Mini-split and "central heating system"

[billconner]

Helping my son buy a house in PA. Fixer upper - gut, all new electric and plumbing, etc. Want to do mini-splits with a pellet stove as "back up" but probably will be main heat source.

Insurance company is saying a house has to have a "central heating system" and pellet stove won't do that, and that to use mini splits they all have to be on same thermostat. My house has 4 zones on boiler on 4 thermostats so not making sense.

Just had info and mini splits are fine?

I think this is an insurance company thing, not code, but all new to me.

 

[Roert42]

Sounds like an insurance company thing.

My house has electric baseboard heat, so each room has it's own thermostat.

When the insurance company asked why kind of heat, just said "electric".

 

[Kaizen]

I think they are looking for "heat pump" as the system.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Segue - Mini splits with multiple zones/air handlers are less efficient.

More expensive, but 2 (or more) separate systems with no more than 2 air handlers each would be more efficient and likely cost less to run (shutting down the ones in rooms not used).

 

[jack stand]

Helping my son buy a house in PA. Fixer upper - gut, all new electric and plumbing, etc. Want to do mini-splits with a pellet stove as "back up" but probably will be main heat source.

Insurance company is saying a house has to have a "central heating system" and pellet stove won't do that, and that to use mini splits they all have to be on same thermostat. My house has 4 zones on boiler on 4 thermostats so not making sense.

Just had info and mini splits are fine?

I think this is an insurance company thing, not code, but all new to me.

Find a new insurance company!

 

[HoosierBuddy]

Agree with Kaizen, just try "Heat Pump" in that space and let it fly.

My guess is they are looking for people that are just heating with space heaters/pellet stoves/wood stoves/ventless heaters/etc. and don't have a "for real" solution....which in my view Mini Split heat pumps are.

Seen many times over the years where a house loses the furnace and someone decides they can heat the house with space heaters or what not....not as a temporary solution, but for years. I'm surprised your son can get a loan without a "for real" solution. FHA wouldn't go for it, I'm sure.

 

[billconner]

Cash. And it was more a discussion for the future. Right now there is a boiler and radiators but not working. Figuring 6 months to make it habitable, and at that time this particular insurance agent says it would need a central heating system.

 

[fitter30]

Boiler heat is fantasic. Pellets whats a bag cost with tax, btu's in the bag picking up a pallet or two, loading, cleaning and efficiency of the stove?
Look at "you tube" cleaning a mini split indoor unit.

 

[billconner]

Boiler heat is fantasic. Pellets whats a bag cost with tax, btu's in the bag picking up a pallet or two, loading, cleaning and efficiency of the stove?
Look at "you tube" cleaning a mini split indoor unit.

It's a steam system, and boiler and all piping has to be replaced. Plus family is in the stove business, plus the pellet stoves are nice like a fire place. Your advice might fit a majority but not in this case.

 

[Ohmthis]

I’m in the majority with using “Heat Pump” as the system for the insurance company. Is the plan to use multiple wall mounted units? I am a big proponent of mini splits. Unless the spaces are large and open, they are the wrong type. A ducted Mini split will work in a standard type (multiple walls with smaller rooms (150 sqft or less) home. Since it’s a gut job, you can do correct ductwork. Is NG available in your area?

 

[billconner]

I’m in the majority with using “Heat Pump” as the system for the insurance company. Is the plan to use multiple wall mounted units? I am a big proponent of mini splits. Unless the spaces are large and open, they are the wrong type. A ducted Mini split will work in a standard type (multiple walls with smaller rooms (150 sqft or less) home. Since it’s a gut job, you can do correct ductwork. Is NG available in your area?

You're saying you like the ducted mini-split rather than individual fan coil units in each room? 8 rooms in about 2000 SF.

Even with individual "heads" - and looking at ceiling cassettes - two heat pumps - upstairs and down stairs.

I liked the individual per room controls.......

Guessing a single fan coil unit and 4 ducts is less than 4 fan coil units.

 

[Ohmthis]

This is not a hard /fast rule for systems design (there are calculations needed done to be correctly done). Just a simple guide to get you in the ballpark. For cooling 20-25 btu per sqft. For heating 30-50 btu per sqft. Since this is in PA, I’ll use the low end for cooling and high end for heating. A 12x12 room is 144 sqft. That’s 2880 cooling btu and 7200 btu for heating. Depending on equipment manufacturer that’s a 7k-9k btu head. Four of those for one floor is 30k-36k btu for the system. Now two of those systems is a total of 5-6 tons (60k and 72k btu). Thats crazy over kill!
A semi tight house would need no more that 48k btu combined. You can use two 24k ducted systems with a 48k outside Heat Pump.
The system is still an inverter system and will run up or down based on need. Each indoor coil is on its own “Tstat” and can be set independently.
If you have NG available, all of this (my opinion here) is the wrong way to go. I know he wants to use a pellet stove, he can use it to supplement a gas furnace.

 

[billconner]

No NG, even though near ground zero of the Marcellus Shield. I'm sure they will rely on pellets for most heat, as do others in that area. If my son could, he wouldn't put in anything other than the pellet stove. (Well, an outdoor wood boiler was considered.)

Personally I'd never put in a furnace. Dirty, dusty, and noisy. And the kids can hear you making whoopy through the ducts. Just scorched air.

I love hot water heat myself (with Runtal radiators!) And have never lived in a house with central air thankfully.

 

[dcg9381]

Insurance company is saying a house has to have a "central heating system" and pellet stove won't do that, and that to use mini splits they all have to be on same thermostat. My house has 4 zones on boiler on 4 thermostats so not making sense.

Probably want them all on the same thermostat to prevent a freeze situation that results in a busted pipe and a big insurance claim. That's the only "logic" I can make of it. But insurance requirements are insurance requirements. Did you "ask" or did they tell you?

Just had info and mini splits are fine?

Splits are fine (make sure they are properly rated for cold weather). It's a bit of a dumb requirement. I don't see how it makes any sense when you get into larger houses with "central" heat and AC but different floors/zones on different thermostats.

I think this is an insurance company thing, not code, but all new to me.

I think so too, but how'd you come across the "requirement"?

I will say, pellet stoves are great when they work, but we have not had good luck with them. Hard to get serviced. I've seen people here that love them and people here that have had my experience... YMMV. One "alternative" that I rigged up was installing propane drops for various things like tankless water heater, propane clothes dryer, and a propane drop for my "induction" stove. In an extended power out situation, I just pull out the 20-30k ventless heaters and they work just fine... Wouldn't want to heat on ventless all year, but in a pinch they do great. No code issues as they're not "installed".

 

[billconner]

I will say, pellet stoves are great when they work, but we have not had good luck with them.

My son installs and services wood, pellet, and gas stoves, and holds certification for that from the state. So not an issue. Comes with getting them at very low cost, pellets too.

He will have propane for on demand water heater. We haven't discussed ranges but I'll probably advocate for induction.

 

[billconner]

I think so too, but how'd you come across the "requirement"?

I was applying - over phone - and they asked what heating was, and that started the conversation. Oil boiler that was dead existing. A pellet (and wood and coal) stove couldn't be only source of heat. I mentioned mini splits.

 

[dcg9381]

I was applying - over phone - and they asked what heating was, and that started the conversation. Oil boiler that was dead existing. A pellet (and wood and coal) stove couldn't be only source of heat. I mentioned mini splits.

Eh.. I trust the agent about as much as I trust...well, I dunno... 110% solid for not making a mistake up front, but I'd ask around a bit more before deciding an "entire" build around the demands of an insurance company. I just got back from Colorado - no central HVAC at all and wood stove for heat. Somehow it's insured. Not "preferred" entirely, I get it.. And I wouldn't want to build something uninsurable.

But my insurance company (USAA) has never asked me how many thermostats are in the house. Oddball...

My son installs and services wood, pellet, and gas stoves, and holds certification for that from the state. So not an issue. Comes with getting them at very low cost, pellets too.

If your son does it, I'm all in. Send him up to MI where he can make a small fortune in the winter.
I love the idea of pellet, it just hasn't worked out for us. Others it 100% has....