mitsubishi or heat pump

[boat2230]

The building is 36Wx 40D ceiling is 12ft. Have an upstairs room 32x16w 8ft but side slope to 6ft at walls( due to truss) This room has r 30 under floor walls and r38 ceiling Down stairs has r19 walls and r 30 part of ceiling under room and blown in r 38 apx 10ft on either side of room which is open space. 5 inch slab with the blue board under it. It was a pole barn structure i put 5/8 dry wall on walls and ceiling down stairs and 1/2 inch up stairs wall and ceiling.Upstairs is for reloading and hanging out.

Main use will be year round in Delaware below freezing some during winter and hot and humid summer for hobby auto repair and resto as well as boat repair and building. so periods where temp will need to be maintained above 50 for weeks at a time for epoxy use and painting and cooled down in summer. There will be sanding and welding done as well. Once i retire around 10 year will be using more frequently.I like the idea of keeping shop at 50 so easier to warm up after work when needed I have read a ton on here of pros and cons for the mini splits vs heat pump. I am planning on using shop so thinking mini splits for energy but concerned if these uses will cause problems for air handling.

Then had two different guys come out to look at it to give me bids on is good with mini other is good with heat pump and both only wanted to quote they one they recommend because they felt i would not be happy with performance of other.

So two questions first which is best for my uses and second which is most efficient. Am will to spend more up front for life expectancy and efficiency. and on nights after work when using building for a couple of hours do not want to wait for temp to get there by time i am done. I was leaning towards the Mitsubishi but I am a little confused now hearing that the heat pump may be a better option and less cost. I plan on staying here till the end

 

[theoldwizard1]

So two questions first which is best for my uses and second which is most efficient. Am will to spend more up front for life expectancy and efficiency. and on nights after work when using building for a couple of hours do not want to wait for temp to get there by time i am done. I was leaning towards the Mitsubishi but I am a little confused now hearing that the heat pump may be a better option and less cost. I plan on staying here till the end

I am confused ! The Mitsubishi mini-split IS A HEAT PUMP ! It is just not a traditional style ducted heat pump.

Ductless (mini-split) heat pumps are very efficient and, if you buy the proper model (Mitsubishi Hyper Heat), will generate good heat down to almost zero.

Because you have such a large building you will need multiple air-handlers. At least one up stairs and at least 2 down stairs. You might even consider 2 separate compressors (one on each of the long sides) and 4 air handlers downstairs, especially if that area is totally open. The air handlers down stairs can be "slaved together" so you only have one thermostat. The upstairs air handler will have a separate air handler. This is the big win for the mini-split over a traditional heat pump or forced air/air conditioning system. Ceiling fans are a must.

I can not speak to the longevity of mini-splits vs traditional heat pumps.

 

[boat2230]

Thank you that helps a lot. I did nothing to clairify if it was a mini split or a traditional heat pump unit his way of difrerentanting was by saying we would run one large duct down middle of downstairs that would get smaller at far end with vents on each side . In my ignorance and lack of understanding did not clarify the source for that one longs duct just assumed it was a traditional heat pump. Can the long duct be done with a mini split? And indinwire shop for ceiling fansl

 

[theoldwizard1]

In my ignorance and lack of understanding did not clarify the source for that one longs duct just assumed it was a traditional heat pump. Can the long duct be done with a mini split?

Mini-split heat pumps are also called DUCT-LESS !

A typical mini-split interior air-handler will be mounted on an exterior wall, near the ceiling, and will look something like this

Because there is no ducting to spread the conditioned air around I recommended multiple air handlers, 2 for each of the long exterior wall and ceiling fans.


Maybe not the best tutorial : Mini-Split Systems: Everything You Need to Know

 

[justinjoyal]

I'd go with a heat pump combined with a air handler with ducts.

Better air filtration and delivery. Will last as long or longer.

 

[yeldogt]

No NG available ?? What's the electric rate?

 

[FrancisJ]

Air-based heat pumps (generally) are at their design limits delivering warm air in cold temps/climates.

I've been using water-based heat pumps (open loops - dedicated well feed, discharge into 2 acre pond) and have seen remarkable efficiency gains..........that combined with solar is about as good as tech delivers these days..........

 

[theoldwizard1]

Air-based heat pumps (generally) are at their design limits delivering warm air in cold temps/climates.

Not true on some of the mini-split heat pumps ! They remain 100% efficient down to <10F !

 

[Moose364]

I replaced the traditional (not a Heat pump) system with Mini splits mine are Gree Brand they are 23 seer units, I was looking at over $10,000 to just get close to 23 seer plus needing new duct's installed so I went with the mini splits I have 2 x 12000 units and 18000 and one 9000 unit in a bed room. I found that I could get 4 individual units cheaper the going with 1 unit and either 2 or 4 handlers. Plus even if 1 goes down I still have 3 running, complete install with the mini splits was a little over $5000 I ran my own electric and did the install on the units the only thing I had a HVAC guy do with test the lines and pull a Vac on the lines. We didn't have any day's this winter below 0 but we had some in the single digit and had no problem with heat.
Our electric bill has dropped 40% and that's a very conservative number. 2 summers ago I bill was north of $300.00 last summer $180.00 was as high as it got with the mini splits and the house was 10x cooler

 

[Highbeam]

Not true on some of the mini-split heat pumps ! They remain 100% efficient down to <10F !

Woops. I think this is a mistake. The MS are able to deliver 100% of their rated output down to 10 degrees but they are much much less efficient at that temperature than they are at warmer temperatures. Perhaps approaching 100% which is the efficiency of straight electric resistance heat and nothing to brag about.

 

[justinjoyal]

Woops. I think this is a mistake. The MS are able to deliver 100% of their rated output down to 10 degrees but they are much much less efficient at that temperature than they are at warmer temperatures. Perhaps approaching 100% which is the efficiency of straight electric resistance heat and nothing to brag about.

Wrong.

100% of their efficiency. Not a COP of 1.

Many mini-splits nowadays deliver between 75 and 100% of their rated BTU output at temp as cold as -22F.

 

[mrpizza]

Wrong.

100% of their efficiency. Not a COP of 1.

Many mini-splits nowadays deliver between 75 and 100% of their rated BTU output at temp as cold as -22F.

Carrier has a few of them now that will deliver 100% down to those temps. And they are approaching 40 SEER doing it too. Insanely efficient!

 

[dsimatt]

Carrier has a few of them now that will deliver 100% down to those temps. And they are approaching 40 SEER doing it too. Insanely efficient!

So is carrier a good product, i think they are rebadged gree units if i remeber right. Minis are still just catching on up here so not alot of brand options besides Mitsubishi.

 

[justinjoyal]

So is carrier a good product, i think they are rebadged gree units if i remeber right. Minis are still just catching on up here so not alot of brand options besides Mitsubishi.

No worries

 

[Tejay]

The highest seer rating I can find on a Carrier states approaching 20.5
Am I missing something??

 

[justinjoyal]

The highest seer rating I can find on a Carrier states approaching 20.5
Am I missing something??

Yes.

http://www.carrier.com/residential/en/us/products/ductless-systems/38grq/

 

[theoldwizard1]

I believe Mitsubishi and Fujitsu outsell Carrier in the ductless category.

Probably the most important things is a reputable installer.

 

[dsimatt]

No worries

I have a guy that went out on his own that does my hot water stuff and he has been telling me to go with carrier mostly because that is what he sells but he also says they are cheaper to?

Mitsubishi has the higher cost but also the most dealers, and i think the better warranty so i guess its just more things to look into.

 

[justinjoyal]

I do not sell Carrier, but I sell Gree.

We have models with 10 years warranty (parts and labor), but it could be different in the US.

 

[yeldogt]

For many years Fujitsu was the top recommendation ... Mitsubishi is the leader today. Daikin was the big Japanese brand that dominated for years -- they bought Goodman. I don't think you can go wrong with any of those three. I have not spoken to anyone recently who disagrees with Mitsubishi having the best HP ... especially with the 4 and under head count.

Many of them use a Toshiba compressor. I don't know who makes the Carrier mini-split or the compressor they use. In the conventional ducted split systems, Carrier uses a 5 speed Toshiba in one of the Infinity heat pumps - so they have a relationship. I installed a 5stage Carrier 25 VNA8 as well as a 3 head Mitsubishi hyper heat in on of my places almost two years ago. HP's are impressive today.

I also have an LG HP that I use mostly for AC in my studio -- installed about 10 years ago .. working flawless. I also did a Fujitsu HP in a cabin about 5 years ago -- not a hyper heat .. also no issue.

I would find out who makes the compressor -- before I pain to install a cheap unit.

 

[Tejay]

Yes.

http://www.carrier.com/residential/en/us/products/ductless-systems/38grq/

Thanks

 

[theoldwizard1]

The real bottom line is BUYER BEWARE !

You need to read and UNDERSTAND the specs of ANY brand !!

For many years Fujitsu was the top recommendation ... Mitsubishi is the leader today. Daikin was the big Japanese brand that dominated for years -- they bought Goodman. I don't think you can go wrong with any of those three.

CONCUR !!

 

[yeldogt]

The big guys in the USA are late to the game -- I don't think anyone is actually making them -- they are rebranded. Make sure to check.

Both LG and Panasonic have come out with new lines....

Don't think I would buy anything at the same .. or close price to Mitsubishi .. especially if needing low temp HP

 

[tlmartin84]

My building is 34 x 44 Ceiling is 11' at walls 16' at peak. R30 overhead, R19 in the walls. Has a loft in the back, and a paint room.

I debated for months about which route to go, heat pump vs minisplit.

I purchased a NOS trane heat pump and air handler. 2014 models........ 13 seer, 2.5 tons, and installed 10kW heatstrip. It heats my shop really nice, and through the winter here (avg 30 degrees F) my heat bill was 40 bucks holding it at 45 degrees and cranking it up to 60 on weekends.

Ohh I had $1300.00 in the NOS system. I installed it (wiring, placement etc). My local guys came out and charged me $600 to run the linesets and get it charged up.

I AM GLAD I WENT THIS ROUTE!

 

[wellshii]

I replaced the traditional (not a Heat pump) system with Mini splits mine are Gree Brand they are 23 seer units, I was looking at over $10,000 to just get close to 23 seer plus needing new duct's installed so I went with the mini splits I have 2 x 12000 units and 18000 and one 9000 unit in a bed room. I found that I could get 4 individual units cheaper the going with 1 unit and either 2 or 4 handlers. Plus even if 1 goes down I still have 3 running, complete install with the mini splits was a little over $5000 I ran my own electric and did the install on the units the only thing I had a HVAC guy do with test the lines and pull a Vac on the lines. We didn't have any day's this winter below 0 but we had some in the single digit and had no problem with heat.
Our electric bill has dropped 40% and that's a very conservative number. 2 summers ago I bill was north of $300.00 last summer $180.00 was as high as it got with the mini splits and the house was 10x cooler

Post like this are why I am keen on Mini-splits.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Post like this are why I am keen on Mini-splits.

Gree is kind of new in the US. Not a lot of installers handle it. It has not built much of a reputation good or bad. The price is right !! You have to check the low temp heating specs. Resistance heat will hurt your wallet bad !!

 

[yeldogt]

Gree is kind of new in the US. Not a lot of installers handle it. It has not built much of a reputation good or bad. The price is right !! You have to check the low temp heating specs. Resistance heat will hurt your wallet bad !!

I believe all made in china ....


A garage or bonus room -- is a different situation vs installing many heads in a dwelling. Most people don't want four compressors sitting outside around the house -- with hoses and conduit running all around. Two, tucked behind a garage is normally no problem.

 

[Highbeam]

Wrong.

100% of their efficiency. Not a COP of 1.

Many mini-splits nowadays deliver between 75 and 100% of their rated BTU output at temp as cold as -22F.

By definition, COP of 1 = 100% efficiency.


I must be confused. 100% efficiency *****, that's what straight electric resistance gets me. Every heat pump is more efficient at warmer ambient temperatures. Way over 100% is possible, like 500%.

Are you not comparing delivered energy to input energy to come up with efficiency?

 

[justinjoyal]

I said 100% of THEIR efficiency, meaning if they're rated to put out 12k BTU @ 5F, they'll still put that out at -15 (I made up the numbers).

I guess I wasnt clear.

I guess what I meant is capacity, or output.

French is my primary language, not English. ;-)

 

[theoldwizard1]

I believe all made in china ....

I would very surprised in Mitsubishi or Fujitsu were made in China.

A garage or bonus room -- is a different situation vs installing many heads in a dwelling. Most people don't want four compressors sitting outside around the house -- with hoses and conduit running all around. Two, tucked behind a garage is normally no problem.

TRUE ! Mini-splits are not a good fit for most modern US houses.

 

[boat2230]

Thanks for all the great responses. My biggest problem is I am down to 5k left after my build and just want to make sure I spend wisely I.E. don't come to regret not waiting and saving more to do it right first time. Problem is right can be up front or future cost(efficiency vs. install cost). The new higher sear heat pumps are getting close to the mini splits. I will be using shop more as time goes on. The leftover heat pump Idea appeals to me. The one contractor came back with a 12 grand to do upstairs and down with a two heat pumps set up. I think i need more estimates. I also have an in with the duct work fab shop so I can save if I go that route. The min split guy is saying one large unit downstairs and 4 small heads would be better for balance possible to do 2 but he is getting feed back from his factory rep. and one upstairs.He is doing this for me as a favor plus materials and really needs to hire another man so it will be till he gets some down time before he gives me a firm number. For what I am sure I will save I need to find the patience. Half thinking just put in a hot dog to get thru a couple winters and save up. I am close to wrapping up the build and just want to be done.Trying not to make any stupid choices I will regret financially and use wise.

 

[dsimatt]

I believe all made in china ....


A garage or bonus room -- is a different situation vs installing many heads in a dwelling. Most people don't want four compressors sitting outside around the house -- with hoses and conduit running all around. Two, tucked behind a garage is normally no problem.

I agree the heads and hoses are not the most pleasing to the eye but same time unless you already have forced air, the ducting is going to look and be more of a headache.

The biggest thing I see in favor of the mini splits is that you can go all in or just focus on a section of you house and if you have a couple separate systems if one goes down you can still use the other.

 

[dsimatt]

I would very surprised in Mitsubishi or Fujitsu were made in China.



TRUE ! Mini-splits are not a good fit for most modern US houses.

I'd like to know why you think they are a bad fit in newer houses.

 

[yeldogt]

China -- I was talking about the Gree brand. Many big companies have factories in China.

The big name in min-split compressors (rotary) is Toshiba -- they also make the 5 speed unit for carrier.

I'm using a mini-split for my new build. The kitchen is an addition to a stone building -- placing a mini head in the kitchen and the room under it ... also placing a small head in a loft in the stone building. Using a Mitsubishi unit that can operate up to four heads. The main stone building will have conventional ducted HP. The whole house will also have radiant.

I have seen some very nice installs -- mostly during major renovations -- where people have used mini splits in old victorians w/ radiators. Fujitsu was a leader with the 7-8 head units that required an internal manifold/ splitter -- all running off of one outside unit.

The new build will be my second multi head Mitsubishi hyper heat -- this unit has four line set connection points at the compressor -- each able to run to an individual head. Many types available - but .. the wall units have the most technology built into them.

 

[dsimatt]

I've got radiant heat and my basement is 1/2 finished with 7ft ceilings so trying to run ducting would be a pain to run and deal with down the road.

The funny thing is around here mini splits are looked down on and unless they are a Mitsubishi dealer most places push ducting. I don't have the money to run multi heads like you so I might look into one big unit in the main area and down the road install heads into the bedrooms in we stay here long term.

 

[bzinsky]

I'd like to know why you think they are a bad fit in newer houses.

Before I had any idea about hvac and construction and general, I was getting my hvac system done and was offered mini-splits but declined because I didn't want the unit visible. I think most of the american population feels the same and hvac contractors probably hear the same response over and over.

Now that I've installed and operated several mini-splits, a lot of the modern ones that have full front covers, and hidden digital displays, are really not bad at all. They actually give the living space a hi-tech kind of look.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I'd like to know why you think they are a bad fit in newer houses.

Too many rooms ! Kitchen, dining room, living room, family room, 3 or 4 bedrooms, 2+ bath. The price would be very high to put an air handler in each room. Running the tubing is easier in a new build, but you would have to build chases to run the tubing.

 

[theoldwizard1]

The big name in min-split compressors (rotary) is Toshiba -- they also make the 5 speed unit for carrier.

I don't know is Mitsubishi or Fujitsu makes their own compressors, but I will bet they outsell Carrier mini-splits.

 

[theoldwizard1]

The new build will be my second multi head Mitsubishi Hyper Heat -- this unit has four line set connection points at the compressor -- each able to run to an individual head. Many types available - but .. the wall units have the most technology built into them.

"Top of the line", IMHO.

 

[theoldwizard1]

... most places push ducting.

It is the technology that they and most customers know ! Also, ducted installs have more labor, so the profit margin is higher.