Mini-split with ceiling cassette

[Steve W.]

OK, it's time to pull the trigger, ... but my target has disappeared.

I have been looking at a Pioneer 18k ceiling cassette to put in my family room renovation. Lately, it has been marked as "Sold Out". I am about to call Pioneer to see if/when they might be coming back.

In the mean time, what other options are there? I know everyone seems to have a favorite brand, but I am more interested in what to AVOID (and possibly why).

One of the features that attracted me to the Pioneer was the option of an auxillary duct that could be used to feed a closet. Have not seen that on the few that I had a chance to look at today.

As far as capacity is concerned, my calculations say that the 18k would be good. A 12k unit might work, but would have to work a bit longer on each cycle, but it's also "Sold Out". A 24k might be able to throttle back, but it might be short-cycling in the summer, and it's a much larger (physically) unit and would require some re-engineering of the trusses, so that option is simply OUT.

I have no personal experience with any brand, so I'm pretty much going by what I read here, and will appreciate any insights.

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[spider67]

What sq footage are you working with in the bedroom? And when you say auxiliary duct do you just mean having the line sets feeding through the closet to the outside condenser?

As far as reliable brands go, mostly everyone would say that Mitsubishi or Daikin. These guys are a bit better in terms of quality and own most of their own manufacturing, they are a bit pricier however. Some samples

If you are going for anything that is less pricy I would recommend something Cooper & Hunter, most distributors of theirs do free shipping some samples

Otherwise I would say you may want to narrow down your BTU to a more exact figure. Too much may not work when you need it to because it's off for so long, and too little and it may be working too hard (although you seem like a smart man and I don't want to tell you anything you already know) I would use a BTU Calculator

 

[chinboys]

Now going on for 7 years with 4 LG ceiling cassettes (12, 12, 12 and 9K).
They are deep or tall in height so you will need room to install them as well as to have width space between your ceiling trusses or joists.
They seem more quiet than their cousins... Wall units.

 

[Steve W.]

What sq footage are you working with in the bedroom? And when you say auxiliary duct do you just mean having the line sets feeding through the closet to the outside condenser?

As far as reliable brands go, mostly everyone would say that Mitsubishi or Daikin. These guys are a bit better in terms of quality and own most of their own manufacturing, they are a bit pricier however. Some samples

If you are going for anything that is less pricy I would recommend something Cooper & Hunter, most distributors of theirs do free shipping some samples

Otherwise I would say you may want to narrow down your BTU to a more exact figure. Too much may not work when you need it to because it's off for so long, and too little and it may be working too hard (although you seem like a smart man and I don't want to tell you anything you already know) I would use a BTU Calculator

New member, first post? I'm honored, but have some questions, based on your answers.

1. Square footage in the bedroom? Does not matter. As stated in my original post, it's in the family room. Not stated was the fact that it's about 400 square feet.
1a. The "auxiliary duct", as mentioned, would feed air to a closet, not run the lineset through it.
From their literature:



2. I appreciate the link to the Mitsubishi unit. Looked like an absolutely fantastic price, at least until I realized that was for the cassette ONLY, not including the outside unit, lineset, thermostat, etc., etc. All of that runs it up to just about double what the Pioneer unit is. The question is, is it twice as good to go along with twice the price?

3. Another link, appreciated. The price is a lot more agreeable, the brand is one I have not heard of until this recent session of searching.

4. Tried narrowing down the BTU requirements, but could not find anyone offering a 17,950 BTU model.
As mentioned in the original post, Pioneer offers 12k and 24k, along with some others, but they are too far outside the range needed. I see some manufacturers have a 15k, which would probably work, but the BTU calculator that I used says 18k would probably be best.

The room used to be the back half of the garage that the previous owners of the house had converted to a family room back in 1964. (They added 12' to the front of the garage to maintain 2-car parking.) They also knocked out the wall between the laundry room and the (former) garage to add some length. They had installed the smallest free-standing down-flow furnace they could find to heat that room, but it was a 60k unit. They had to raise the garage floor about 5" to match the house floor (all slab-on-grade), so they installed duct work around the perimeter of the room to handle air flow from the furnace. Did not take long to raise the temperature in the room, but with no insulation in the walls, and very little in the attic, it did not take long to lose that heat. When the outside temps are below about 45°, we run a 10k kerosene heater, which keeps the room warm. Previous owner wanted to cool the room, so they cut a hole in the new wall and installed a large window A/C. I think it was about an 18k unit, ran on 240v, but did not last long after we bought the house. We replaced it with a smaller 12k unit that ran on 120v.

For our renovation, we have taken down another wall, adding the dining room to the end of the family room. We have also removed the old furnace and duct work and removed the wood floor that raised the old garage to the house level. Found that it was not level, so we took it out and poured 4 yards of concrete last week to make a LEVEL floor. The renovation continues with re-wiring the room (it's also the home theater) and installing insulation. (House was built in 1957, with not a bit of insulation in any of the walls, and only a few inches in the attic. That is all being changed, this is the last room.) In spite of the added floor space, I feel that insulating the room will keep our heating and cooling requirements to within the limits that an 18k unit can provide.

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[dscheidt]

New member, first post? I'm honored, but have some questions, based on your answers.

1. Square footage in the bedroom? Does not matter. As stated in my original post, it's in the family room. Not stated was the fact that it's about 400 square feet.
1a. The "auxiliary duct", as mentioned, would feed air to a closet, not run the lineset through it.
From their literature:



2. I appreciate the link to the Mitsubishi unit. Looked like an absolutely fantastic price, at least until I realized that was for the cassette ONLY, not including the outside unit, lineset, thermostat, etc., etc. All of that runs it up to just about double what the Pioneer unit is. The question is, is it twice as good to go along with twice the price?

3. Another link, appreciated. The price is a lot more agreeable, the brand is one I have not heard of until this recent session of searching.

4. Tried narrowing down the BTU requirements, but could not find anyone offering a 17,950 BTU model.
As mentioned in the original post, Pioneer offers 12k and 24k, along with some others, but they are too far outside the range needed. I see some manufacturers have a 15k, which would probably work, but the BTU calculator that I used says 18k would probably be best.



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Most mini splits, especially ones that drive a single head, have fantastic turndown ratios, and installing one that's slightly oversized will not result in short cycling when the cooling load is low. looking at the pioneer spec sheets, the minimum output for the inverter++ (the higher efficency, works at lower temp version) is 5800 BTU for the 18K unit and 6100 for the 24K. (the heat numbers are worse 5000/11700, which might be a problem, depending on load.) I would expect the mitsuibshi or fujistsu to have better turndown ratios, but the difference is smaller than it used to be.

 

[American Locomotive]

It's paramount you insulate the space.

For 400 sq ft, assuming there's some insulation, 18,000 BTU "nameplate" sounds a bit oversized. My friend cools his entire 1000 sq foot home with 18,000 BTU worth of minisplit, and that's a mobile home with poor insulation

 

[justinjoyal]

Only 400 sq ft ? Is it not/poorly insulated or does it have a whole lot of sun facing windows or something ?

I'm aware that not all buildings and climates are made equal, but 18k seems like a whole lot of a/c for that space considering you are in SW Ohio where the design cooling temp is ~90*F.

 

[Steve W.]

It's currently barely insulated, but that is in the process of changing. As mentioned in post #4, there was no insulation in the walls and not much more in the ceiling. House was built in 1957, so things were done a bit differently then. From the outside, heading inward: standard red brick, air gap, some lightweight black fiber board, 2x4 studs, drywall, paint. At the corners, 1x4s were placed diagonally and recessed into the studs to provide some semblance of shear rigidity. House is still standing and there are no cracks, so it must be working.

In the attic, there are trusses that span the entire building (front-to-rear) and provide a 3' overhang outside. These trusses have 2x4 upper and lower chords and 2x3s in the web. Over most of the house, there is so little insulation, you can see the tops of the lower chord, meaning about 3" or less of insulation.

The renovation includes stripping the interior drywall, wiring (old stuff was a nightmare of DIY (or was that contractor, can't tell)) and old floor. Poured 4 yards of concrete last week to bring the floor up to house level, working now on the entertainment wall, then will re-wire and insulate. Since the studs are 2x4, can only install R-13, but that's 13 more than previously. Also sealing up the gaps where that black panel does not even make it to the top sill. Later this summer, we'll vacuum out all the old insulation, install baffles and boards to keep insulation out of the soffits, then blow in about 18" of fresh stuff.

Yeah, it will be a lot better than before. Not sure if 18k is going to be overkill, but I don't think 12k will be enough. The dimensions and shape of the room don't help much, either. It's about 12' wide, but end-to-end, it's about 46' long, as we have taken down a wall between the family room and dining room. The main house HVAC has a couple of vents in the dining room/kitchen area, so I'm not counting the entire area that the new unit needs to support.

Have not placed the order yet, but I did call Pioneer. They are expecting to change the status of these units from "Sold Out" to "In Stock" during the first week of April.

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[justinjoyal]

With the new insulation and everything sealed up, I would not be worried with a 12k unless you have many windows.

 

[pcmeiners]

"As far as capacity is concerned, my calculations say that the 18k would be good. A 12k unit might work,"

What you planning to cool down? If you want to liquefy helium, an 18k just might do it. Oversized is an understatement. A 6k minisplit would cool the room, 18k would be good if the room has 4 windows and you leave them open all year long
For a few months I cooled my 2300 sqft house and garage with a high efficiency 12k mini split

 

[Steve W.]

Finally about time to wrap this one up. The 12k unit finally became available in June. Installed it and had it commisioned by the end of the month by a licensed installer (for the warranty). During July and August we had several days with the high temps well into the 90s. I will have to admit that the 12k unit was almost overkill. We are still playing a bit with settings on the wall thermostat (not using the remote), and have found that a setting of about 76 or 77 actually cools the room to a very comfortable level. Now curious to see how well it works in January and February when outside temps get into the teens, they will give it the final thumbs-up.

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[Steve W.]

How about an update to the wrap-up? Unit was installed a year and a half ago. We have had two cooling seasons and one full heating season. Now getting into the second heating season, it has performed wonderfully. Absolutely no problems cooling the place. The last couple nights have been right near zero, and heating the room is still no problem.

Advertising literature says "maintains output to -13° F", but does not mention what percentage of 'output' that might be. Will have to do some research to look for some charts.

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