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Mistitled breakers - short circuit with wire?

sammerdog

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Okay - at work, I'm moving a few 220 outlets to coincide with kitchen equipment being relocated. Coffee machines, ice machine, steam table.

Electrician that wired the building (new in '05) mis-labled the breaker panel. ie: coffee station circuit breaker is labled as "South parking lot lights". The architect's electrical schematics are different still from both the breaker box labels AND reality.

To make sure I'm killing appropriate power, I'm "shorting" the circuits on purpose - short length of #10 from hot to ground. I HATE DOING IT THIS WAY!

It's an up and running facility, so simply killing the power to everything is not an option. Tried the old "kill a circuit at a time routine"..... wound up spending a ****-load of time resetting TV's and other video equipment.

Is there a better or more professional way to determine what breakers power which circuits? I've seen countless other electricians do it this way over the years, and thought it looked like a hack way of doing things.

Full disclosure: No, I am NOT an electrician, but rather a pretty cautious guy keeping wire lengths, guages, etc the same as what is currently in the building, just terminating them in diff positions for the new kitchen staff.
 
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walrus

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Is there a better or more professional way to determine what breakers power which circuits? I've seen countless other electricians do it this way over the years, and thought it looked like a hack way of doing things.

Not only is it hack, its dangerous. Greenlee and other make tools to find breakers and they work. I have the same issue in some of stores I go into, they get POed when there POS equipment goes down cause I'm turning off the wrong breakers:lol_hitti. I'll try to find a link

Here ya go, its similar to what I have. Takes some practice but it's always led me to the right breaker
http://www.toolup.com/greenlee/CS-2...utm_term=greenlee+CS-2072K&CAWELAID=317976936
 
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mrb

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DONT DO THAT. Bad, bad idea is dangerous and can damage equipment. Are you a licensed electrician? If not, you should not be touching anything other than in your own home.
 

Aceman

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schematics are different still from both the breaker box labels AND reality.

To make sure I'm killing appropriate power, I'm "shorting" the circuits on purpose - short length of #10 from hot to ground. I HATE DOING IT THIS WAY!

Full disclosure: No, I am NOT an electrician, but rather a pretty cautious guy keeping wire lengths, guages, etc the same as what is currently in the building, just terminating them in diff positions for the new kitchen staff.

I'll bite my tongue. Shorting out circuits can possibly trip the main. Then how pissed off would your coworkers be?

Why can't you hire a REAL electrician to label the panel properly? Second of all, you shouldn't be doing electrical work at a business. This isn't your home(that's different) and you're clearly not qualified. Third, if you're moving 240 receps, you should be looking for 2 pole breakers that feed them. I don't know how you accidentally shut off some 110 volt tv's/video equipment when those are most likely using single pole breakers unless they're on a MWBC.

Probably the easiest method for finding the circuit for you would be to buy a cheap amp clamp and amp one circuit at a time while someone else cycles a load on and off.
 

Mickey O

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Use a circuit tracer or plug in something that draws a bit of current and put an amp meter on the different circuits until you think you have it then turn off what you have plugged in and the current draw will drop and you should have the right circuit, turn it off and use a meter at the receptacle (or end point) to be sure it's off.
 

PassnThru

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Okay - at work, I'm moving a few 220 outlets to coincide with kitchen equipment being relocated. Coffee machines, ice machine, steam table.

[/I]

Wow - I never imagined that they actually made a coffee maker that ran on 240. That must be a serious machine and I think I want one :spit:
I have to agree with previous posters. I will do things at my house that I won't do at work or anyone else's house. As far as anyone knows I don't even know what an outlet looks like. I don't need that stress - you don't either.
 

Mickey O

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I hate to admit this but I got a cheater too, plug with switch wired to ground.

That has got to be a Michigan thing, I have a friend from Michigan (now an electrical engineer) that used to have and use one of those, him and you two guys from Michigan are the only people I have ever heard of having and using the method. What's wrong with you Michigan people?
 

Torque1st

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I hate to admit this but I got a cheater too, plug with switch wired to ground.
I have one also made from salvage so $=0. I don't have the little tracer device. I should probably get one tho. It just comes down to priorities. I don't do any electrical work outside of my home.
 
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sammerdog

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Why can't you hire a REAL electrician to label the panel properly? .......if you're moving 240 receps, you should be looking for 2 pole breakers that feed them. I don't know how you accidentally shut off some 110 volt tv's/video equipment when those are most likely using single pole breakers unless they're on a MWBC.

Ahhhh, there's the rub.

In theory, a "real" electrician wired the building - one of the bigger commercial electric outfits in West Michigan (who happens to employ the local electric/mechanical inspector....) Anyways - half the outlets in the place don't work, that alone is what got me approaching all of this cautiously and humbly asking questions. Already replaced one outlet that caught fire last fall when a housekeeper was running a stupid vacuum.

On the 110 issue, power feeds down into a typical 220 box, then one line branches out of the 220 box to feed a 110 GFI outlet with the happy little glowing green light. No matter what breaker my counterpart flipped, that darn green light was on, until we flipped the breaker for "upstairs mezanine" (again, nowhere near the kitchen).

I was always under the assumption that 110 and 220 had to be run in seperate conduit even if they are going to terminate somewhere close to each other.

With that in mind, I am planning on **** canning the 110 "ride-on" outlet when the 220 is moved for the coffee maker (yeah, it's a big'un).

I appreciate the leads on both the circuit tester and especially Mickey O's tip on looking for amperage draw after plugging into a outlet (if both top and bottom plug are operative).

Full disclosure: This whole experience is an eye opener for me as I see just how crappy some of the work from licensed electricians and even worse - licensed plumbers, is. The dudes that put this place together must hold stock in companies making wire ties/zip strips.... They sure used enough of them things.... I always thought there were tests, etc that one would have to pass to get licensed.
 

mrb

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Ahhhh, there's the rub.

In theory, a "real" electrician wired the building - one of the bigger commercial electric outfits in West Michigan (who happens to employ the local electric/mechanical inspector....) Anyways - half the outlets in the place don't work, that alone is what got me approaching all of this cautiously and humbly asking questions. Already replaced one outlet that caught fire last fall when a housekeeper was running a stupid vacuum.

On the 110 issue, power feeds down into a typical 220 box, then one line branches out of the 220 box to feed a 110 GFI outlet with the happy little glowing green light. No matter what breaker my counterpart flipped, that darn green light was on, until we flipped the breaker for "upstairs mezanine" (again, nowhere near the kitchen).

I was always under the assumption that 110 and 220 had to be run in seperate conduit even if they are going to terminate somewhere close to each other.

With that in mind, I am planning on **** canning the 110 "ride-on" outlet when the 220 is moved for the coffee maker (yeah, it's a big'un).

I appreciate the leads on both the circuit tester and especially Mickey O's tip on looking for amperage draw after plugging into a outlet (if both top and bottom plug are operative).

Full disclosure: This whole experience is an eye opener for me as I see just how crappy some of the work from licensed electricians and even worse - licensed plumbers, is. The dudes that put this place together must hold stock in companies making wire ties/zip strips.... They sure used enough of them things.... I always thought there were tests, etc that one would have to pass to get licensed.

you do realize doing this work is illegal right? Just because the previous contractors did a substandard job does not make it ok for you to do this work.
 

walrus

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you do realize doing this work is illegal right? Just because the previous contractors did a substandard job does not make it ok for you to do this work.

He's in Michigan, its currently not the land of opportunity. A guy has to do what a guy has to do.
 

mrb

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He's in Michigan, its currently not the land of opportunity. A guy has to do what a guy has to do.

I understand and respect that, but breaking the law and assuming all kinds of personal liability in the name of saving the boss a few bucks isnt exactly self serving.
 

MrMark

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licensed electrician is meaningless. Means someone paid a fee. Nearly impossible to get a decent job out of an electrician or plumber nowadays. There are exceptions, of course. But finding that exception is hard.
 

mrb

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licensed electrician is meaningless. Means someone paid a fee. Nearly impossible to get a decent job out of an electrician or plumber nowadays. There are exceptions, of course. But finding that exception is hard.

not really. its nowhere near as simple as paying a fee (at least here in CA). Its actually easy to get good work out of a contractor if you are paying for good work. When you're a tract home builder paying piecework, thats another story...
 

Aceman

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you do realize doing this work is illegal right? Just because the previous contractors did a substandard job does not make it ok for you to do this work.

I agree with MRB.

Just because this building probably got wired by the low bidder doesn't mean you throw caution to the wind and start shorting receps out.

Does your company even have a safety policy?

licensed electrician is meaningless. Means someone paid a fee. Nearly impossible to get a decent job out of an electrician or plumber nowadays. There are exceptions, of course. But finding that exception is hard.

I figured you'd be along sooner or later to take a stab at licensed electricians without offering any real input to the thread at hand. I realize at this point you just can't help it.

And if you think I only had to pay a fee to become licensed you just don't have a clue.
 

klogan121

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That has got to be a Michigan thing, I have a friend from Michigan (now an electrical engineer) that used to have and use one of those, him and you two guys from Michigan are the only people I have ever heard of having and using the method. What's wrong with you Michigan people?

Easy on the Michigan folks! :)
 

MrMark

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What's there to provide input on? Shorting out circuits is dangerous, does something more need be said? There are a million ways of figuring out which breaker protects a given circuit. Use an ammeter and figure it out.
 
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VC455

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Maybe I missed something, "circuit tracer", I have this cheap little thing,( ~<<$5~ $10?? )plug it into an outlet go to pannel, run this hand held 'radio" receiver up and down the breakers, it beeps when ON the circuit...(?)
 

mrb

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OK, I'll bite. What's involved beyond paying a fee? Don't tell me the TEST

how about hundreds of hours of on the job experience, plus education requirements, and yes the test.
 

MrMark

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how about hundreds of hours of on the job experience, plus education requirements, and yes the test.

Are those hours of on the job experience required to get a license? How are they tracked and who reports them to the state agency. What type of work qualifies for counting these hours. Sounds like you are talking about Union stuff. I am not asking about Union I am asking about State legislation on electrician licensing. What education requirements are you speaking about?
 

MrMark

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If you can, however, show a college degree in anything from anywhere you can knock the working on your house down to one year before you can take the test, pays your money and gets your LICENSE!

Boy, I feel a lot better now.
 

mrb

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http://www.cslb.ca.gov/Resources/GuidesAndPamphlets/BlueprintForGettingLicensed.pdf

Four years experience as a contractor. Is this what you are talking about? It also says working on your own house counts. So if I have been working on my house for 4 years I can take the test. Did you know that

Says there are no education requirements whatsoever.

owner-builder work has to be documented through permits, certification by a building official, etc. You cannot simply claim you worked on your house and get a license.
 

916matt

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http://www.cslb.ca.gov/Resources/GuidesAndPamphlets/BlueprintForGettingLicensed.pdf

Four years experience as a contractor. Is this what you are talking about? It also says working on your own house counts. So if I have been working on my house for 4 years I can take the test. Did you know that

Says there are no education requirements whatsoever.

it is not as easy as you assume. people rant about shoddy work which gives us tradesmen bad names, but when was the last time you heard someone raving about the great work a contractor did for them? not very often because it is expected when you hire someone to do a job. so the discussions you hear about hired contractors for the most part is negative. there are some of us out there that take pride in what we do. the california state certification requirements are as follows... http://www.dir.ca.gov/t8/291_1.html
and yes to the OP, you can get in serious legal trouble if anything goes wrong now or in the future with no license or certification even if it is not something you touched. all it takes is 'well he was in that panel trying to fix the electrical problems, must be his fault'
 

MrMark

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I don't know what the California Apprenticeship council has to do with licensed C10 contractors . . . maybe you could explain?

I know some tradesman do good work, and I imagine that the ones posting on this board are among those that do good work. That doesn't change the fact that most don't, and this is no different than any other area of life and work. I wouldn't let the bottom 80 percent of any trade or profession do any work for me.

Just don't blow smoke about a minimal OJT of four years for an electrician being some great separator of the dullards and slackers from the cracker jacks. There is no education requirement and when you get right down to it, it really is about working under someone for a couple years, taking a test and paying a fee for a license. The test can't be hard or they would make it easier to get the pass rate up. The test can only be as hard as results in the desired pass rate for the population of test takers.

The fact of licensure is not the sine qua non for someone who is going to competent. It should be, but it isn't. Doesn't really matter a whole hill of beans in the end.
 
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sammerdog

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He's in Michigan, its currently not the land of opportunity. A guy has to do what a guy has to do.

Thank you for understanding Walrus. Trust me, there's a line of people ready to take my place if I start refusing to do things.

Maybe I missed something, "circuit tracer", I have this cheap little thing,( ~<<$5~ $10?? )plug it into an outlet go to pannel, run this hand held 'radio" receiver up and down the breakers, it beeps when ON the circuit...(?)

Is this similar to what you are describing?
http://cgi.ebay.com/CIRCUIT-BREAKER...lectrical_Equipment_Tools?hash=item4cee016801

If it is, that could be one of the handiest $14 I ever spent. Thank you VC455.
 

walrus

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http://www.cslb.ca.gov/Resources/GuidesAndPamphlets/BlueprintForGettingLicensed.pdf

Four years experience as a contractor. Is this what you are talking about? It also says working on your own house counts. So if I have been working on my house for 4 years I can take the test. Did you know that

Says there are no education requirements whatsoever.
Maybe in California thats true, not so in Maine. 4000 hrs of documented time as a helper to get a journeymens license, another 8000 hrs to get a Masters, plus 10 classes from a certified institution, classes are in wiring techniques, basic circuits, motors, code etc.
 
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sberry

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There are some slipshod states but MI is difficult and more so all the time. One of my big regrets is not putting a couple licenses in my pocket way back in the day when they were easier to get.
 

buddyboy

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you can get the license... but then you need to certify it by:

§291.1. Eligibility for Certification

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(a) In order to be certified, an applicant must have the required experience as set forth herein, and pass a certification examination under Section 291.3. An applicant must provide proof of experience which may be done by showing:

(1) successful completion of an apprenticeship program approved by the California Apprenticeship Council, the federal Bureau of Apprenticeship Training, or a state apprenticeship council authorized by the federal Bureau of Apprenticeship Training to approve apprenticeship programs, in the classification for which certification is sought; or


(2) on-the-job experience, as follows:


General Electrician: 8000 hours of work for a C-10 electrical contractor installing, constructing or maintaining electrical systems covered by the National Electrical Code. The 8000 hours must consist of work in two or more of the following areas, and the maximum number of hours in a particular area that may be counted toward the 8000 hour total are as follows:


Stock room and Material handling - 300 hours


Residential Wiring - 3000 hours


Commercial Wiring - 6000 hours


Industrial Wiring - 6000 hours


Voice Data and Video installation - 1500 hours


Underground Conduit installation - 750 hours


Troubleshooting and Maintenance - 1500 hours


Finish Work and fixtures - 600 hours


Fire/Life Safety, Nurse call - 600 hours


Residential Electrician: 4800 hours of work for a C-10 electrical contractor installing, constructing, or maintaining electrical systems covered by the National Electric Code. The 4800 hours must consist of work in one or more of the following areas, and the maximum number of hours in a particular area that may be counted toward the 4800 hour total are as follows:


Stock room and material handling - 300 hours


Residential Wiring - 4800 hours


Voice Data and Video installation - 150 hours


Underground Conduit installation - 300 hours


Troubleshooting and Maintenance - 600 hours


Finish work and fixture - 600 hours


Fire/Life Safety - 300 hours


Voice Data Video Technician: 4000 hours of work for a C-10 electrical contractor installing, constructing or maintaining any system that falls within the scope of National Electrical Code, Articles 725, 770 (non-composite cables only), 800 (non-hybrid cables only), 810 and 820. The 4000 hours must consist of work in one or more of the following areas, and the maximum number of hours in a particular area that may be counted toward the 4000 hour total are as follows:


Stock room and material handling - 300 hours


Installations, including wire pulling, terminations, control panels devices and finish work - 4000 hours


Troubleshooting and Maintenance - 750 hours


Trade Specific training related to Voice, Data, Video - 300 hours


Fire/Life Safety Technician: 4000 hours of work for a C-10 electrical contractor, involving the installation, construction or maintenance of systems as covered in Article 760 of the National Electrical Code. The 4000 hours must consist of work in one or more of the following areas, and the maximum number of hours in a particular area that may be counted toward the 4000 hour total are as follows:


Stock room and material handling - 300 hours


Installations, including wire pulling, terminations, control panels devices and finish work - 4000 hours


Troubleshooting and Maintenance - 750 hours


Nurse Call systems - 300 hours


Proprietary systems training related to Fire/Life Safety - 300 hours


The experience requirement for Fire/Life Safety Technician may also be satisfied by proof of NICET certification in Fire Alarm Systems at Level II or above. Nonresidential Lighting Technician: 2,000 hours of work installing, repairing and maintaining nonresidential lighting while employed by a C-10 electrical contractor engaged in the business of nonresidential lighting maintenance and retrofit installations. The 2,000 hours must consist of work in one or more of the following areas, and the maximum number of hours in a particular area that may be counted towards the 2,000 hour total are as follows:


Stockroom and material handling - 150 hours


Maintenance of lighting fixtures - 1750 hours


Installation of retrofit fixtures - 1500 hours


Trouble shooting and repairing - 500 hours


(b) Where an applicant holds a license as an electrician in another state and it is determined by the Chief DAS that the requirements for experience to hold a license in that state are comparable to the requirements of Section 291.1(a)(1) or Section 291.1(a)(2), the Chief may deem the applicant to have the required experience for certification.

(c) Where the applicant can show other experience, including military experience or relevant work for a low voltage systems contractor holding a C-7 license, the applicant may apply to the Chief DAS for credit toward some or all of the experience required under Section 291.1(a)(2) The Chief DAS may grant credit if the Chief determines that the experience is comparable to experience for which credit would be granted under Section 291.1(a)(1) or Section 291.1(a)(2).


Note: Authority cited: Section 3099, Labor Code. References: Sections 3099 and 3099.2, Labor Code.
 

buddyboy

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i think in california u need a license to own the company, but need to have certified people doing the work.
 

sberry

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Not sure about Calif but other places such as here you can own an electric contracting co without ever turning a screw, you need to have licensed master on the payroll. Many big out of state contractors, such as company building a power plant etc function this way. They hire all they people with the qualifications.
 

Karnage

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Ahhhh, there's the rub.

In theory, a "real" electrician wired the building - one of the bigger commercial electric outfits in West Michigan (who happens to employ the local electric/mechanical inspector....) Anyways - half the outlets in the place don't work, that alone is what got me approaching all of this cautiously and humbly asking questions. Already replaced one outlet that caught fire last fall when a housekeeper was running a stupid vacuum.

On the 110 issue, power feeds down into a typical 220 box, then one line branches out of the 220 box to feed a 110 GFI outlet with the happy little glowing green light. No matter what breaker my counterpart flipped, that darn green light was on, until we flipped the breaker for "upstairs mezanine" (again, nowhere near the kitchen).

I was always under the assumption that 110 and 220 had to be run in seperate conduit even if they are going to terminate somewhere close to each other.

With that in mind, I am planning on **** canning the 110 "ride-on" outlet when the 220 is moved for the coffee maker (yeah, it's a big'un).

I appreciate the leads on both the circuit tester and especially Mickey O's tip on looking for amperage draw after plugging into a outlet (if both top and bottom plug are operative).

Full disclosure: This whole experience is an eye opener for me as I see just how crappy some of the work from licensed electricians and even worse - licensed plumbers, is. The dudes that put this place together must hold stock in companies making wire ties/zip strips.... They sure used enough of them things.... I always thought there were tests, etc that one would have to pass to get licensed.

So if you know who did the work, why aren't you chasing them to fix it, surely you have an over seeing body to whom you could complain to?
 

MrMark

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i think in california u need a license to own the company, but need to have certified people doing the work.

I wonder about that. I have never seen anyone advertise they are certified. And I do believe the above statement is incorrect.

I see general contractors that claim they are allowed (and they are under the law which is a mistake IMO) that they can do electrical. Same with general contractors are allowed to do plumbing in CA. It's not right and it should be changed but that's the way it is now. We get general contractors hiring poor quality nonlicensed labor to do electrical and plumbing work under their general licenses. Perfectly allowable and no one with any expertise is anywhere on the job.

A real electrician will have a C10 license but as stated above it is not required to do electrical.

I am not clear on what the certification process is all about. It sounds like Union.
 
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Aceman

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licensed electrician is meaningless. Means someone paid a fee. Nearly impossible to get a decent job out of an electrician or plumber nowadays. There are exceptions, of course. But finding that exception is hard.

OK, I'll bite. What's involved beyond paying a fee? Don't tell me the TEST

Are those hours of on the job experience required to get a license? How are they tracked and who reports them to the state agency. What type of work qualifies for counting these hours. Sounds like you are talking about Union stuff. I am not asking about Union I am asking about State legislation on electrician licensing. What education requirements are you speaking about?

I find it kind of funny that the guy who thought he knew so much about what it took to get licensed(just paying a fee?) doesn't really seem to know much about it all.

Do you always shoot from the hip without checking your facts first?

Seems like I'm starting to sense a pattern reading your posts....

For the record, not all states are like CA. Oregon requires 8000 OJT hours plus 576 class hours to become a journeyman. Then I believe it's another 4 years(8000 hours?) at journeyman status before you can take the supervisors(master) test and be able to pull permits. Then you have continuing education you have to keep up on to keep your license during all of this.

I'm not saying there aren't dillards who make it through the program. The constant testing in school helps weed some of them out though....as well as the 4 year commitment before you can test for your j-card.

Union in OR requires 10000 OJT hours and 5 years of apprenticeship. I don't know the school hours required. I believe it's a lot more educational than the nonunion program though. Having said that, I'm not sure how the OJT experience compares either. I know a kid in the union program now and he sounds like he's more of a gopher than anything. Maybe the real hands on starts later in the apprenticeship for most of them?
 

oleguy

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in calif,a general contractor can do his own plumbind,electrical or any thing else he wants on his own projects.with out a specific license,he can't hire out as a plumber,electrician or anything else.calif is/was going with a cert for c10 holders and thier empleys.also no lice required if work being done is valued at or below 500$ labor and materials unless it is part of a larger project.such as a new house or new construction.a general contractors lic test contains all trades altho not as much as specific trades test.
 
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