Mitsubishi VS others mini split opinions wanted
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I just installed a Fujitsu 3 head unit over the weekened. It's good down to -15F and was about $1k cheaper than the comparable Mitsubishi.
I almost went with LG, but there are a lot of bad reviews, and LG is notorious for taking forever to get replacement parts.
I almost went with LG, but there are a lot of bad reviews, and LG is notorious for taking forever to get replacement parts.
With multi head -- yes. I don't think any question. The single head units are a moving target -- new ones popping up like 17 year locust. All things being close $$ I would go with the Mitsubishi hyper heat.
Mitsubishi originally came out with the hyper heat floor model -- it was designed to replace a radiator -- or be placed in a similar fashion. That was my first experience .. I have since done a three head unit in my house ..... also using a three head in my new build. They work -- hot air even at 0%.
Back in 2013 I rented a weekend place in the country -- part of the deal was for the owner to install a mini in the loft (converted barn space) -- mostly for AC .. but I told him to put in a heat pump. Fujitsu was the leader 10 years ago -- they were the first to really have a full inverter line in the USA ... his installer was a Fujitsu dealer .. so they did a Fujitsu. It was an impressive unit -- not as quiet (inside unit) as the Mitsubishi. Deeper inside unit. I rented the place for two winters and the Fujitsu never missed a beat. Had it been my money and choice -- Would have bought the Mitsubishi.
I have an early inverter LG art cool HP -- small 9k unit -- in a small one room outbuilding. It works great ... but does not have the same heat capacity as it get cold -- it's fine for the small space. They have newer ones with better low temp output.
It really a question of the load. With that small one room building. The heat output of the LG unit is at 50% around 10 -- but, it still is enough to keep the place warm most of the time. I raillery need to turn on the old resistance heat. I'm sure the newer ones with 75% at 0 would never require resistance?
Mitsubishi originally came out with the hyper heat floor model -- it was designed to replace a radiator -- or be placed in a similar fashion. That was my first experience .. I have since done a three head unit in my house ..... also using a three head in my new build. They work -- hot air even at 0%.
Back in 2013 I rented a weekend place in the country -- part of the deal was for the owner to install a mini in the loft (converted barn space) -- mostly for AC .. but I told him to put in a heat pump. Fujitsu was the leader 10 years ago -- they were the first to really have a full inverter line in the USA ... his installer was a Fujitsu dealer .. so they did a Fujitsu. It was an impressive unit -- not as quiet (inside unit) as the Mitsubishi. Deeper inside unit. I rented the place for two winters and the Fujitsu never missed a beat. Had it been my money and choice -- Would have bought the Mitsubishi.
I have an early inverter LG art cool HP -- small 9k unit -- in a small one room outbuilding. It works great ... but does not have the same heat capacity as it get cold -- it's fine for the small space. They have newer ones with better low temp output.
It really a question of the load. With that small one room building. The heat output of the LG unit is at 50% around 10 -- but, it still is enough to keep the place warm most of the time. I raillery need to turn on the old resistance heat. I'm sure the newer ones with 75% at 0 would never require resistance?
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theoldwizard1
Well-known member
Fujitsu is #1 in some areas of the country.
Not knocking Fujitsu ...
But, by all accounts they slipped on customer service and parts a few years ago. Maybe being the leader they rested while the other guys went to work -- when they woke up they were behind.
They make a fine product ... just not the leader. They used to be able to charge a premium -- now they need to be bit more aggressive.
They also don't make a 2.5T multi -- common need.
BoostAddiction
Well-known member
I have an LG Art Cool 24K (after a lightning storm killed my Daikin) and it's cooled and heated the garage perfectly now for several years.
It's probably not as efficient as the new models, but does a good job, FWIW.
I wouldn't be too concerned about service, as these are so inexpensive that when any major part fails, it's usually cheaper just to upgrade with a completely new unit with better tech.
It's probably not as efficient as the new models, but does a good job, FWIW.
I wouldn't be too concerned about service, as these are so inexpensive that when any major part fails, it's usually cheaper just to upgrade with a completely new unit with better tech.
I'm hedging my bet that Mitsubishi is the best and worth the extra money because I'm getting one installed next week in my house, could have gone with carrier a good bit cheaper but my gut has kept me with Mitsubishi. The only question I have left is if its worth the extra $400 to get the hyper heat over the standard heat one.
It's all a question of need. What's the heat load of the building at a given temp -- and what's the output of the unit at that temp.
Some units are not designed to run in very cold temps -- others can but the output drops too low ... the hypers can without the output dropping to a point where they can not be used as primary heat.
Mitsubishi better inside head is smaller than most and has a split output w/ sensor.
There's really no need as its main purpose is in spring and fall to heat the living area instead of firing up and whole heater system and the living room cools the fastest so it would provide more even warmth there, the one plus with the hyper is back up heat source if the main heat goes out since it usually won't happen on a warm night.
There is a few different brands supported around here but mini's are still new tech to people so I chose the brand that had a dealer that the majority of their ac installs are mini's while others are more of a after thought.
I went with the hyper heat in my previous house. An 18k unit. it worked great, and it heated my first floor until the temp dropped into the teens. At that point it still worked fine, but the living room, which was on the other side a wall, was a lot cooler, so I let the oil boiler take over.
The last few projects I have done with radiant floors I also installed HP vs straight AC for this reason. Today is a perfect example -- My HP's are running to take the chill off the house. I only need heat for 1/2 hr.
I did use the mini to heat my new addition the previous winter as the radiant in that area was not yet connected. Mini's really excel in well insulated houses - they modulate and can provide continuous hot or cold air .. never shutting off.
And I agree with the installer -- it's normally best to go with the best installer. I see many bad mini split installs.
finn
Well-known member
We installed the standard Mitsubishi on recommendation of the dealer / installer.
It works great in the spring and fall when there are large daily temperature swings. We primarily run the living room head in the evening, or overnight in the bedroom
Our winters are too cold and electric rates are too high to make use of a mini split as a primary heat source in the winter. The radiant floor takes over in November.
It works great in the spring and fall when there are large daily temperature swings. We primarily run the living room head in the evening, or overnight in the bedroom
Our winters are too cold and electric rates are too high to make use of a mini split as a primary heat source in the winter. The radiant floor takes over in November.
I ended up ordering the hype heat this morning, next Friday they will install the unit so hopefully get a few chilly days to test it out.
The hyper heat is probably overkill for what we will use it for but knowing there is now a secondary heat source to limp thru if the boiler goes down is reassuring. I was going to just go straight AC but then 3/4s of the year the investment is just sitting there so this way I get more use from it.
Also has anyone looked at the water to air units http://www.pmengineer.com/articles/92581-cold-climate-air-to-water-heat-pumps
Back when I had to purchase and install 20 systems, I was doing extreme due diligence on all the brands. Spent many many hours going over cold weather heating performance.
For DC inverter models, there was pretty much two tiers of performance. They all had your cheaper inverter systems around 18-21 seer, and then the higher end systems at 26-28 seer. There must be two types of hardware in these systems that creates the gap. Since they are all rated pretty similar.
Pretty much every single 19-23 seer model was rated to produce heat down to 5 degrees F. I learned they will produce heat lower than that and they will not just shut down and produce nothing like an older non-inverter model (which will produce pretty much no heat by the time you get to 15-20 degrees), but they start to significantly drop in efficiency and output down below 10-15 degrees. This is a problem in a cold region if your heat pump is your only source of heat. All it takes is 1 day in single digits, and when you need most btu's your heat pump supplies the least btu's. While I couldn't find the data, I talked to multiple sources that said although they are only rated to 5, they will still produce heat lower than that on a sliding scale, there really isn't a set it stone cut off point like the older models.
Now with the 26-28 seer models, ie LG art cool premier, hyper heat, fujitsu 9flrs (forget exact model number something like that), they all had heating capability down to negative 20-30 degrees F, they also still kept up their efficiency and output down to negative 10-15F.
Another interesting note is that only the 9 and 12k single head units perform like this. They are without a doubt the best performers you can buy. Not sure why, but that's how it is with all the manufacturers.
The mitsu hyper heat and the fujitsu were the leaders in cold weather performance, and the most expensive. The LG was right behind and the cheapest (well cheapest of well known brands)
I went with 9k btu top tier LG units for NJ climate. I cannot recommend them. Infact I can only recommend staying far far away. Their heating, cooling, and efficiency performance is absolutely fantastic. I had 2 out of 20 just completely fail on me for no reason 1 year after install. Followed multiple repair and diagnosis guides, bought a diagnostic device, hired multiple repair people, replaced multiple parts, nothing. You would not believe the hassle it was to tried to get these warrantied and repaired. Nobody knows how to fix the LG's, and the company is just completely worthless trying to get parts or new units for warranty. It was just absurd the run around I was getting. I even went to the LG corporate training and had some contacts at their NJ headquarters. Nothing. I now have 2 dead units sitting in my office just for parts. Between the two failed units, parts and labor, I pretty much lost $6k. Do not buy LG mini splits.
Definitely go with Mistu Hyper heat or Fujitsu, not only are they the best performers, they are the most commonly installed brands and if you ever have a problem it will be a lot easier to find help and parts.
For DC inverter models, there was pretty much two tiers of performance. They all had your cheaper inverter systems around 18-21 seer, and then the higher end systems at 26-28 seer. There must be two types of hardware in these systems that creates the gap. Since they are all rated pretty similar.
Pretty much every single 19-23 seer model was rated to produce heat down to 5 degrees F. I learned they will produce heat lower than that and they will not just shut down and produce nothing like an older non-inverter model (which will produce pretty much no heat by the time you get to 15-20 degrees), but they start to significantly drop in efficiency and output down below 10-15 degrees. This is a problem in a cold region if your heat pump is your only source of heat. All it takes is 1 day in single digits, and when you need most btu's your heat pump supplies the least btu's. While I couldn't find the data, I talked to multiple sources that said although they are only rated to 5, they will still produce heat lower than that on a sliding scale, there really isn't a set it stone cut off point like the older models.
Now with the 26-28 seer models, ie LG art cool premier, hyper heat, fujitsu 9flrs (forget exact model number something like that), they all had heating capability down to negative 20-30 degrees F, they also still kept up their efficiency and output down to negative 10-15F.
Another interesting note is that only the 9 and 12k single head units perform like this. They are without a doubt the best performers you can buy. Not sure why, but that's how it is with all the manufacturers.
The mitsu hyper heat and the fujitsu were the leaders in cold weather performance, and the most expensive. The LG was right behind and the cheapest (well cheapest of well known brands)
I went with 9k btu top tier LG units for NJ climate. I cannot recommend them. Infact I can only recommend staying far far away. Their heating, cooling, and efficiency performance is absolutely fantastic. I had 2 out of 20 just completely fail on me for no reason 1 year after install. Followed multiple repair and diagnosis guides, bought a diagnostic device, hired multiple repair people, replaced multiple parts, nothing. You would not believe the hassle it was to tried to get these warrantied and repaired. Nobody knows how to fix the LG's, and the company is just completely worthless trying to get parts or new units for warranty. It was just absurd the run around I was getting. I even went to the LG corporate training and had some contacts at their NJ headquarters. Nothing. I now have 2 dead units sitting in my office just for parts. Between the two failed units, parts and labor, I pretty much lost $6k. Do not buy LG mini splits.
Definitely go with Mistu Hyper heat or Fujitsu, not only are they the best performers, they are the most commonly installed brands and if you ever have a problem it will be a lot easier to find help and parts.
Mitsubishi has been in the States since the late 70's early 80's. Fujitsu came into the market in the late 90's. Mistu is number one. Fujitsu two. Fujitsu easily matches performance of Mitsu, but doesn't do the big advertising/marketing and hence is able to sell a bit less expensively. I represented Fuitsu for 13 years in New England. They had 5 systems when we started and it was a great experience watching it grow and introducing their inverter units. Over the past few decades I have seen myriad mini-splits lines come and go. Sanyo owned the market years ago, but got rid of their reps, and drastically curtailed service and Mitsu went by them like a freight train passing a tramp. From #1 to gone in 6 years. LG & Samsung, in my experience, are obviously big well known brands, but they do not support the products as well as Fujitsu and Mitsu, again in my experience. Bzinsky's experience is not uncommon. Gree is the largest manuf in the world and are well into the market today. It looks like a good line. Having been away from the day to day part of the market I am not aware of their structure. I know they have an exclusive distribution deal with Watsco. As far as Fujitsu's support, I recently had a question on my daughters system and called the 800 number. After a few minutes the call got dropped. I sent them an email informing them of that. They responded that day telling me they have a new system and were working things out. They thanked me for informing them, as I had located a bug that they were not aware of. Tech Service is always a moving target and not easy. The best companies continue to invest to protect their customers and their business. I'm biased, but I'll always buy Fujitsu based upon the quality of the product, value, performance and the support consistently offered over the years!
Interesting, but the bigger benefit to most people is air conditioning, which you can't do with air to water.
The 5 degree rating is the lowest temp that they can still produce their rated heat output. As you said, they still produce heat lower than that, but the amount of heat drops off.
That seems to be the pretty common feel on LG. I was very close to going with a 3 Head Gallery series, but the reliability scared me off.
That makes me feel good about the Fujitsu I just installed
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
That is a great combination, but EXPENSIVE !
Some day, Mitsubishi will start offering heat exchangers to heat your radiant floor as an add-on to their line of mini splits in the US like they do in New Zealand and Australia.
For the sake of others who might be reading this, I have to point out this is mostly not true.
Here is an example of a common inverter heat pump rated down to 5F
http://17uo7e27w1attiybs22of10v.wpe...ds/2015/01/Rio-Submittal-RIO09HP230V1B-V0.pdf
As you can see, heat output even at 17F drops down to a max of 7,401 btu's. When you get down to 5F, you are at the minimum heat output in the heating capacity range, which is only 3,800 btu's.
There are exceptions to this, such as the fujitsu 12rls, which is rated down to 5F, and here you can see it amazingly produced 100% of rated capacity down to 7F, and continued performing well below 0.
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy11osti/52175.pdf
That is indeed the document I read when I determined that mitsu and fujitsu make some damn fine mini-splits.
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Thanks for the clarification. I really mainly only researched Mitsu and Fujitsu, and just assumed everyone rated them that way!
That's why I went with Mitsubishi, never even thought of fujistu and they actually have a dealer in town but their lack of advertising cost them a possible sale.
There are more dealers installing mini's of a bunch of brands but the dealer I chose has done Mistu pretty much from the beginning and the guy answered every question I asked without pause so he knows his stuff.
justinjoyal
Well-known member
My opinion:
Mitsubishis are great units.
They are overpriced (at least here in Quebec).
Service is important so don't purchase a brand you cant easily get fixed if something happens.
Many units out there are on par or better than mitsubishi hyperheats.
Mitsubishis are great units.
They are overpriced (at least here in Quebec).
Service is important so don't purchase a brand you cant easily get fixed if something happens.
Many units out there are on par or better than mitsubishi hyperheats.
Performance wise there really isn't
Granted this was 2 years ago that I did all this research, but unless somebody came out with something amazing since then, there were infact no other units you could call "better" than the hyperheats. I looked at pretty much every single unit that is readily available to the US consumer.
There were units that were close in performance, certainly not "better"
Fujitsu is a close 2nd in performance, seemed to have more contractors familiar with them, and was a little cheaper. After you factor in all the variables, they were basically tied for being the best options.
Kicking myself for deciding on the LG's for the cost.
justinjoyal
Well-known member
People make it sound like Mitsubishi owns the formula to some kind of secret process...
I have no emotional investment or personal opinion in saying the hyperheat was the best performer. Calling it the best is strictly from a numerical data standpoint. It can literally be proven. (Unless that has changed recently and there are new products I'm not aware of)
At any given time there are leaders in any industry.
Mitsubishi set out to go a particular way with the Hyper-heat line. We had friends that did a multi head Fujitsu a few years back .. they did 7 heads with internal manifolds .. and added an 8th. If I was doing that type of system -- Fujitsu would be the one to compare. Mitsubishi makes that type but they really went with the 3/4 multi head with home runs back to the compressor.
It's somewhat less important with the single head units -- it's question of performance need first .. then cost and reliability.
justinjoyal
Well-known member
Well, my point is there are units out there with better (cold weather) output, similar efficiency, some more gadgets (that's not really important), similar sound levels, CFMs, etc, better looks, better warranty and better price.
But I'll say it again, Mr Slims are great units nonetheless.
fastjohnny
Well-known member
Mitsu hyper heat was top when I bought my first ones 2-3 yrs ago. Gree now has units which on paper are on par to the hyper heat, maintaining nearly 100% heat production to 5 degrees, and still producing heat down to -20F. Have one to install to compare, but haven't gotten around to do it yet.
What ones do you find the best looking ?
Fujitsu was nice because they were not as wide when that's important for a tight placement -- but, they protrude from the wall. Did an art cool .. and I can't say it's any less noticeable vs the newest Mitsubishi that I did a while back
IMO the units with square looks fit in better vs the units that curve -- some now come in black and silver. I may try the black in one room with stone walls
eddieK
Well-known member
I've been installing mini splits for the last 20 years...
I agree that Mitsubishi is high quality but prefer the value of Fujitsu. Basing this on cost, problem calls and support.
justinjoyal
Well-known member
I installed many of those and they work great.
As a matter of fact, I heat my 1250 sq ft main floor all winter long with my single 12kbtu Gree heat pump, with outside temps lower than -22F. (Quebec climate)
All of that while some neighbors with smaller homes have their Hyperheat turned off. ;-)
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
I would really like to hear some feedback on that Gree system, especially aft 4 or 5 years !
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
Very nice to get this kind of feedback from a pro !
lagarde-gl
Member
I had a 4-head Daikin system installed in my old log cabin about five years ago. It has run like a champ ever since - no problems at all.
d_douce36
Member
Any further advancement on this topic? Im looking at getting a unit for my garage. Im looking for something that can heat effectively down in the -30 range. Im seeing units from that can heat down in this range. It appears that none do it with multiple heads? why is this? Im looking for a 2 head solution
Which unit are you looking at that says the operating range goes to -30? I think even with the hyperheat it is going to NOT perform well at -30. Look at this graph, they don't even graph it.
It's a garage, I would look at gas heater such as the reznor heaters
Edit: found an spec of operating range for hyper heat (15k model)
lowest Heating range -13º F (-25º C) DB**
** System cuts out at -18º F (-28º C) to avoid thermistor error and automatically restarts at -14º F (-26º C)
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Dkramer
Well-known member
Some, if not all multi head units don't run the heads at full capacity. On some models, like Daikin, you can set a priority head that will run near full capacity for that head. I have a Daikin 4 head in my house. It is not very well insulated in the attic, something that will be addressed soon, and last winter when we hit 7 degrees for a few days, it did not have any trouble heating the house. However, I doubt that any unit will be able to properly heat a normal house at -30.
terabitdan
Well-known member
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I just had a Carrier mini split installed in my garage conversion and family room. Carrier sells 3 lines, only one is really low ambient capable. We went with the 24k unit specifically for heating capacity. It's rated down to -22 at 58% of rated capacity.
I wanted the Mitsubishi, but it was $3k more, for the 18k unit. Many more features in the heads and I think the Mitsubishi is more efficient, better quality, etc. it's rated quieter when running at 100% but we could never pay back the up front difference.
Our Mitsubishi sales person couldn't believe the Carrier was rated similarly to the hyper heat, so I sent him the specs and asked him to show me if I was wrong, never heard back from him.
From all the specs I read the 20-24k units generated a higher percentage of rated in low ambient conditions than the smaller units. In my case I can add an additional head, which may come in handy sometime.
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I wanted the Mitsubishi, but it was $3k more, for the 18k unit. Many more features in the heads and I think the Mitsubishi is more efficient, better quality, etc. it's rated quieter when running at 100% but we could never pay back the up front difference.
Our Mitsubishi sales person couldn't believe the Carrier was rated similarly to the hyper heat, so I sent him the specs and asked him to show me if I was wrong, never heard back from him.
From all the specs I read the 20-24k units generated a higher percentage of rated in low ambient conditions than the smaller units. In my case I can add an additional head, which may come in handy sometime.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk