Minimum Compressor: Needle Scaler needs

[tyrenta]

Hi all -- I know there are thousands of compressor threads, and I've spent hours and hours researching, which actually is making it harder for me to figure this out:

I want to run a needle scaler to try and salvage a 4runner frame, body still on. Outside of that I don't do too much w air tools -- I have a dewalt 20v impact, and some basic air tools that are all 4-5 CFM tools. I'm running a 2.6g 3.3cfm makita made for nail guns portable now which doesn't really cut it for them, but will run a cut-off wheel painfully.

However, the IR 125 needle scaler is rated for 15cfm full duty. In an ideal world, I'd buy a 5hp 80g shop compressor and call it good for that and 90% of what I would need it for as a DIY weekend guy for the next 10-15 years, but I don't have a 220v run to my work area right now and don't see that happening soon.

So, there are a few tool brand/big box 120v 25-30g units (like this dewalt: https://www.homedepot.com/p/DEWALT-...cal-Electric-Air-Compressor-DXCM251/311596858) that I could pick up and actually put into use in short order, that deliver 5-7cfm on their spec sheet.

My question: How painful would it be trying to run that needle scaler with a 6cfm set-up, when it calls for 15cfm full duty? Would it even run? I don't mind waiting a bit for it to cycle, Im doing small sections at a time.

Any thoughts appreciated....

 

[The Cobbler]

I've used a needle scalier on my small 2 cyl 20 gal craftsman piston compressor with reasonable success.
you want a break from it and there's the opportunity when the tank is building .

 

[txvwnut]

It will run just not a efficiently as it would on a compressor that can deliver the needed CFM, plus the little compressor would most likely not shutoff the whole time you are using the scaler, especially if you get on the trigger and not let up. If you work small sections and give it rest you could probably get by just fine with smaller compressor, especially if you can regulate the pressure to the lowest setting that the scaler will work at.

 

[tyrenta]

A needle scaler *****, almost beyond all imagination, on anything less than 12cfm. You might as well be dropping the needle rods by hand from 18 inches after the first 20 seconds of air.

You need to be more specific as to what you want to do to some nasty maybe $300 frame.
What's the plan?
The chances of a needle scaler being the tool for the job is pretty slim.

I want to knock off the scale, rust convert/prime/paint and hope I can get 3 years or so out of it while I search for a replacement from out west to swap all my hardware onto. I'm using this as my learner, the more painful the better so next time I know what I'm doing....

It's beat up pretty badly being northeast, but no holes surprisingly in the usual spots, and almost a uniform heavy surface flake -- I've been original owner on it for 20-years and for some reason have a lot of free time to get to work

 

[tyrenta]

That is a very good and reasonable answer.
Thanks.

Ha yes thanks -- middle age wisdom I guess. Given the amount of heat, PBblaster, cobalt bits, and knuckles I've gone through I may regret it, but I'm a sucker for pain and have learned more than I thought possible in 3 weeks already so I'm going to keep going....

 

[WVBrady]

I used a needle scaler on my rusty truck rims. I found that a wire wheel worked much better.

 

[tyrenta]

I found a needle scaler that isn't so industrial and will do the trick for me -- 5 CFM like the rest of my tools, so I'm going to compromise with the best 30g 120v compressor I can get.

2 Questions:

1) Is Industrial Air the OEM for this 30g 1.9hp DeWalt (DXCMLA1983054)?
https://www.homedepot.com/p/DEWALT-...ectric-Air-Compressor-DXCMLA1983054/204068467

This IA model (ILA1883054) has the same exact look/specs (along with a few other relabeled units)
http://www.industrialairusa.com/prod_detail.php?model=ILA1883054&cat=2

but i can get the dewalt right now from AutoAnything.com and save $50.

2) Industrial Air has an aluminum head unit also (model IL1983013) that I can't find any info on, online info is very sparse, does anyone know if this is newer/worth the extra $50-100+extra ship time? It's same airflow specs but saves 30lbs on a portable unit over the cast iron and also operates @ 130PSI vs 155PSI.
http://www.industrialairusa.com/prod_detail.php?model=IL1983013&cat=2

Thanks for any help I've been looking around for a few hrs for OEM manuf for these units but not having much luck, but my best guess is IA? I realize I may be totally off on these assumptions I know nothing about compressor components/manuf so apologies in advance if so.

My current need is 120v (semi)portable so I'm looking for the best 30g 2hp unit I can get that will do at leas 5cfm @90 that I can find. If the DeWalt is the same as the IA, I'll go that route, unless the aluminum head makes a meaningful difference....

 

[ItsNemo]

Most needle scalers are just air hammers inside from a mechanism perspective. A few short bursts are easy for any compressor, but continuous run is not going to be fun. You can use one to knock off the big chunks but I'd recommend just using an aggressive wire wheel for the rest.

 

[Downwindtracker 2]

Most CFM and horsepower ratings are full of hot air. 15amp at 220volts gives about 3hp, in spite of what they say, and 10 SCFM , so the most you can squeeze out a 15amp plug at 110 is 1.5hp.

 

[Maddog1337]

3rd or 4th gen T4R? I know both are bad.

3rd gens you need to check the rear control arm mounts, the passenger side more so. Seen so many of those busted off. Next are the rear shock mounts, a lot of those punch through. My frame rail has been patched before, they sell made in USA kits to patch.

I had the same ambition you did to salvage it. I bought a HF angle grinder, Corroseal to convert, and was considering POR-15. In the end with how bad mine was I just didn't feel like doing all of that work. Especially when you're on your back with tight goggles so rust doesn't fall in your eyes, and a respirator that gets in the way. I slapped some Corroseal on the rear diff and just keep the entire underside drenched in Fluid Film. The lesson to learn here is never to buy a rust belt car. The problem with the 3GT4Rs is the cult like following and how quickly they sell. Would be risky to take a flight and buy one. Despite all of that, I love the damn thing to death.

Right about here I realized this was pointless
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Fluid Film every 6 months or so
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Running boards on because my rockers are paper. Currently have coated in marine grade Fluid Film and hoping nobody pokes em.

Good luck! If you have any 3rd gen questions let me know.

 

[skulldrinker]

You might want to pick up a used tank to couple to that small compressor. You would get your tool to work but wait longer for the pressure to catch up after you run it down. Might seem to take an hour to fill up 2 tanks.

 

[Stooge]

cleaning up a frame with a needle scaler sounds like a good way to spend a lot of time on something without getting much done. Wire wheel on a grinder would be the way I would go/ have gone several times, most recently a few weeks ago on my buick frame, though I've used them on cars when the body's are on. Even if you don't already have an angle grinder, a quick trip to a lowes or home depot, you could probably walk out with a more than capable grinder and a wheel that isn't going to blow apart for under $75 and have a much easier, more efficient time.

this type or the cup type, though I used the non cup style the most
20200418_145126 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

Basically a single pass to go from what looked like very questionable, to nice and shiny, 83yr old frame

20200418_123032 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

Had the whole giant frame done in about 9 or 10 hrs, (with breaks)

20200419_135728 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

 

[tyrenta]

Most CFM and horsepower ratings are full of hot air. 15amp at 220volts gives about 3hp, in spite of what they say, and 10 SCFM , so the most you can squeeze out a 15amp plug at 110 is 1.5hp.

Thanks that's helpful -- validates me looking at only units that can convert to 220 when I eventually run it to my garage.

Any thoughts on that aluminum block model that costs $50-100 more vs the cast iron? It looks like besides weight savings (170lb vs 185lb) I assume it runs cooler/lasts longer? But @130psi vs 155psi on the same size tank it must lose some available volume, and I can't find any reviews on it or if it is a newer model/motor. Maybe the weight savings is the 130psi tank vs 155?

 

[tyrenta]

3rd or 4th gen T4R? I know both are bad.

3rd gens you need to check the rear control arm mounts, the passenger side more so. Seen so many of those busted off. Next are the rear shock mounts, a lot of those punch through. My frame rail has been patched before, they sell made in USA kits to patch.

I had the same ambition you did to salvage it. I bought a HF angle grinder, Corroseal to convert, and was considering POR-15. In the end with how bad mine was I just didn't feel like doing all of that work. Especially when you're on your back with tight goggles so rust doesn't fall in your eyes, and a respirator that gets in the way. I slapped some Corroseal on the rear diff and just keep the entire underside drenched in Fluid Film. The lesson to learn here is never to buy a rust belt car. The problem with the 3GT4Rs is the cult like following and how quickly they sell. Would be risky to take a flight and buy one. Despite all of that, I love the damn thing to death.

Running boards on because my rockers are paper. Currently have coated in marine grade Fluid Film and hoping nobody pokes em.

Good luck! If you have any 3rd gen questions let me know.

3rd gen, same year as you. 2000 limited, 4.10 no locker, 154k miles, I'm original owner. i need to replace the entire rear axle housing the pumpkin rusted through a few years ago and I managed to limp along for years using it as my in town only car with some well placed JB Weld (still going! but i was careless and cooked the gears at one point knowing I was going to replace the whole thing anyway, so they whine quite a bit). Just did the Tundra 231mm upgrade, which is what got me going on this project again.....I know about those RCA mounts also, mine are rusty but don't seem worse than the rest of the rear 1/2 of the truck, which looks terrible but I don't think I have any soft spots. I'll post some pics for all you guys to tell me to run from later tonight.....

I just pulled the rear bumper, spare tire hardware, and running boards so it opened up the frame a lot to be able to work on. I'm going to actually put a 1-1.5" body lift on it next just so I can get more access to the frame...then see where I stand before putting more into it. I have a replacement rear axle sitting in my garage also so that can go on after the lift...

My main decision point now -- with the main frame rust removed, what to use for rust converter (corroseal is one on my research list), and what to cover that with. I used Eastwood rust encapsulator on the exposed front end when doing the TBU, but I don't like how it just chips off when it gets knocked by something, and its already bleed through in a few places. So I'm thinking strip what I can, convert, prime if needed (2 part spray or the new eastwood encapsulator platinum or POR15), then paint. yes a lot of work so I want to get the right plan. Internal frame is going to get blown out, then eastwood internal frame coat & fluid film after that.

Edit: here you go!
View media item 104219View media item 104218View media item 104220View media item 104221
That last one is the gas slid -- gotta go

And here's the TBU
View media item 104234View media item 104235View media item 104236

 

[tyrenta]

cleaning up a frame with a needle scaler sounds like a good way to spend a lot of time on something without getting much done. Wire wheel on a grinder would be the way I would go/ have gone several times, most recently a few weeks ago on my buick frame, though I've used them on cars when the body's are on. Even if you don't already have an angle grinder, a quick trip to a lowes or home depot, you could probably walk out with a more than capable grinder and a wheel that isn't going to blow apart for under $75 and have a much easier, more efficient time.

this type or the cup type, though I used the non cup style the most

Basically a single pass to go from what looked like very questionable, to nice and shiny, 83yr old frame
Had the whole giant frame done in about 9 or 10 hrs, (with breaks)

Looks great! I do have a grinder and some wheels also, but they can't reach everywhere. I was planning to use both. I do have to say grinders with that wheel you have do scare the hell out of me when I'm under the car at an awkward angle!

 

[Downwindtracker 2]

As for the being able to go from 110 to 220, all that means you will have motor that draws 15 amps or 7.5 amps. It's not a bad thing converting from 110 to 220, I have a couple of saws that tripped breakers on 110 but on 220 never did and had more surge power.

Industrial standard mill air is 90psi, so most tools are designed to run at that pressure, but down a 3/8" hose with 1/4" air fitting the air tool likely won't see that.

As far as consumer grade , I can only speak from experience with a Speedaire and a Rolair head(pump). I wore out the Made In USA Speedaire and replaced the components as they wore out with made in China . In the store there was a upright with a big American flag on it, but exactly the same motor, head, and pressure switch as I had changed out with.

 

[Maddog1337]

3rd gen, same year as you. 2000 limited, 4.10 no locker, 154k miles, I'm original owner. i need to replace the entire rear axle housing the pumpkin rusted through a few years ago and I managed to limp along for years using it as my in town only car with some well placed JB Weld (still going! but i was careless and cooked the gears at one point knowing I was going to replace the whole thing anyway, so they whine quite a bit). Just did the Tundra 231mm upgrade, which is what got me going on this project again.....I know about those RCA mounts also, mine are rusty but don't seem worse than the rest of the rear 1/2 of the truck, which looks terrible but I don't think I have any soft spots. I'll post some pics for all you guys to tell me to run from later tonight.....

I just pulled the rear bumper, spare tire hardware, and running boards so it opened up the frame a lot to be able to work on. I'm going to actually put a 1-1.5" body lift on it next just so I can get more access to the frame...then see where I stand before putting more into it. I have a replacement rear axle sitting in my garage also so that can go on after the lift...

My main decision point now -- with the main frame rust removed, what to use for rust converter (corroseal is one on my research list), and what to cover that with. I used Eastwood rust encapsulator on the exposed front end when doing the TBU, but I don't like how it just chips off when it gets knocked by something, and its already bleed through in a few places. So I'm thinking strip what I can, convert, prime if needed (2 part spray or the new eastwood encapsulator platinum or POR15), then paint. yes a lot of work so I want to get the right plan. Internal frame is going to get blown out, then eastwood internal frame coat & fluid film after that.

Your pictures didn't load for me.

Suspected it was a 3rd gen. Same year, and I actually have 154k on the clock too, what are the odds. I thought mine was bad. If your pumpkin was that bad how in the hell is your frame still holding up? I have to ask, haha.

Do the Tundra brakes bite harder or does your pedal travel further to the floor? I read some people had to swap the Tundra master cylinder, maybe they just didn't bleed properly.

Where did you get the replacement rear axle? I probably wouldn't explore swapping but just curious to know the price if it was an option. Such a shame mine has a locker but it's frozen since I purchased it. I know there's ways to get it moving but I'm not taking a rustbucket wheeling anyway.

I would leave your spare off, you'll end up killing someone on the highway. My cable was pristine but the bracket holding it was in crumbles.

I have Bilstein 5100s all around. I had them installed so honestly not sure what front perch they're on, but I know I'm using spacers and springs in the back. My recommendation would be to get the Moog springs if you're not wheeling. I used the '99 Moog tall springs in the front, and just regular 3rd gen Moog rears which were like $30 a pair on Amazon. So far no sag on either. Be wary as well lifting on what I'm assuming are original CV axles, although a modest lift 20 y/o rubber is no joke, boots may tear. I have Cardone axles now.

I'm sure you know the LBJ failures as well, that's almost just a regular maintenance item if you own one. Make sure to get new bolts.

Corroseal is pretty highly regarded as a converter but remember it's just a primer. The truck probably isn't worth the POR15 top coat cost. Maybe just some cheap Rustoleum or Eastwood. I'm a big believer in just drenching in Fluid Film, but I also don't work on major stuff on the T4R. I know mechanics have been dumbfounded on the goo in the past.

I admire the determination. Such a shame to have rust take what otherwise would be a half million mile vehicle. I know I'm in the same boat. I really think the 3rd gen is such an iconic looking body style that really embodies the 90's and early 00's. It's a great looking rig and will drive til the engine rusts out. I envy non-salt state owners to no end...

 

[tyrenta]

OK I lost a few pics but added above

Yep LBJ on the list

Tundra brakes are #1 to do -- much better. Problems with other have to be bleed issues. Do the 231mm if your wheels can clear it.

Rear axle I ordered from a yard in Mississippi -- figured I would be getting a rust free unit but it was half caked in mud and some snail shells, probably Katrina....as long as the seals held it should be good. Id have to look it up but I think was around $500 shipped, full unit with axels drums etc.

im planning on a 35" build out -- go big or go home. worst case I shelve the parts until I find a good frame :0

 

[tyrenta]

As for the being able to go from 110 to 220, all that means you will have motor that draws 15 amps or 7.5 amps. It's not a bad thing converting from 110 to 220, I have a couple of saws that tripped breakers on 110 but on 220 never did and had more surge power.

Industrial standard mill air is 90psi, so most tools are designed to run at that pressure, but down a 3/8" hose with 1/4" air fitting the air tool likely won't see that.

As far as consumer grade , I can only speak from experience with a Speedaire and a Rolair head(pump). I wore out the Made In USA Speedaire and replaced the components as they wore out with made in China . In the store there was a upright with a big American flag on it, but exactly the same motor, head, and pressure switch as I had changed out with.

yes thanks -- in the few hours Ive spent on looking at consumer models there are 4-5 with the exact same specs that all look the same except for colors. I figured just get the OEM though on a consumer maybe not possible. The Industrial Air brand is the only one with that aluminum motor option so was guessing they are the OEM but clearly could be very wrong on that.....

 

[Downwindtracker 2]

I don't know anything about the Industrial brand, It's just that the sawmills, steel mills or even the packaging plant, decaffeinated coffee anybody, the air pressure in the mills was set at 90psi.

 

[Maddog1337]

OK I lost a few pics but added above

Yep LBJ on the list

Tundra brakes are #1 to do -- much better. Problems with other have to be bleed issues. Do the 231mm if your wheels can clear it.

Rear axle I ordered from a yard in Mississippi -- figured I would be getting a rust free unit but it was half caked in mud and some snail shells, probably Katrina....as long as the seals held it should be good. Id have to look it up but I think was around $500 shipped, full unit with axels drums etc.

im planning on a 35" build out -- go big or go home. worst case I shelve the parts until I find a good frame :0

Great pics. Yeah I've heard great things about the TBU. Your's is about on par with mine but maybe a little bit worse. Good job on the frame resto while doing the brakes. Thanks for sharing the axle ballpark price. I've read axle seals as something to do as well. Actually rounded off the ~22mm bolt rear diff fill bolt it was so bad. Needed the torch, haha. Well anyway best of luck on the resto!

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[strutaeng]

Those photos you posted looks like you would wind up with a Swiss cheese frame. I wouldn't waste my time. Just get a frame from the south and swap it. I have a Emglo 2 HP that supplies something like 8 CFM and bought the large HF needle scaler.

The job at hand was removing dried mortar from drill mixing paddles, and let me tell you, it stunk! Took for ever it seemed like. https://www.harborfreight.com/air-needle-scaler-1108.html

I was just trying it out and figured I could use the needle scaler for removing welding slag. I think that may be a better use for it. I happen to have another compressor that puts out about 24 CFM and think I will use it next time I need the needle scaler. It's an air hog, LOL.

An angle grinder with wire wheel would be much better for rust removal.

 

[Stooge]

Looks great! I do have a grinder and some wheels also, but they can't reach everywhere. I was planning to use both. I do have to say grinders with that wheel you have do scare the hell out of me when I'm under the car at an awkward angle!

heh, yeah they scare the hell out of me too, especially when they grab something and it bounces a bit, but they work really well. it was a lot less scary being able to stand up and use it, compared to when ive been lying under a car and using one.
Looking at those pictures, it looks all too familiar to a buddy's 2000 4runner that he finally got rid of last yr. I really hated working on that thing with all of the rust issues it had and it was getting scary just to be in. Were the 4runners from that era left out of the frame recalls Toyota had awhile back?

 

[tyrenta]

Those photos you posted looks like you would wind up with a Swiss cheese frame. I wouldn't waste my time. Just get a frame from the south and swap it. I have a Emglo 2 HP that supplies something like 8 CFM and bought the large HF needle scaler.

The job at hand was removing dried mortar from drill mixing paddles, and let me tell you, it stunk! Took for ever it seemed like. https://www.harborfreight.com/air-needle-scaler-1108.html

I was just trying it out and figured I could use the needle scaler for removing welding slag. I think that may be a better use for it. I happen to have another compressor that puts out about 24 CFM and think I will use it next time I need the needle scaler. It's an air hog, LOL.

An angle grinder with wire wheel would be much better for rust removal.

I may have to take this back, but I think it looks worse that it is. I'm going to use the scaler and a wheel, but the scaler should also help me find out if there are any soft spots.

 

[tyrenta]

Were the 4runners from that era left out of the frame recalls Toyota had awhile back?

Unfortunately no, it was the Tacos from 95-00 and Tundras 01-03. They claimed it was a specific factory issue and 4runners are imported from Japan so come off a different production line.