Mini split ? for Pros & the Experienced

[ratflinger]

I'm going to move to mini splits, the question is: Do I do it now and use R410 units or wait until next year for the R454B units. Maybe some of you guys have seen performance numbers, etc. I know the new stuff is 'slightly' flammable, so there's that. I'm also willing to bet the new units are more expensive.

What say you?

 

[pcmeiners]

There is some performance gain but not tremendous from the newest units with R454b. Flammability? you live surrounded by flammable materials, you use flammable materials all the time, what is the big deal.

Now, the manufacturers will have a large stock of gas and 410 units they have to get rid of. Bank on that, so you will need to wait for R454b to ship and units prices to drop.
Also, this is new tech, even if it has been used in other countries. Like all new tech, machine design changes cause grief, even if those changes are minor to conform to US standards.

 

[American Locomotive]

I think the minisplits are probably going to be using R32. Most of them already use R32 and R290 in Asian markets. R454B seems to be what the conventional American split systems will be migrating to from what I've seen.

The bigger problem is there is going to be a gradual phaseout of R410a production, with it ending in 2036, so the gas will progressively get more expensive. I would probably wait for an R32/R454B unit.

R410A is a 50/50 blend of R32 and R125
R454B is a 69/31 blend of R32 and R1234yf

 

[chinboys]

I just worked on a 32-year-old R-22 system and was able to get the refrigerant to bring it up to operating specs.
I could have sold a new 410 or 454B higher SEER system but didn't as the customer was fine with his low SEER system.

You shouldn't care about the type of refrigerant being used. R 410A refrigerant will still be in supply. I am also certain, that all 454B system, components will be downward compatible with 410A system components. There will always be replacement refrigerants to replace the existing ozone-depleting and or greenhouse gas refrigerants. All new refrigerants will not be ozone-depleting types and also will even have lower greenhouse gas numbers such as R-454B.
The new refrigerants (anything that begins with 4XX) also will operate at higher pressures hence more potential problems with leaks from what I have experienced.

You need to look at the reliability and the ease of getting parts for a system where you are. It seems each city or county has its favorite brands.
You need to look at the SEER of the system. Spend the extra $$ on a higher SEER system as it uses kilowatts of power more efficiently than a lower SEER'ed system.
Also, look into your local power utility as they may have rebates (you have to use their vendors and they might have zero % financing available).
And lastly, the US Federal Government has income tax credits to claim depending on what SEER-rated model you buy.

 

[pcmeiners]

Agree the OP should be most concerned about SEER rating due to his location.

For most of north America high SEER is not the important number. The heating efficiency HSPF is far more important, far more important as heating costs are generally higher then air conditioning costs for most homes.

 

[ratflinger]

I'm not overly concerned about the flammability as I realize that my small fridges are using maybe propane. The Pioneer Diamante line is 22 SEER. pcmeiners is correct, heating isn't very important down here as we probably don't heat more than about 30 days total during the 'winter'.

I can afford to buy now and I can afford to buy later. Running out of R410 is doubtfully going to be be an issue since getting much more than 10 years out of these units is probably iffy anyway.

 

[pcmeiners]

Lived a considerable number of years...... from experience , waiting for a specific item to become available is generally a losing proposition, loaded with disappointment.
Aside from this, 410a units and parts are already showing up on Ebay. That will not happen for years with 454b units, unless the items are over priced. When I purchased my home's (5) minisplits I made sure they were 410a, and not 454b...l am not interested in paying extra for not needed technology.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I think the minisplits are probably going to be using R32. Most of them already use R32 and R290 in Asian markets. R454B seems to be what the conventional American split systems will be migrating to from what I've seen.

According to Wikipedia, R290 (propane) is in "side use" outside of the US. ZERO GWP. Widely available. Efficienct.

Typical "Safety Sally's : It's flammable !". Skate most things in your house !!

 

[fitter30]

R 290 has been used in commercial display cases for 13 years True manufacturing.

 

[ps2cho]

Will r410a units already manufactured be available to sell in 2025 or will all inventory have to be liquidated by year end and excess then sold to foreign countries?

Figuring out when the “sales” might happen?

 

[ratflinger]

They can be sold through the end of 2025, if they have them. Spoke with one distributor who said they were trying to only stock what they could sell this year. They wanted to start delivering the new units ASAP in 2025.

 

[pcmeiners]

Manufactures are allowed to sell any 410a equipment and gas they have in inventory . Any HVAC equipment manufactured in 2025 or later must have R454b or equal. I do not see a reason for "sales", as demand for 410a system will remain high, and supply of 454b units will be low.

"R410a will be around for a long time to come. It has been used in the United States since 1995 and is in a majority of the homes currently. As units need repair, the technicians will still be allowed to fix, repair, and even swap out your condensing unit with R410a units.
After December 31st, 2025, all new systems will be required to be on one of the new refrigerants. If you are only replacing the outdoor unit, you can still replace with an R410a unit if it is available. However if both indoor and outdoor units are being replaced, a new refrigerant system will need to be installed."

 

[ps2cho]

Manufactures are allowed to sell any 410a equipment and gas they have in inventory . Any HVAC equipment manufactured in 2025 or later must have R454b or equal. I do not see a reason for "sales", as demand for 410a system will remain high, and supply of 454b units will be low.

"R410a will be around for a long time to come. It has been used in the United States since 1995 and is in a majority of the homes currently. As units need repair, the technicians will still be allowed to fix, repair, and even swap out your condensing unit with R410a units.
After December 31st, 2025, all new systems will be required to be on one of the new refrigerants. If you are only replacing the outdoor unit, you can still replace with an R410a unit if it is available. However if both indoor and outdoor units are being replaced, a new refrigerant system will need to be installed."

Got it - so the manufacturing of the units are banned, however existing inventory can be installed with no issues...I was "hoping" they would want to upsell all the new units for better GPM and get rid of all old r410a units, in particular mini splits since they sell less. Regular split heat pumps probably unlikely to see any sales due to demand.