Mini-split ac systems

[fishhab]

I am getting bids on having a mini-split AC system installed (2 different units - one on each side of the building to cool different rooms. From what I have found so far, having an heating and cooling company install these makes them very costly vs buying the unit on-line and maybe installing it yourself. Bids are about $3,000-$3500 per unit installed for about 12,000 BTU and only a 13.5 Seer unit. I can buy the same unit and installation parts on-line for at least half of that.

Have any of you had experience installing these, or have thoughts on self-installing vs professional installation? Other than having lines vacated and/or charged, the installation looks pretty straightforward.

 

[krooser]

They look ez to install to me.

I'd buy locally so you have tech support and local service... I doubt that the guy at the end of the 1-800 line will come over to fix it if it breaks.

 

[fishhab]

Thanks krooser - I tend to agree, it just seems like they are asking an awful lot for what looks to be an ez installation (they even admitted that it would take them only 2-4 hours). $1500 for 3 hours work looks pretty high - but, as you said, if warranty problems or something, it would be a hassle.

 

[rickairmedic]

Fishnfab it sounds like somebody is padding but I dont know where you live. I would install either of them for around $2400.00 - $2500.00 but where you live the cost of living may be higher than it is in Kentucky. I will also say you most likely wont be purchasing them locally unless you know someone in the HVAC trade that can order them for you . Most of my ditributors wont sell to someone off the street only to a licensed proffesional.

 

[fishhab]

Thanks RickAirMedic: I live in Wyoming and I doubt that any of the "few" HAVC companies here would sell without installing. I see several systems on the web that appear to sell these units, and these sites "suggest" that they can be easily installed (and will even offer tech assistance). But, I suspect that one might void the warranty if not done by a licensed contractor. I sure don't mind paying for a professional install, but at $1000 to $1500 more than the cost of the unit and parts, it seems like a ripoff. After reviewing how to install these on the web, I am convinced I could do it, but would need a HAVC to check and/or charge the system - I assume. Do you do any installs as far away as Wyoming?

 

[rickairmedic]

Fishnfab I have to admit I usually dont get that far out . I go to Fla twice a year to check my moms system out but thats in the wrong direction and she usually has a list of other fun things for me to fix while I am there. I will say if you do the install yourself and have a PRo come out to do the Vacuum and charge and make sure everything is right there shouldnt be a reason the warranty would be voided.

Rick

 

[Vicegrip]

Wow $3.5K per unit for small low end? Must be a hard instal of some kind.

Call and talk to the internet sellers about warrantee. For the added cost of a vacuum pump and gauge set or to pay a guy to evacuate it you could save a lot of money. They are not rocket science and can be done if you are an advanced DIY. They come pre charged with the correct charge for most often about 25 feet of line. The newer ones do not use depleting gasses.

i am going to be helping on a DIY install on a Mitsu Mr. Slim unit and will photo document the install. Under $2K for a 16SEER 19000 BTU heat pump.

rickairmedic. you need to start shipping your tools and flying out to job sites.

 

[Rolling_Thunder]

Im looking the Ramsond 18,000 BTU split unit with a Heating strip in it for those extra cold days! The unit comes pre-charged and ready to go. Just set the unit mount the inside unit power it, connect the refrigerant lines and your done. The company said its a very simple install but their tech support is there if you need it! Right now Im insulating and putting up 15/32 plywood as walls. So I'll be ordering the unit in the next week or 2!

http://www.ramsond.com/proddetail.php?prod=R51GW&cat=Ductless Mini Split AC Systems

 

[rickairmedic]

Wow $3.5K per unit for small low end? Must be a hard instal of some kind.

Call and talk to the internet sellers about warrantee. For the added cost of a vacuum pump and gauge set or to pay a guy to evacuate it you could save a lot of money. They are not rocket science and can be done if you are an advanced DIY. They come pre charged with the correct charge for most often about 25 feet of line. The newer ones do not use depleting gasses.

i am going to be helping on a DIY install on a Mitsu Mr. Slim unit and will photo document the install. Under $2K for a 16SEER 19000 BTU heat pump.

rickairmedic. you need to start shipping your tools and flying out to job sites.

LOL Vicegrip if enough of you guys would do it I could most likely make a decent living undercutting the competition .

Rick

 

[JakeD]

I DIY installed a Mr Slim 16.2k unit this winter in my garage. It was more time consuming than I had predicted, but not exactly shooting monkeys into orbit if you know what I mean. I still need to get someone out to put a vacuum pump and gauges on it. But I definitely have under $2000 in it all together, including electrical, pad, and lineset cover.

It took me an afternoon including a trip to Lowes to dig out the area for the condenser pad, gravel/sand and set and level the pavers, and then to do something with the leftover dirt. I used pavers rather than a single prepoured pad because they were easy enough for me to handle alone and gave the look I was after.

I also had to run the conduit, wire and set up the service disconnect and whip for the 220 to the condenser. Again, counting a trip or two to the store, it took me another Saturday afternoon. The great thing is that I got to spend some extra time and no only get it right, but also with a nice finished look.

Took me another afternoon to hang the evaporator and hook up the lineset and indoor/outdoor wiring. The Mr Slim came with a pretty thorough install manual. It's clearly one of the more expensive brands, and I don't have experience with the cheaper ones, but everything seemed sturdy and well thought out.

The only challenging things a guy might have trouble with would be the electrical and cutting/flaring the lineset. If you're a decent DIY'er, like almost everyone who enjoys this site, I'd encourage you to go for it.

BTW, I bought these lineset covers:
http://www.minisplitsystems.com/cgi/display.cgi?item_num=DHS1010

While somewhat expensive, I really like the way they look compared to a bare black insulated line running up my garage wall.

 

[S351r]

it seems a little high to me BUT you have to understand that companies have expences they have to cover such as payroll, insurance, workers comp,trucks, tools of the trade (which are not cheap to buy or replace) and most of all the guys knowledge how to do the job corectly.a union apprentice ship takes five years of a guys life, that should be worth something? not to mention the warranty coverage, because if you do not pay extra up front there is no warranty. i know everybody wants a deal but there is alot of things about this buissness people do not know about that has to be paid for with money that has to come from somewhere! so for that 1500 dollars you get a unit installed profesionaly, your house is not burnt down,the unit works like it should and you have a 5 year or maybe a 10 year warranty. just my two cents.
thank you

 

[rickairmedic]

351 I will go along with all of that except the Union part . You most likely will never see a union HVAC tech on a residential job at least not in my neck of the woods around here the union run shops are doing the major commercial jobs. I agree there are expenses that alot of peaple dont begin to think about . The few customers I have told what I paid just for yellow page advertising all pretty much had a coronary at that point and thats a cheap bill as bills go in this business.

Rick

 

[S351r]

Rick
hello i am sorry about venting. i agree about the union guy on residential units. i just happen to be a union member which does chillers and refrigeration for a living but every once and a while doing some residential for extra cash and when you tell people a price they always say they think it is too much. but do not take in the effect that tools and my knowledge and time is not cheap if it was simple and cheap everyone would have the tools and everyone would do their own air! most of the time it seems people wnat to give you 200 bucks and then call you in the middle of the night and demand you come look at their system 5 years later.sorry if this seems like bitching but people do have exspences that are not always obvious to most.
Rick take care and i hope for you it gets unbarably hot there in ky for you and your buissness.
Lance

 

[rickairmedic]

Lance you are right there are alot of people out there that dont want to pay what things are worth especially in the service industry. I do run into them and my prices are more than fair so when I run into them I tell them if they can get a better price from some one equally qualified then they should by all means have that person do their job. I still have to agree though $3500.00 each for 2 mini split systems going into the same location is nuts . I could fly myself and my tools out there and do the job then enjoy a week off for that price . I dont think I have quoted a mini split yet over $2400.00 and honestly thats still $1000.00 + profit before uncle same and everybody else get their cuts. I can put one in in 4 hours if I am having a slow day 2 hours if I am rushing to get to another job. I like to pull a 1/2-3/4 hour vacuum.


Rick

 

[S351r]

Rick
I too believe that price is a little crazy!! I was just talking in general for every crazy price 10 correct prices are said to seem like too much.I always said that if i was to go out on my own my buisness name would be (the guy up the street) because you would not beleive me how many times i have heard ( well the guy up the street can do it for alot less) and when i hear that i just walk away and wave to every guy i see while driving up the street and wishing them luck.
Lance

 

[redsky49]

I can put one in in 4 hours if I am having a slow day 2 hours if I am rushing to get to another job. I like to pull a 1/2-3/4 hour vacuum.


Rick

Rick, I am curious. I don't do installs for a living, just for my own use (I'm on the design end for commercial projects).

With the pre-charged piping and quick connects on these units, is there really any need to pull a vacuum on these units? That is, unless there were problems on hook-up or start up. Since these seem to be owner installed for a lot of guys here on the forum, I doubt if any of them have the means to withdraw and store the refrigerant, or have a vacuum pump. And none of them are licensed to handle refrigerants.

And you only draw down the units for a short time. Can you pull a deep enough vacuum (-29") to boil out all the water, or are you using this as a leak test? And what do you do if you are installing this on a really cold day?
Pre-heat the system?

Just curious. Thanks

 

[Vicegrip]

Rick, I am curious. I don't do installs for a living, just for my own use (I'm on the design end for commercial projects).

With the pre-charged piping and quick connects on these units, is there really any need to pull a vacuum on these units? That is, unless there were problems on hook-up or start up. Since these seem to be owner installed for a lot of guys here on the forum, I doubt if any of them have the means to withdraw and store the refrigerant, or have a vacuum pump. And none of them are licensed to handle refrigerants.

And you only draw down the units for a short time. Can you pull a deep enough vacuum (-29") to boil out all the water, or are you using this as a leak test? And what do you do if you are installing this on a really cold day?
Pre-heat the system?

Just curious. Thanks

Pardon the **** in. I do com HVAC as a building engineer. The Splits come with the charge in the condenser side. The line sets normally are not quick connect with foil disks but are flair conect. The vap side and lines are open and have air in them. This air needs to be evacuated. As to water in the system. A reasonable vacuum will get 99.9% moisture in most small systems. If there were a few microns of moisture left it would not be enough to cause issue or would be caught by the filter dryer. I have a big vac pump as a small loop at work is 25 pounds. It will pull a split down real fast.

Before the CFC issues and EPA laws many people DID do their own air. You could buy them at Sears. DIY is becoming a lost art.

Why are non depleting gas systems EPA restricted? Why not sell them over the counter?

 

[rickairmedic]

Red honestly I havent put any in with a precharged lineset yet most of the mini splits I have done so far I had to make a lineset I am pretty sure thata only the condensor comes precharged not the lineset or evap coil . On vacuuming I am after 500 microns and can usually hit that in under 20 minutes I can usually hit -30" of vacuum in 5 -10 minutes . I just leave the pump hooked up while I am wrapping up other things doesnt hurt anything to let it pull a while longer . I would say if you are using a factory charged lineset and factory charged Evap and Condensor then theres no need for a vacuum or any other expensive tools or for that matter an installer. I deal mostly with residential service and also replacement systems . I honestly have not done alot of mini splits yet other than the occasional one for a local nusing home that is moving away from PTAC's. I do installs on really cold days and usually I dont turn them on till the next day . I hook up the 220 so the compressor heaters can kick in but I leave the control wires disconected until the unit has had power for at least 12 hours to preheat the oil in the compressor. I am a huge fan of dual fuel systtems ( or what everybody is now calling Hybrid Heat ) . I was doing it years before the Hybrid concept kicked in in my area its the best thing going . We dont spend alot of time below 35* here so by combining a High efficiency gas or propane furnace with a heat pump you get much lower gas/propane bills but still dont get whacked for electric when it drops under 35* which is where a standard straight electric heat pump system bites you. This isnt an option yet on minisplits although I would say it will become one in the future we already have hanging heaters and heat pump mini splits its only a matter of time before some smart company figures out how to combine them as a package deal.


Rick

 

[rickairmedic]

Pardon the **** in. I do com HVAC as a building engineer. The Splits come with the charge in the condenser side. The line sets normally are not quick connect with foil disks but are flair conect. The vap side and lines are open and have air in them. This air needs to be evacuated. As to water in the system. A reasonable vacuum will get 99.9% moisture in most small systems. If there were a few microns of moisture left it would not be enough to cause issue or would be caught by the filter dryer. I have a big vac pump as a small loop at work is 25 pounds. It will pull a split down real fast.

Before the CFC issues and EPA laws many people DID do their own air. You could buy them at Sears. DIY is becoming a lost art.

Why are non depleting gas systems EPA restricted? Why not sell them over the counter?

To answer your last question if anybody could buy a non depleting system and do it themselves We would be out of a Job . I actually had this discussion with one of my suppliers today as one of my guys showed up there without his journeymans card and they wouldnt sell him an air proving switch . I think the counter guy thought I was gonna jump his ***. I praised him for it Their company policy is if you dont have a card you dont need to be working on HVAC equipmant . I was able to give them his card number and they let him have the part but I also told him ( My guy ) if he didnt have his card in his wallet or truck tomorrow just stay home . There are 2 supply houses in Louisville that will sell pretty much anything to anybody with the exception of R-22 I refuse to shop at either of them due to this fact . They are taking food off of my table selling parts to Joe Homeowner instead of telling him to call a pro and have it done . I will also say I have done a few jobs recently where Joe homeowner tried to fix it himself and spent several hundred dollars on parts and they still had to call me cause it didnt work most of these cases ended up being a part I priced at $50.00 or less so even with my service call they would have come out cheaper calling me first rather than trying to fix it themselves.


Rick

 

[redsky49]

All this gets back to my core concern. Some projects are easily within the capability of any reasonably handy person. Other projects are better farmed out to a qualified professional.

I had a much longer response concerning safety, but I will keep that to myself.



Good to hear that there is a good alternative to heat pumps going to resistance heat at lower temps. Should be some interesting changes in the future if energy research starts to seriously target residential energy usage.

Regards,
Redsky49

 

[fishhab]

Thanks all - great forum.

Update: I got two bids for one single 2T and one double 2T; runs are 15' lineset for single and about 60'total to run the 2 units of the double - about $8,000 + electrical. Contractor thought about 1 day to install both.

At least one of the major manufacturers state in their warranty that if purchased on-line and not through the HVAC contractor that will be installing, the warranty is voided. Units come charged with enough to supply 15' line - longer lines would require charging. I can by both units and parts and get electrical done for less than $5000 - but not without consequences.

Seems like homeowner should be able to do at least part of the installation without penalty and still have HVAC pro hook it up. Consequently, we both lose - contractor gets no business (from me) and I either don't install units, or take chance on no warranty. Odd economics, but guess that is how it works when one lives where there is minimal competition and no manufactures (so have to use web).

Appreciate all the advice on installing - I may use it yet. Thanks fishhab

 

[Rosco]

I am looking at the exact same units from Ramsond. We have these units over in Iraq, and you can cool a room quietly on a 130 degree day. I am either going to install them myself or find someone to help on the side. I cannot afford to pay going rates. Seems easy enough with the right tools and handyman knowledge.

 

[wnenn]

I am an HVAC commercial manufacturer's rep in St. Louis that handles many lines of A/C products, one of which is Daikin (the big bear of that whole industry-they have 65% market share of VRV in the rest of the world). There are many manufacturers of mini split products that have no infrastructure in the U.S. Buy only Daikin, Mitsubishi or Sanyo and you won't get hurt. Having it installed by a professional is also very important. You can install it but if there is an issue with it you will be on your own. The manufacturers have contracts with reps and distibutors that specifically say the equipment is to be installed by "trained" personnel. I have 7 refrig techs on the street that can install and we have sent contractors (dealers) to Dallas for training for two days just to qualify to bid and install jobs. The distributor of products in this area has no one to start or service the units they sell to contractor-dealers. They depend on their dealers to start and make certain that the units are installed correctly. The home install is a thing of the past. The refrig charge is critical on these mini machines and all units must be evaculated and charged. Not trying to bust a bubble, but if you pay a bunch af money for something, you won't be happy if it doesn't work. Sorry, Wnenn