Mini Split Effectiveness - A/C and Heat Options

[theoldwizard1]

Interesting segue

I just saw this :

ABOUT MITSUBISHI ELECTRIC TRANE HVAC US

Formed in 2018, Mitsubishi Electric Trane HVAC US (METUS) is a leading provider of ductless and VRF systems in the United States and Latin America. A 50 percent – 50 percent joint venture between Ingersoll Rand plc and Mitsubishi Electric US, Inc., the company provides innovative products, systems and solutions capable of cooling and heating any application from a home to a large commercial building.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I would suggest that you go to the Mitsubishi and Fujitsu web sites and look up the dealers in your area.

Mitsubishi Dealer Locator

 

[cfw3]

I am in a similar situation as the op right now. I have a 528sf garage with 8' ceiling, single garage door and one man door which I am looking to heat this winter. I believe has R11 fiberglass insulation. Has a 200 amp panel but no water. I am looking at buying a senville 12000 btu unit on EBay and installing myself. This one is supposed to heat down to -22 degrees!

12000 BTU Ductless AC Mini Split Air Conditioner and Heat 22 SEER Energy Star
ENERGYSTAR Certified - Heating Up to -22F - DC Inverter

I cant post a link but if you search for above you will find it. Is 12000 btu big enough?I am located in NE PA and my weather sounds similar to his. Anyone have any experience with senville units? Thanks

 

[Kaoskido]

So the HVAC guy called me and has basically told me nothing. He couldn't find anything about the Mini Split Hyper Heat and continued to push the PTAC.

I had a quick message chat with Ingrams Water and Air and they suggested a Mr. Cool 18k BUT 20 Seer Hyper Heat system.

https://iwae.com/shop/18k-btu-20-se...t-pump-split-system-wall-mounted-ha18621.html

I went to the Mitsubishi dealer link and filled out a request but no one has ever contacted me.

 

[SALIV8]

I would assume the efficiency rating is the main reason. The only DIY units I've ever seen are at best 16 seer. I have no idea why this is the case, however.

 

[Kaoskido]

HVAC guy is of no real help as it does not seem he has the latest information about whats available for Mini Split Heat Pumps, ie. Hyper Heat H2i, etc, etc.

 

[Kaoskido]

So electrical is going in now.

HVAC guy now is pushing LG Red heat pump since I don't want the PTAC unit.

Any idea on this LG Red 18k compared to the Mitsubishi?

What would a swag at it, cost wise, installed?

 

[dsimatt]

So electrical is going in now.

HVAC guy now is pushing LG Red heat pump since I don't want the PTAC unit.

Any idea on this LG Red 18k compared to the Mitsubishi?

What would a swag at it, cost wise, installed?

LG ***** so don't install it, you'd be better paying the extra money to get a Mitsubishi dealer to make the drive to install it.

 

[SALIV8]

I agree- no LG. There has been many issues with LG and their support blows based on what I've read here.

 

[Kaoskido]

I've not read up on the LG - I am running out of options.

I have attempted several times to get a contact for the Mitsubishi dealer but I never get a response.

If LG is not an option, PTAC is not an option, Mitsubishi not an option - are there any other options other than no option ?

 

[MattT]

If LG is not an option, PTAC is not an option, Mitsubishi not an option - are there any other options other than no option ?

Though with nat gas on site running it to the shop is almost certainly the best long term option for heat in your climate. You'll just have to run the numbers to see how long it'll take you to break even.

If you insist on going the mini split route it sounds like you'll have to size and install it yourself. I wouldn't trust your local "hvac" guy to plug in a window shaker.

 

[Kaoskido]

I think the options I have are getting an LG Red or MrCool -

So while waiting to hear back again yet from the HVAC guy I I chatted with eComfort rep today and I asked for the Mitsubishi and they pushed LG Red.

The priced me at $2,378 shipped for a 18k LG Red with the line set install kit and wall mount. I explained my dilemma with my HVAC and asked if this was DIY and they said yes all up to the point of hooking up the line set. They said that any line set work with the refrigerant would void the warranty if not done by a licensed HVAC company.

 

[theoldwizard1]

So while waiting to hear back again yet from the HVAC guy I I chatted with eComfort rep today and I asked for the Mitsubishi and they pushed LG Red.

The real problem is a case of "buyer beware" ! You have to learn how to read the spec sheets or you are going to get stuck with a system that will not perform. Mitsubishi Hyper Heat systems advertise they will produce 100% of their heating capacity at 5F and 76% at -13F. These numbers are at a SEER of over 20.
Be careful even with Mitsubishi as the sell non-"Hyper Heat" systems also !

The priced me at $2,378 shipped for a 18k LG Red with the line set install kit and wall mount. I explained my dilemma with my HVAC and asked if this was DIY and they said yes all up to the point of hooking up the line set. They said that any line set work with the refrigerant would void the warranty if not done by a licensed HVAC company.

That statement is typical of almost every system ! Not sure what to tell you. Clearly you want a warranty and someone to call if the system does not work so you are kind of stuck with what your local installer will sell you.

LG claims 89% of Heat Capacity at 5F and 77% at -4F.

So why is this LG 18k unit at eComfort $1,679 (not including install kit and wall mount bracket) ?

 

[Kaoskido]

This is the unit that eComfort was trying to sell me this morning:
https://www.ecomfort.com/LG-LA180HYV1/p67940.html

with this kit:
https://www.ecomfort.com/Mini-Split-Accessories-MSPLTKIT-385815/p56537.html

and this wall mount
https://www.ecomfort.com/Rectorseal-WBB300/p31087.html

 

[dsimatt]

Yeah - just chatted with my wife about all of this.

I am going to admit to defeat.... HVAC person frankly ***** - Electrician changed the main house panel yesterday but didn't finish their work (garage sub-panel, outlets, 220 for the Cadet heater and 220 for the mini-split) and never came back today, no phone calls, etc.

This is the unit that eComfort was trying to sell me this morning:
https://www.ecomfort.com/LG-LA180HYV1/p67940.html

with this kit:
https://www.ecomfort.com/Mini-Split-Accessories-MSPLTKIT-385815/p56537.html

and this wall mount
https://www.ecomfort.com/Rectorseal-WBB300/p31087.html

At this point I think it best to step back and catch your breath, LG has had nothing good said about them on here and other sites, remember any issue and you have zero support.

Have you looked into Daikin and seen if there's any around you. With the issues you are having I hate to say but in your shoes I'd install a simple Mr Heater hanging furnace and then a thru wall AC unit to avoid dealing with those idiots.

 

[SALIV8]

I've been happy with my Gree systems.

Greecomfort.com


However, if you can't get a licensed hvac guy to make final connects and pressure test/evac the system and then release the refrigerant I'd go with a Mr. Cool. They are completely DIY and have been reliable imo.

 

[dcg9381]

I just saw (on this forum) a Mr. Cool 24k 20 SEER until under $2k.
Contractors are a pain in the ***. As long as you owe them money, they'll typically come back.

I used Daikin from https://www.heatandcool.com.
If you can get your electrician to install the disconnect, it's not that big a deal.
Install the lines, drains, get an independent HVAC tech to connect the lines, pressure test, and turn on... Around here, under $200.

 

[erik a]

Anyone have experience with Hotspot Energy splits?
Can run on 3 solar panels or will switch to the grid automatically when needed.
It looks like an interesting possibility for my situation...

https://hotspotenergy.com/solar-air-conditioner/HotSpot-ACDC12C.pdf

Erik A

 

[Kaoskido]

HVAC guys continues to flake off. No phone call in two-days yet he said he'd get right back to me. I guess based upon the forum here if he's only selling LG that's not a big loss I guess.

So as @dsimatt said I need to step back - way back. I had good intentions but absent reliable contractors that do what the say and say what they do a person is helpless unless you have the knowledge and skill to do it yourself.

 

[Kaoskido]

The Electrician I hired is a no show yet again today

 

[dsimatt]

First off I hope you didnt pay that electric hack, might be worth taking to court after pulling that BS if you did. You never mentioned what you'll be doing in your garage because to me the biggest issue with a mini is plugging up the blower and atleast on mine is not easy to clean out.

You never said how far away a Mitsubishi dealer is, you could always make the drive as I've had my best results happen by face to face discussions.

Or with all the issues you are having with local businesses is simplify your options. For heat even that idiot HVAC company should be able to install and hanging propane heater. Any issues and guys on here can walk you thru troubleshooting. Now for AC you could use a window or thru wall unit that yeah ***** but when they break you pull it out and install a new one.

Anyways I hope you can get a break and have something go your way on this project.

 

[Kaoskido]

@dsimatt -

I've gotten all of the circuits mapped with the exception of the ones that run my A/C unit, the electric heat (house is all electric baseboard), and the electric water heater - those all funnel through this city managed load management system. I took the service panel off thinking I could look at the wire connections to figure out the circuits but I cannot make any sense out of it.

 

[Kaoskido]

thanks for guidance and feedback.

 

[dsimatt]

@dsimatt -

I've gotten all of the circuits mapped with the exception of the ones that run my A/C unit, the electric heat (house is all electric baseboard), and the electric water heater - those all funnel through this city managed load management system. I took the service panel off thinking I could look at the wire connections to figure out the circuits but I cannot make any sense out of it.

I have not paid him but now discovered, after removing the service panel, I will most likely need to have him come back. The main lines that come in from outside were too short for the new panel so they used some sort of wire connectors to extend the main feed into the panel - looks like something I would not like to leave permanently.

That *****, definitely wouldn't give this guy a penny till the work is completed and passes inspection. Your house being all electric really kills your options, now a mini seems to be your best option and biggest headache.

My question is how much time are you out there and what are you doing, is it something one of those ventless propane heater with a 100lb tank might be easier at this point?

 

[Kaoskido]

@dsimatt

I recently bought a CNC router that I was hoping to use through the winter--- My outdoor shed can hold it but it's not insulated nor powered. A CNC router with dust, etc is not an option for inside so the garage is the only option.

It sits on a table that is 6' by 4' so it is a good sized hobbyist CNC.

The garage does not need to be heated/cooled 24/7 --- I would use the heat/cooling options when needed.

I could see myself being out there on most evenings after work for a few hours but then on the weekend it may be the entire day, etc.

I don't know much about the ventless stuff I suppose that could be an option.

 

[SALIV8]

Seems obvious but I've searched contractors on Yelp before with good results after reading the reviews.

Have you tried this?

 

[Kaoskido]

@saliv8 - Yelp would be good if I lived in a more populated city. I live in a town of 5,000 and there are about a handful of electricians in the area. Some of which show up on yelp or google reviews and others that don't.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Sad state of affairs of tradesmen in a small town !

 

[Kaoskido]

Out of the blue I got a call from a Mitsubishi dealer..... they are two hours away but said they would come to do an install...... waiting on their bid and I'm afraid of what the cost will be....

 

[dsimatt]

Out of the blue I got a call from a Mitsubishi dealer..... they are two hours away but said they would come to do an install...... waiting on their bid and I'm afraid of what the cost will be....

Awesome news .

The price won't be cheap, my 18k hyper heat was $4500ish and they are 5 miles away from me but once you get using it you'll be in love. I would also look into installing a wireless thermostat while they are doing it..I have the Honeywell rebadged one and really like it.

 

[Kaoskido]

Awesome news .

The price won't be cheap, my 18k hyper heat was $4500ish and they are 5 miles away from me but once you get using it you'll be in love. I would also look into installing a wireless thermostat while they are doing it..I have the Honeywell rebadged one and really like it.

I'm afraid it will be something like that ..... I am bound by my other half so that will never happen. The woman I spoke with said they do install other units like Bryant (never heard of) and Fujitsu.

She said she would price it all out like Good, Better, Best (being the Hyper Heat)

I also explained to her that my central air unit needs to be replaced too so who knows maybe there may be some sort of deal I can strike to do them both... hard to say.

Only bad thing about my central air unit is that the air handler is in the attic since my house is all electric heat.

 

[dsimatt]

I'm afraid it will be something like that ..... I am bound by my other half so that will never happen. The woman I spoke with said they do install other units like Bryant (never heard of) and Fujitsu.

She said she would price it all out like Good, Better, Best (being the Hyper Heat)

I also explained to her that my central air unit needs to be replaced too so who knows maybe there may be some sort of deal I can strike to do them both... hard to say.

Only bad thing about my central air unit is that the air handler is in the attic since my house is all electric heat.

You be given the AC only which is cheapest, AC and heat to 15* version and then the hyper heat which for us was only $400 more than the regular model. Also our indoor unit was the top model with a temp sensor that constantly scans the rooms and directs air floor as needed...you don't need that.

The problem is it will all be expensive, I know Fujitsu is a pretty good brand on here and I want to say I heard Bryant is rebadged Mitsubishi but not 100% on that. I'd definitely work a all in deal for also doing your house AC to.

 

[Kaoskido]

Wow - here are the quotes -

Now I have to see about the main A/C --- in speaking sounds like I can only get about a $500 cash discount as I would be paying cash for both....

I shouldn't complain - so far the woman working for this joint has been top notch.

 

[argulator]

That doesn't look so bad to me. Just received one quote for $7500 for Mitsubishi 2 Ton with hyper heat for new construction garage. Think I'lll pass.

 

[SALIV8]

That Mitsubishi quote is pretty darn good imo!

 

[dsimatt]

Wow - here are the quotes -

Now I have to see about the main A/C --- in speaking sounds like I can only get about a $500 cash discount as I would be paying cash for both....

I shouldn't complain - so far the woman working for this joint has been top notch.

Now I don't think that includes install and misc parts they will need but looks right inline with what I paid, you could go on ecomfort and price compare but it's a wash either way.

With these mini splits you get what you pay for, I can attest that the hyper heat flat out works in the cold like mine did last year at -16. You can go cheaper but come winter time you won't have guaranteed heat all winter so have to consider that to.

 

[Kaoskido]

Now I don't think that includes install and misc parts they will need but looks right inline with what I paid, you could go on ecomfort and price compare but it's a wash either way.

With these mini splits you get what you pay for, I can attest that the hyper heat flat out works in the cold like mine did last year at -16. You can go cheaper but come winter time you won't have guaranteed heat all winter so have to consider that to.

So this project has snowballed which I guess it fine... They sent someone down to my house last night to check out the central air unit. As my house is all electric heat and without a total tear out of my finished basement a forced air system is not an option.

That said the guy they sent down said he would suggest I put in a heat pump for the unit outside/attic and said that in like 8 years it would pay for itself by saving electricity costs running the baseboard heaters.

I don't know much about heat pumps and let alone having heat coming down from ceiling vents. Most my life I lived in houses with either a furnace or electrical baseboard heat.

In the chart given the woman said that the up-front cost is what I pay and it covers everything except for any electrical work or permits, etc.

It seems the consensus on here is to go with Mitsubishi but I am not sure if the model she quoted is hyper heat or not... says that it has 100% heating down to -13f but the guy last night said most likely it wouldn't. I am still having the Cadet 5000w heater installed if my electrical guy comes back. I bitched and moaned to him and now they are due back on Monday to hopefully finish the job and do the wiring for this Mini-split and Cadet heater in the garage.

I am just not sure about the Heat Pump for the house. Sounded like that is going to cost a bunch more.

Seeing I have not had central air since 2015 and have been using a window A/C unit we are ready to spend the money to squash this ongoing ***** feast on my part about trying to get someone to come do the job in the little town we live.

This company seems like they are a good company - the online reviews are good.

If I can get this all done in the $10-12k then I am going to have them do it.

 

[Kaoskido]

Simple google of Heat Pump vs. Electric Baseboard Heaters

Heat pumps cut electricity use by 30 to 40 percent compared to electric baseboard heaters, reports the DOE. ...

If there is truth to this then the heat pump seems to be the way to go if.... the cost is not prohibitive.

I am hoping they give me a discount of some between having both units done and I am paying cash.

 

[minute_basset]

The unit that goes to -15 is the HyperHeat model. Mitsubishi also makes a floor mounted hyper heat head. It's pretty slick. We just installed one in a high performance Habitat for Humanity house in Vermont. It's also a tad more efficient as the temp sampling occurs closer to the floor where the cooler air is and it directs heat both to the floor as well as through the top of the unit.

 

[Kaoskido]

I pulled the trigger on the Mitsubishi Hyper Heat model and then also a Bryant Bryant Evolution Series: 288BNV Heat Pump for the house.... So all in all I will be about $16k into this with the electrical work. The icing on the cake is having the Hyper Heat in the garage the other items needed to be done. Glad I have no debt and can pay cash for all of this.