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Mini Split Install Question

wegner426

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Good evening members. My install directions for my Gree Saphire 24K unit are calling for 12 inches between the air inlet on the condenser and the exterior wall of the house.

Most of the wall or foundation mount brackets I see are going to leave me with 6-7 inches clearance.

In your experience, is not having 12 inches clearance going to be a problem on a 24K unit mounted 12 inches off the ground? If so I will keep looking for a different bracket or build one if need be.

Thanks,
Chad
 
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jjrbus

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One of the things I noticed when doing my due dilligence for a DIY mini install was some glaring mistakes in the literature.

Anytime I did not get a response on the forums I would compare install manuals from other manufacturers.

The Daikin 15 SEER heat pump 24k calls for 3 15/16 from the rear and more than 13 3/4 inch clearance in the front. Always keep in mind these are minimums.

Good luck with this one.
 
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wegner426

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Thanks for your response, I may give it a try. Gets fairly cold here in Omaha so I am curious to see how this is going to work out, the Saphire is supposed to heat down to -22, although at reduced outputs of course.
 

dcg9381

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Installing a 24k system soon, I'm interested also. These seem to be mounted "parallel" to the wall on most mounting systems. I'd assume front/rear spacing isn't an issue, unless near another unit.

Isn't side-to-wall spacing necessary for adequate air flow?
 

justinjoyal

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You will be fine with 6-7 inches.

What are you installing the unit in ? Must be one hell of a large space because a 24k Sapphire is very powerful.
 
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wegner426

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Thanks Justin, my garage is 1350 SF with 10ft ceilings I am actually worried about it being borderline too small. Going to do R50 blow in in the ceiling and I have an 8x10 and 16x10 north facing garage doors.
 

justinjoyal

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Wall insulation R-Value ?

Is heating or cooling the primary use ?
 
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wegner426

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Well the builder was kind enough (sarcasm) to finish the garage without insulation behind the drywall on the exterior walls that don't serve as the living space, so I am going to have to have fiberglass blown in to the wall cavities. I assume R-13 is the best I can hope for in that situation. Heating is the primary use.
 
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Imusprofit

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My building is the same footprint as yours, with 12' ceilings and R-13 batt insulation in walls and R-50 blown in ceiling. Two 10x10 insulated doors. I live in New Jersey and mini-split will be used primarily for heating. FWIW, I'm about to install a mini-split system and have spoken to several Mini-split manufactures regarding proper sizing. Depending on SEER and other factors, I,m generally being told to use TWO 24K mini-splits, one mounted on each side of the building. I have yet to purchase a system.
 
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wegner426

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Wow Imusprofit, that seems like a ton of capacity. I did my calcs at the ecomfort website, they have a sizing calculator there where you put in your wall insulation, whether they are north or south walls etc to come up with my sizing.

My cousin uses a Gree Neo in 36K to heat and cool in Tulsa (I know not as cold as NJ) for a 30x60 with 14 foot ceilings and it works like a champ with 3 circulating fans. He is spray foamed on the walls though so little air movement.

I am more concerned with heating than cooling. I may run it at 80 in the summer just to pull the humidity out but the heat doesn't bother me too much.
 

jjrbus

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My building is the same footprint as yours, with 12' ceilings and R-13 batt insulation in walls and R-50 blown in ceiling. Two 10x10 insulated doors. I live in New Jersey and mini-split will be used primarily for heating. FWIW, I'm about to install a mini-split system and have spoken to several Mini-split manufactures regarding proper sizing. Depending on SEER and other factors, I,m generally being told to use TWO 24K mini-splits, one mounted on each side of the building. I have yet to purchase a system.

Spoken to several mini split manufacturers?? Could you elaborate on that a bit, the average person cannot get help from tech support, you are the first person I have heard that said they are getting help from the manufactures.

If you are talking about dealers they are notorious for over sizing units, if a manual J or whole house calculator has not been done they are guessing or going by the seat of their pants.

There is a lots of opps room with inverter minis as they modulate, an 18k mini can put out from 7,000 to 23,000 btu. However they are far more efficient at higher outputs. Which seems counter intuitive, but that is the way they work.
 

justinjoyal

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Wow Imusprofit, that seems like a ton of capacity. I did my calcs at the ecomfort website, they have a sizing calculator there where you put in your wall insulation, whether they are north or south walls etc to come up with my sizing.



My cousin uses a Gree Neo in 36K to heat and cool in Tulsa (I know not as cold as NJ) for a 30x60 with 14 foot ceilings and it works like a champ with 3 circulating fans. He is spray foamed on the walls though so little air movement.



I am more concerned with heating than cooling. I may run it at 80 in the summer just to pull the humidity out but the heat doesn't bother me too much.

Try www.loadcalc.net

If heat is your primary usage then oversizing doesnt really matter..

However, to remove humidity when cooling, you need long run times, which means proper sizing.



My building is the same footprint as yours, with 12' ceilings and R-13 batt insulation in walls and R-50 blown in ceiling. Two 10x10 insulated doors. I live in New Jersey and mini-split will be used primarily for heating. FWIW, I'm about to install a mini-split system and have spoken to several Mini-split manufactures regarding proper sizing. Depending on SEER and other factors, I,m generally being told to use TWO 24K mini-splits, one mounted on each side of the building. I have yet to purchase a system.



Spoken to several mini split manufacturers?? Could you elaborate on that a bit, the average person cannot get help from tech support, you are the first person I have heard that said they are getting help from the manufactures.



If you are talking about dealers they are notorious for over sizing units, if a manual J or whole house calculator has not been done they are guessing or going by the seat of their pants.



There is a lots of opps room with inverter minis as they modulate, an 18k mini can put out from 7,000 to 23,000 btu. However they are far more efficient at higher outputs. Which seems counter intuitive, but that is the way they work.


This ^^

4 tons seem like A LOT. But i dont know what the design specs are.
 

Imusprofit

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Spoken to several mini split manufacturers?? Could you elaborate on that a bit, the average person cannot get help from tech support, you are the first person I have heard that said they are getting help from the manufactures.

If you are talking about dealers they are notorious for over sizing units, if a manual J or whole house calculator has not been done they are guessing or going by the seat of their pants.

There is a lots of opps room with inverter minis as they modulate, an 18k mini can put out from 7,000 to 23,000 btu. However they are far more efficient at higher outputs. Which seems counter intuitive, but that is the way they work.

Two dealers recommended the same set up. Mr. Cool and Alpine. The Alpine tech asked me many questions and did the load calculation. He said 1 36K unit will work but will run nearly constantly for my set up even will 3 ceiling fans. He argued that two 24K units would distribute the heat more evenly and because 24K units are more efficient than 36K units, the electricity usage would be about the same.

Honestly, I would prefer 1 system but I don't want to buy a big 36K unit only to learn that it didn't get the job done.
 

justinjoyal

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If you need 36k you need 36k, not 2x24=48k. What’s the logic? Why bother doin a load calc only not to follow it. And that’s assuming the load calc was a real one, not a « rule of thumb » thing.

If you want two heads and need 36k, get two 18k.
 
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jjrbus

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This is typical of what I ran into. If the Manual J call for 36k you need 36k not 48K.

It is hard to decipher all of this, here you have a professional guy in a fancy truck telling you trust me I am an expert and have doing it for decades. As justinjoyal pointed out why do a load calc and then do what you want anyway, makes no sense?

Are you sure a load calculation was done and not some square foot calculator, rule of thumb thing?

I like more than one unit, if there is an issue there is redundancy. I could have put 2 heads on one unit on one end of my house but went with 2 separate systems.

Not an AC tech, just another bozo on the bus trying to get by.
 

justinjoyal

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This is typical of what I ran into. If the Manual J call for 36k you need 36k not 48K.

It is hard to decipher all of this, here you have a professional guy in a fancy truck telling you trust me I am an expert and have doing it for decades. As justinjoyal pointed out why do a load calc and then do what you want anyway, makes no sense?


It happens every once in a while, a customer wont follow my advice and will request a larger unit be put in. Gotta make him sign a disclaimer after explaining the downsides... aint gonna take responsability for improper sizing!
 

jjrbus

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It happens every once in a while, a customer wont follow my advice and will request a larger unit be put in. Gotta make him sign a disclaimer after explaining the downsides... aint gonna take responsability for improper sizing!


I dislike commenting on a subject I am not well acquainted with. But I found I know more than most of the people that came to give me estimates. Really sad.
 
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wegner426

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Well I test fit the unit, I have officially 4.75 inches of clearance between the house siding and the condenser and 12.5 inches off the ground. This makes me a little nervous, trying to decide whether to take down the mount and find another that spaces out further.

Thoughts?
 
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wegner426

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I checked Mitsubishi install for a 24K unit, they require 4 inches rear clearance it look like. Trying to convince myself this okay, LOL.
 

SALIV8

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Wegner- Gree will not warranty that distance. That is not acceptable.

I ran into an issue myself and have an email from Gree tech support stating, specifically, Gree requires 8" from the wall and 20" plus from the ground for proper airflow regarding wall brackets. You will need to purchase a different wall bracket.

I used this one : Mitsubishi heavy duty qswb2000m-1 which meets their required specs.
 

dcg9381

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This is typical of what I ran into. If the Manual J call for 36k you need 36k not 48K.

I'd not argue this either with a traditional HVAC system.
My "understanding" (limited) is that these ductless inverter-type systems are efficient at partial loads and installing more BTUs is "more OK" than a traditional HVAC system that is too big and will short-cycle and not remove humidity?

(This is a question, not an assertion)
 
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wegner426

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Ok Thanks, the install manual doesn't mention anything about a distance from the ground, just 12 inches clearance on the backside. I am actually mounting to the stem wall, so I am using a L bracket so to speak like would be use for a conventional AC condenser to mount to a stem wall. I think I located something by diversitech that will work, ACB-30 is the part number.
 

jjrbus

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I'd not argue this either with a traditional HVAC system.
My "understanding" (limited) is that these ductless inverter-type systems are efficient at partial loads and installing more BTUs is "more OK" than a traditional HVAC system that is too big and will short-cycle and not remove humidity?

(This is a question, not an assertion)

I was typing out a long winded, half accurate amateur response when I remember an article I read. This may help.

https://www.contractormag.com/hydronics-systems/sizing-mini-split-systems-don-t-oversize-choose-right-equipment

I used a 9k Daikin in a room where a 6k Mitsubishi would have been better sized, but the Mitsu was way more than double the cost, so the efficiency would never had paid for the extra initial cost.
 

dcg9381

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Thank you for the reference - my take away is you can over-size an inverter based mini-split, but you shouldn't (largely based on the idea that more BTUs cost more for the equipment). In my case (and perhaps yours) - the larger units were a more cost-efficient answer.

I spent $2600 on 2 x 24k Daikin units with heat. Without heat, they would have run me about $2000.
 

MattT

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I was typing out a long winded, half accurate amateur response when I remember an article I read. This may help.

https://www.contractormag.com/hydronics-systems/sizing-mini-split-systems-don-t-oversize-choose-right-equipment

I used a 9k Daikin in a room where a 6k Mitsubishi would have been better sized, but the Mitsu was way more than double the cost, so the efficiency would never had paid for the extra initial cost.

That article is oversimplifying things. What they call "Heat gain" varies with outdoor temperature and several other variables. I'm guessing this "heat gain" number is design load which is a little under maximum load and is the number used for sizing A/Cs. Probably calculated for a sunny afternoon with a temperature in the 90s.

So using the example from the article on a cloudy day with a temp in the low 80s the load will probably be down around 2,000 BTU. Right on the bottom limit of their 9K units range and the 12K will definitely be cycling. Air conditioners only remove moisture from the air when they're running so the closer to correctly sized they are the better they'll control humidity.
 

u3b3rg33k

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I'd not argue this either with a traditional HVAC system.
My "understanding" (limited) is that these ductless inverter-type systems are efficient at partial loads and installing more BTUs is "more OK" than a traditional HVAC system that is too big and will short-cycle and not remove humidity?

(This is a question, not an assertion)

it's important to look at the min/max capacity of the minisplit. a house split system typically has one capacity, which is whatever it's nameplate says + the derating based on outdoor temp. a minisplit with a 12k head may have an actual capacity range from 3k-16k. at work the contractors like to oversize, so I ask for spec sheets. I'm very happy with the cooling & humidity management of a 1 ton system at low average loads.

say it's cold out and you have a 48k VS unit in your garage and it's set at 50F. you walk in and turn it up to 72F. it'll kick up from whatever capacity it took to hold 50F to warm you up to 72F - probably 100% nameplate capacity or maybe more, based on whatever proprietary algorithms the mfg chose and actual capacity of the unit (often more than nameplate). once it gets close to 72F, say 70F, 71F, it'll start dialing back the capacity to a maintenance level.

this is not how a "normal" oversized system behaves. if you have an 80k BTU single stage mr heater in your garage, it'll burn at 80k until it shuts off, then short cycle on/off while the objects (cars, tools, walls, etc) slowly **** up heat from the air.


It's always worth looking at that minimum capacity. Often, multi head units will have a higher minimum total capacity than a single headed unit. I assume this is related to oil return, but don't quote me on the reasoning.

also note that minisplits often have a "dehumidify" mode, that AFAIK targets a coil temp and slows the fan down to maximize latent heat capacity without freezing up the evaporator.
 
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