want one on my truck anymore. Another guy i work with has 3 chainsaws on his truck.. a gas Stihl, a corded Husqvarna, and the M18. The milwaukee is the only one being used since he got it.
And then theres the obvious.. show me your cordless electric breaker alternative...
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Farmall450
Well-known member
I tent to agree. This is getting to the point where corded tools do still have a purpose...if you can't easily carry it, it probably wouldn't hurt to be corded
KnurledNut
Well-known member
Man, i bet that did a number on the exhibition center floor. 
Hope they brought some portland and a cordless margin trowel....
I could see that Milwaukee being handy for driving tent stakes or small demolition. But my rotary hammer could have done what they displayed. Find a 10” 20 year old industrial slab with rebar and a 5000+ mix and show us what it does. Thats real life for concrete bouncers.
Ive used Hitachi, Bosch, Hilti, pneumatic jackhammer, and a skidsteer with a hydraulic hammer. The pneumatic was incredibly strong , but unforgiving and painful to use. With electric, the best ive used was BY FAR the Hilti TE3000AVR. That new Milwaukee is no match for a real hammer on a real job.
You can tell the way those guys are holding the hammers for the demo that they have minimal experience with that type of work in real life. You know, the ol’ push-down-harder-bc-itll break-harder thing...that rookies do...
Hope they brought some portland and a cordless margin trowel....
I could see that Milwaukee being handy for driving tent stakes or small demolition. But my rotary hammer could have done what they displayed. Find a 10” 20 year old industrial slab with rebar and a 5000+ mix and show us what it does. Thats real life for concrete bouncers.
Ive used Hitachi, Bosch, Hilti, pneumatic jackhammer, and a skidsteer with a hydraulic hammer. The pneumatic was incredibly strong , but unforgiving and painful to use. With electric, the best ive used was BY FAR the Hilti TE3000AVR. That new Milwaukee is no match for a real hammer on a real job.
You can tell the way those guys are holding the hammers for the demo that they have minimal experience with that type of work in real life. You know, the ol’ push-down-harder-bc-itll break-harder thing...that rookies do...
Everyone clowning this thing comparing it to the BEST of corded hammer. ITS THE FIRST OF ITS KIND. please engineer a better version yourself
Any product in its infancy will have drawbacks, I remember when cordless Ni cad 7.2 tools came out and all the guys laughed as well, now we have 18v tools to rival the best of air and corded. Give it time
Any product in its infancy will have drawbacks, I remember when cordless Ni cad 7.2 tools came out and all the guys laughed as well, now we have 18v tools to rival the best of air and corded. Give it time
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this world is getting crazier by the day
American Locomotive
Well-known member
The point is Milwaukee is overselling it. It's a premium priced 65 pound hammer, and they're comparing it to low end 65 pound hammers. The Milwaukee faithful on here keep back pedaling saying things like "first of its kind" or "only needs to compete with a 45 pound hammer". How about Milwaukee just compares it fairly to a similarly priced, class and weight plug in hammer?
You guys keep going on and on about how the M18 and MX stuff is a complete corded and gas powered replacement lineup, but then constantly back pedal and say it's not fair to compare them to comparably priced and weight pro corded and gas tools.
2 tons of concrete is NOT a lot. Especially since that is almost certainly 2 tons of garbage poorly mixed quikrete. Not 5000 PSI rebar reinforced concrete that you're more likely to find. If you're going to be using it all day on a serious job, you're going to need a cord and generator anyways to charge your batteries.
I think it's an interesting tool, but I don't enjoy how misleading all of Milwaukees marketing is. Same thing happened last year when they compared their $400.or whatevee electric saw to Stihl's cheapest homeowner saw.
You guys keep going on and on about how the M18 and MX stuff is a complete corded and gas powered replacement lineup, but then constantly back pedal and say it's not fair to compare them to comparably priced and weight pro corded and gas tools.
2 tons of concrete is NOT a lot. Especially since that is almost certainly 2 tons of garbage poorly mixed quikrete. Not 5000 PSI rebar reinforced concrete that you're more likely to find. If you're going to be using it all day on a serious job, you're going to need a cord and generator anyways to charge your batteries.
I think it's an interesting tool, but I don't enjoy how misleading all of Milwaukees marketing is. Same thing happened last year when they compared their $400.or whatevee electric saw to Stihl's cheapest homeowner saw.
It's definitely not gonna be replacing any corded hammers anytime soon that's for sure and I'm no Milwaukee nuthugger however it's a brand new product and hyping is part of the game.
If you think this is bad take a look at the supplement industry I was in where shady companies promised 25 lbs of lean muscle off of deer antler velvet and creatine. Makes the tool industry seem like saints
If you think this is bad take a look at the supplement industry I was in where shady companies promised 25 lbs of lean muscle off of deer antler velvet and creatine. Makes the tool industry seem like saints
Why would PRICE be the determining factor of comparison? Do SO guys say it's not right to compare SO ratchets to HF cause they cost 10x as much? You can't have it both ways. What's the most popular corded model bought? Bosch Brute? We bought 12 of those like 7 yrs back and everybody hates them. You don't think it's FAIR to compare the first true cordless electric breaker to some models cause the CORDLESS one costs more? That fact it provides its own power source is meaningless? That's insanity.
Your argument is like saying a cordless drill can't replace a corded one for SOME people, cause at some point the battery will go dead, and corded models exist that are stronger... Yet - here we are, with millions of em out there. You realize that there are tons of people out there who's jobs require the occasional use of a jackhammer, but DONT need to use it for very long...
If someone dropped you off in the morning in front of someone's house that was getting their sidewalk replaced, and the only cordless alternative was a sledge hammer, you gonna tell me you wouldn't use this cordless model if it was offered? I thought so...
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American Locomotive
Well-known member
Because price is literally one of the main driving factors of any purchase? It's likely asking why I don't compare a Ford Fiesta to a Mercedes Benz A-Class. They're both in the same class, but they are targeted at two completely different markets.
Price is always a component of comparison, always. I've never claimed otherwise.
Bosch has many models of "Brute". It's not insanity - if you're going to do an honest "speed" or "power" comparison showing how your product is a cordless replacement, then don't cherry pick a weak item to compare it to. Most newer corded hammers on the market like the Hilti TE 3000 or Makita HM 1812X3 deliver significantly more impact energy than the original "Bosch Brute". That's why Bosch now has the "Brute Turbo". They should be comparing to THOSE hammers.
No, my argument is saying it's ridiculous to prop up how awesome your tool is against a competitor, but you're literally comparing it against one of the worst examples of its class. It's like Milwaukee claiming their new cordless drill has as much power and torque as a Hole Hawg, but their comparison has it matched up against a $15 Black & Decker 1.5 amp corded drill.
Once again you're putting words in my mouth. I never claimed it was a bad tool, or that I wouldn't use it.If someone dropped you off in the morning in front of someone's house that was getting their sidewalk replaced, and the only cordless alternative was a sledge hammer, you gonna tell me you wouldn't use this cordless model if it was offered? I thought so...
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Retroman
Well-known member
Lets put some wire mesh in that trench area and see how it does, With no reinforcing you don't need a JH to tear out a trench. No market for this tool homeowners don't need one and concrete cutters like myself use a air hammer or the Hilti 3000 electric where dust is a issue.
strutaeng
Well-known member
Why would PRICE be the determining factor of comparison? Do SO guys say it's not right to compare SO ratchets to HF cause they cost 10x as much? You can't have it both ways. What's the most popular corded model bought? Bosch Brute? We bought 12 of those like 7 yrs back and everybody hates them. You don't think it's FAIR to compare the first true cordless electric breaker to some models cause the CORDLESS one costs more? That fact it provides its own power source is meaningless? That's insanity.
Your argument is like saying a cordless drill can't replace a corded one for SOME people, cause at some point the battery will go dead, and corded models exist that are stronger... Yet - here we are, with millions of em out there. You realize that there are tons of people out there who's jobs require the occasional use of a jackhammer, but DONT need to use it for very long...
If someone dropped you off in the morning in front of someone's house that was getting their sidewalk replaced, and the only cordless alternative was a sledge hammer, you gonna tell me you wouldn't use this cordless model if it was offered? I thought so...
I've done my share of concrete demolition work, from a brute to a 15 lb. sledge hammer. In reality, the 15lb mass of steel swinging over your head is underrated. Yes, it takes grunt, but that's the nature of the concrete demolition beast.
I would take the $25 sledge vs a $2,000 toy for your scenario, honestly. If you can't swing a sledge hammer, you are too old or weak for this type of work, that just the truth.
I've hired work out and I swear, those guys are beasts. Latest one showed up with a dually Duramax flatbed and a 200 CFM Sullair. Guy does contract work for utility company. $200 later and 6 tons of concrete demolished in under 1 hour! These guys don't mess around.
You got to be smart, not cute.
Bigblockyeti
Banned
It's not Milwaukee, it's TTI. Milwaukee used to be a really good tool company when owned by Atlas Copco, when they sold out everything that was formerly make in Brookfield, WI, Germany Czechoslovakia & Japan went straight to China. Anyone remember the V18 fiasco, they sold a bunch of expensive tools then abandoned the platform with no reverse compatibility so $1000 worth of tools new were worth $25 five years later.
The slab rolled over on the pallet jack looked like it was wet in the truck less than 5 hours prior, the slabs used for testing had at least 20 hours more drying time.
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Farmall450
Well-known member
No, but that's the only arguing point FOR HF, etc tools.
If we can't look at price why is anyone buying HF, or advocating for it? Price aside, there is no feasible way in which it can standup to SO. Obviously, price is a major factor, especially for smaller & one man shows.
This is a typical fantasy response from someone 'talking' about doing the work. Any person that's gonna post that they would pick a sledge hammer over a jackhammer for any reasonable job a person WOULD normally use a jackhammer for - is full of ****. Sorry - but that's the truth. U obviously haven't swung a sledge long enough.. lol.. just stop..
Why is price NOT the determining factor here? Lol I dunno, they just made the first full sized cordless jackhammer with a removable and replaceable battery pack.. in 50 years if someone markets the world's first nuclear powered jackhammer that never runs out of fuel - I assume everyone will disregard the nuclear reactor part of the price and consider it "just a jackhammer"
The CORDLESS part IS the innovation, and you guys think that's not worth more money?? Imagine that..
The CORDLESS part IS the innovation, and you guys think that's not worth more money?? Imagine that..
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dutchgray
Well-known member
Actually for unreinforced sidewalk type concrete, a digging bar and a sledge if far faster than an electric breaker, but generally you want a breaker as whilst they are pretty unpleasant things they do work well. Electric breakers are all weak and slow compared to a portable hydraulic which is itself hopeless compared to a pneumatic one, an excavator with a hydraulic breaker on, that is the absolute best way to break concrete.
I think the worst concrete breaking job I have ever done involved a pneumatic road breaker, breaking a concrete wall with the breaker sat on one guys shoulder whilst another guy stood on a platform operating it, it wasn't much fun.
This cordless breaker, Im sure it works but Im also sure that it will fit the needs of a tiny percentage of users such that they will never be common. Breakers are one of those tools that you hire when you want one as they generally aren't worth owning, unless your a massive construction company with enough work for one all the time, we only own a small electric breaker in my company and hire anything bigger.
I don't see hire companies buying them as they will be more expensive and they won't care about the cordless convenience.
Utilities are probably the only sector I see it making sense, as you guys have to take everything you need for a job on the truck and are move around so much you can never get set up properly. The cost factor is also not a problem for that size business versus the losses incurred when the service is down.
neophyte
Well-known member
All of the product comparisons ive seen, the companies always paint the other companies tools. I assume its trademark issues. If it competes with a 45lb breaker, thats all it needs to do.. you ever use a 70lb breaker before? How’d it work out when the bit gets stuck? How’d ya feel after using it?
The vendor we use doesn't even buy anything over 45lb hydraulic breakers anymore. NO utility companies want them. We break up small pieces of sidewalks. A guy breaking up a basement floor to install new plumbing for a bathroom demo, or French drains doesnt need a heavy jackhammer.
I love you guys I swear.. company invents a cordless jackhammer that competes with a corded model from a premium brand - and your criticism is “its not rated as good as the BEST corded models”.. lmao.. yea -let’s ignore itll do like 80% of what people use electric breakers for.
Doesn’t makita have, or their coming out with a breaker that runs off battery packs? Think you have to wear a backpack for the batteries.. cause ya know - swinging a jackhammer around ain’t enough to do..
It’s illegal in certain European countries, to post comparison tests of products for commercial purposes that show the the brands you’re testing against, or at keast I believe this has been mentioned in regards to Germany, and I’ve seen tool tests from other Euro countries like Sweden were obscuring competing brands is also standard.
It’s possible it’s done to prevent lawsuits, or it may be required for companies that are testing their products against competing brands.
Tests done by independsnt third parties like testing agencies and tool magazines don’t seem to need to hide brand names, whereas manufacturers like Hultafors do, so it likely has to do with potential bias in testing.
Obscuring competitors with grey or black paint, even if the brand may still seem to be recognizeable to those with experience seems to be acceptable.
While this is a test in the USA, the video would be viewable around the world to most places, so this may have been done out of consideration for international laws.
that's kind of what i thought i when i read the first post and on the first post of many of his other milwaukee threads. i read all the way to the end and saw this.
that is a great question though?
why do you start so many topics like that?
WittHay
Well-known member
Interesting how long it has been since Milwaukee was American owned. 1995 to 2005 Swedish Atlas Copco and 2005 to present Hong Kong TTI
I didnt think there was a huge demand for cordless equipment but somebody in Hong Kong must have liked the idea and okayed the R+D and production.
I am guessing the MX line is for environmentally conscious and money is no object government works departments and public funded utilities. No noisy, pollution emitting generators or small gas engines. Enough battery capacity to do small jobs
TTI/Milwaukee is building a new factory in Mexico employing 2600 people and expected to be in production by 2020. Just wondering if the MX line will be built at the TTI/Ryobi factory in China or the new one in Mexico.
WittHay
Well-known member
I like cordless and use it extensively because it sure beats lugging around a generator or firing up and listening to a gas powered air compressor to run air tools.
I dont think that regular consumer use cordless has come far enough to replace corded never mind demanding commercial class equipment. The run time isnt there on sawzalls, sds hammers, grinders, chop saws and other tools.
The MX line looks heavy compared to the industry standards and are at least a $1000 more than the equivalent corded or gas. I am not knocking Milwaukee for being innovative but I would like to see what companys or government departments/utilities adopt this new technology.
The average person rents this stuff as needed. At what point or how far in the future does a guy walk into a rental place and come out with a cordless jackhammer or cutoff saw, along with 3 batteries and a charger.
I dont think that regular consumer use cordless has come far enough to replace corded never mind demanding commercial class equipment. The run time isnt there on sawzalls, sds hammers, grinders, chop saws and other tools.
The MX line looks heavy compared to the industry standards and are at least a $1000 more than the equivalent corded or gas. I am not knocking Milwaukee for being innovative but I would like to see what companys or government departments/utilities adopt this new technology.
The average person rents this stuff as needed. At what point or how far in the future does a guy walk into a rental place and come out with a cordless jackhammer or cutoff saw, along with 3 batteries and a charger.
Was the first iteration of 18 volt stuff TTI? I feel like that garbage came out either prior to or just after the ownership change.
I think with the new tools they will have their place and I'm sure will sell, thou I dont think small companies or personal use will be buying much of them.
The rental part does make sense as you get away from the risk that comes with premixed gas engines, for what it's worth my uncle used that chops last summer and was quite impressed.
Bighead38
Well-known member
I can see this being really useful for indoor demolition and renovation.