Mixing 20a breaker with 14/2...just musing.

[gaalcom]

Had a heavy-up (pecker to box) completed on this home about 12 years ago. I'm prepping to sell and this entails a few upgrades/refreshes to the home, one of which is the kitchen. In investigation I see the countertop outlets circuit (two original outlets) are 15a receptacles while the breaker is 20a. I know current code requires 20a outlets so looked a little closer and find them being fed by 14/2.

Now, just curious -- What would be the likely response from the inevitable home inspection of this mostly original early 60's home? Would they say all receptacles need to be upgraded to GFCI 20a (or breaker equivalent) along with a 12/2 wiring upgrade or do they grandfather in the 15a non-GFCI receptacles but require the breaker be downgraded to comply with 14/2?

The above is just a query of interest. As I'll pretty much be performing a complete kitchen remodel it's most likely they'll treat it as such and require current code. I fully intend to upgrade to 12/2 and install a GFCI (or AFCI/GFCI) breaker or possibly just GFCI the first outlet in series.

Lastly, would I be correct in understand AFCI would provide greater benefit when paired with older sketch wiring and if I were to replace the entire circuit GFCI would be fully sufficient?

Home is in Maryland if that makes a difference in regional code.

As an aside -- I'm actually surprised this house hasn't bee reduced to ash by now. I'm in the middle of the kitchen remodel (just removed the 60's above cabinet soffits, relocated fridge and pulled up the old lino squares) and upon taking down the old main ceiling globe light it was shocking, almost literally. Pulling the plate down from the ceiling uncovered a pair of 14/3 NM (neutral and hots) that were 100% bare for 4"-5" with the insulation having been baked right off of them. I guess 60+ years along with likely over-wattage bulbs should have spelled disaster.

 

[Model A Fan]

I don't know your particular area's requirements, but if a homeowner does their own wiring and pulls their own permits in WA State, there is a clause somewhere that states you're not supposed to sell within the next few years (to prevent flipping houses and shoddy/sketchy wiring work is my guess). Your jurisdiction may have different requirements/clauses, but that's what mine seems to mean/say.

If I were you, I'd just wire it and see if anything is said (using proper 12/2 and 20A breakers).

 

[Bert_]

20 amp receptacles are not and have never been required in a kitchen.

You are required to have two 20 amp circuit, but 15 amp receptacles are acceptable.

I'd put in a 15 amp breaker, new receptacles if necessary, and call it a day.

 

[djbmw]

20 amp receptacles are not and have never been required in a kitchen.

You are required to have two 20 amp circuit, but 15 amp receptacles are acceptable.

I'd put in a 15 amp breaker, new receptacles if necessary, and call it a day.

This is very true - though many home inspectors dont know the difference between a circuit and a receptacle... and you'll likely have to point out that the home inspector that they hired is useless. Of course, that has now built doubt in the buyers mind and they back out of the deal...

All that to say, kitchens need two 20-amp circuits (breaker and wiring), but the final recepticals can be 15-amp. The idea is that 20 amp circuit is feeding several receptacles that likely have high draw kitchen appliances plugged into each receptacle.

 

[sparky 1971]

many home inspectors dont know the difference between a circuit and a receptacle

While that is probably true, I have never, ever, been on a service call where a home inspector called out 15 amp receptacles on a 20 amp circuit but anything is possible. Double tapped breakers, gas line bonding, ungrounded three prong receptacles, open junction boxes, GFCI's, Federal Pacific and Zinsco panels are about all they know to look for. Once upon a time, I was doing a ton of home inspection work and I would walk past more code violations than I ever fixed. I'd mention it to the customer, but almost every time, the answer would be "if it's not on the list, leave it alone".

 

[yatg]

pulled up the old lino squares)

you mean the 60's era asbestos tile?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Had a heavy-up (pecker to box) completed on this home about 12 years ago. I'm prepping to sell and this entails a few upgrades/refreshes to the home, one of which is the kitchen. In investigation I see the countertop outlets circuit (two original outlets) are 15a receptacles while the breaker is 20a. I know current code requires 20a outlets so looked a little closer and find them being fed by 14/2.

unless this is a local written amendment, it is not correct. or perhaps you misunderstand the NEC requirement which is 20a CIRCUITS but the receptacles can be duplex 15a

of course since the wire is #14, you cant have a 20a circuit. The breaker should be changed to 15a for now until you remodel and put in #12 NM-b.... then you can put the 20a breaker back

Now, just curious -- What would be the likely response from the inevitable home inspection of this mostly original early 60's home?
Would they say all receptacles need to be upgraded to GFCI 20a (or breaker equivalent) along with a 12/2 wiring upgrade or do they grandfather in the 15a non-GFCI receptacles but require the breaker be downgraded to comply with 14/2?

well the inspector probably wont catch the #14 wire.... they dont typically open up panels and junction boxes to check for correct wire gauge.... and code doesnt require 20a receptacles but GFCI protection is required if within 6' of a sink.

as far as grandfathering goes, i doubt GFCIs were required in the kitchen in the 60s but it wouldnt hurt to add them in....

The above is just a query of interest. As I'll pretty much be performing a complete kitchen remodel it's most likely they'll treat it as such and require current code. I fully intend to upgrade to 12/2 and install a GFCI (or AFCI/GFCI) breaker or possibly just GFCI the first outlet in series.

a buyer's home inspector cant require anything. all they can do is make recommendations. and AHJs cant require you to upgrade grandfathered infrastructure.... but since you will be updating/remodeling the kitchen, just in the #12 and a GFCI receptacle or breaker and be done with it....

 

[jtbinvalrico]

Just passing by and I heard “heavy-up (pecker to box)”……What is that?

 

[Norcal]

linoleum is linseed oil based, not asbestos, very old product.

 

[gaalcom]

Much appreciate the replies. Provides some food-for-thought if I decide to modify my plans.

What I did just now is reconfirm I will never be adept at mudding! I've done quite a bit over the years and, for me, it's not like riding a bike. I sure do lose proficiency. Seems it only comes back to me just about when the project if finished. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!

 

[gaalcom]

If I may impose again -- I do see now where it's just the circuit and not the outlets that are to be 20a. This leads me to ask for just a bit more clarification as to remodel requirements. Since I'm performing this work (and it may be the same if contracted) what is consensus as to grandfathering (i.e. "AHJs cant require you to upgrade grandfathered infrastructure") Does evidence of a recent remodel dictate new code be applied? I just want to nip in the bud any possible closing hiccup to make sale as turn-key as possible. Really not looking forward to running the 12/2 but will if it make life simpler. Popping in a 15a breaker and heading the circuit with a GFCI outlet would be convenient.

 

[Cruzan80]

Edit: To be clear, I am not an electrician. I have done extensive remodels in a variety of homes of different ages (oldest was 1940).

My understanding:

New runs have to be to current code cycle (wherever you are).

Fixing old mistakes generally are assumed to NOT trigger a code update. In this situation, I could see installing the correct breaker as "fixing an old mistake".

HOWEVER...
Updating parts of the circuit is where it gets fuzzy. So swapping in a GFCI could qualify. This is one where the AHJ has the final call, especially if permits are pulled.

If it were me:
If the cabinets/bones of the kitchen were not being replaced, I would add the GFCI, and replace the breaker with an approprate size. Make it safe for the user. If it is already being gutted, replace with 20A breaker and correct wiring.

As mentioned up-thread, the buyer can't "require" anything, and neither can the home inspector. They can ask for, suggest, etc. The only exception I know of is that certain loans require current code compliance in certain areas (for example, VA loans can require a railing for stairs, etc). Not that you have to sell to them, but the loan requires things to allow it to close.

 

[sparky 1971]

If I may impose again -- I do see now where it's just the circuit and not the outlets that are to be 20a. This leads me to ask for just a bit more clarification as to remodel requirements. Since I'm performing this work (and it may be the same if contracted) what is consensus as to grandfathering (i.e. "AHJs cant require you to upgrade grandfathered infrastructure") Does evidence of a recent remodel dictate new code be applied? I just want to nip in the bud any possible closing hiccup to make sale as turn-key as possible. Really not looking forward to running the 12/2 but will if it make life simpler. Popping in a 15a breaker and heading the circuit with a GFCI outlet would be convenient.

Nobody is going to check for the two 20 amp small appliance circuits as far as a home inspector goes, remodeled or not. I can't speak for everywhere, but a kitchen remodel wouldn't necessarily require the electric to be brought up to code anyway. If the walls were opened up, it would have to be brought up to the current code, but new cabinets, floors, and a coat of paint while leaving the drywall alone wouldn't require anything.

 

[mike93lx]

In MA, your most recent building permit does trigger certain requirements for smoke detectors. No idea if other states do similar.

 

[908Jim]

Had a heavy-up (pecker to box) completed on this home about 12 years ago. I'm prepping to sell and this entails a few upgrades/refreshes to the home, one of which is the kitchen. In investigation I see the countertop outlets circuit (two original outlets) are 15a receptacles while the breaker is 20a. I know current code requires 20a outlets so looked a little closer and find them being fed by 14/2.

Now, just curious -- What would be the likely response from the inevitable home inspection of this mostly original early 60's home? Would they say all receptacles need to be upgraded to GFCI 20a (or breaker equivalent) along with a 12/2 wiring upgrade or do they grandfather in the 15a non-GFCI receptacles but require the breaker be downgraded to comply with 14/2?

I'm not a licensed electrician.... but my licensed electrician is! I had the same question regarding 15 amp outlets on 20 amp circuits and, in short, he said there's nothing wrong with 15 amp receptacles on 20 amp circuits as long as there are a minimum of 2 outlets on that circuit and a duplex outlet counts as two outlets. 15 amp receptacles are also rated for 20 amp feed through, as common practice around here in new builds and reno work tends to be running 12/2 for outlets and 14/2 for lighting circuits.

Here's the actual code:
https://up.codes/viewer/nfpa/nfpa-70-2023/chapter/2/wiring-and-protection#210.20_(D)

With that said, I would absolutely install a GFCI upstream for kitchen outlets, regardless of whether you're grandfathered in or not. This is more just common sense safety around water.

 

[Innovate1]

I'm not a licensed electrician.... but my licensed electrician is! I had the same question regarding 15 amp outlets on 20 amp circuits and, in short, he said there's nothing wrong with 15 amp receptacles on 20 amp circuits as long as there are a minimum of 2 outlets on that circuit and a duplex outlet counts as two outlets. 15 amp receptacles are also rated for 20 amp feed through, as common practice around here in new builds and reno work tends to be running 12/2 for outlets and 14/2 for lighting circuits.

Here's the actual code:
https://up.codes/viewer/nfpa/nfpa-70-2023/chapter/2/wiring-and-protection#210.20_(D)

With that said, I would absolutely install a GFCI upstream for kitchen outlets, regardless of whether you're grandfathered in or not. This is more just common sense safety around water.

In the code they aren't duplex outlets. They are duplex receptacles. That is likely part of the confusion. The code considers any load an outlet but what people commonly call outlets are called receptacles in the code. I built about 20 years ago but required more than two circuits for the kitchen counter receptacles. IIRC it was 2 dual receptacles per circuit limit and receptacles every 6 feet on counters. We had counters on 3 sides so lots of counter space. Not sure if that was national code or local requirement but the reasoning was that there are lots of large plug in loads in kitchens.

For the OP I would do 15A breaker if keeping the 14 wire and also add GFCIs. If the walls are open an upgrade to #12 would be good with 20A breaker. Two circuits would be good but not required.

No idea what "heavy-up (pecker to box)" means but sort of sounds like slang from an old *****...

 

[alfredeneuman]

linoleum is linseed oil based, not asbestos, very old product.

I think the asbestos was in the adhesive used rather than the tile.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I think the asbestos was in the adhesive used rather than the tile.

correct

 

[Cruzan80]

can't speak for everywhere, but a kitchen remodel wouldn't necessarily require the electric to be brought up to code anyway.

Just to clarify (for my own verification), this is an AHJ call, correct? And therefore could be regionally dependant, as far as how deep you go before it triggers? If so, can you remind me what rough area of the country you are in that the above level of remodel applies to?

Again, this is assuming full cooperation with AHJ, permits, inspections, etc.

Not being a smart-alec, trying to double check my knowledge. And if region dependant, then listing regions makes sense.

 

[whateg01]

linoleum is linseed oil based, not asbestos, very old product.

I never wondered where the name linoleum came from, but I'm happy I now know!

 

[gaalcom]

Again, thanks for the great replies! Now I've got to switch out this white collar and keyboard for the comfort zone of blue collar and tool belt. ;-)

 

[sparky 1971]

Just to clarify (for my own verification), this is an AHJ call, correct? And therefore could be regionally dependant, as far as how deep you go before it triggers? If so, can you remind me what rough area of the country you are in that the above level of remodel applies to?

Correct, but I can't imagine a requirement not in place for a remodel where the walls are stripped to the bare studs. And if circuits are added due to rearranging, then a permit should be pulled according to any AHJ regardless of the wall covering.

Again, this is assuming full cooperation with AHJ, permits, inspections, etc.

Yes, but depending on the extent of the remodel, permit's may not be required and often aren't pulled even when supposed to. I'm sure it's possible to require a permit for new cabinets and flooring only but I've never seen or heard of it.

Not being a smart-alec, trying to double check my knowledge. And if region dependant, then listing regions makes sense.

 

[dcg9381]

Whatever you do, don't use "dual" AFI/GFI breakers, they've been nothing but problems for me.

If I needed more power, I'd do separate circuits in the kitchen. If AFI is required, AFI breaker circuit then the first outlet gets GFCI in an "obvious place".

If you're doing 12/2, might as well go 20A. If I had 14/2, I'd do 15A.

I definitely want two independent circuits in a medium to large kitchen. And that doesn't count a "dedicated" microwave AND refrigerator circuit.

 

[jtbinvalrico]

No idea what "heavy-up (pecker to box)" means but sort of sounds like slang from an old *****...

I wondered the same thing…..Google had the answer: A "heavy up" in electrical refers to an upgrade to a home’s electrical service panel to increase its amperage capacity, typically from 100 amps to 200 amps.

A search for “pecker to box” yielded results about motors and a debate over whether or not electricians should use “pecker head” in the workplace….lol.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I know current code requires 20a outlets so looked a little closer and find them being fed by 14/2.

I am not a "code lawyer" !

I have never heard of a local authority forcing you to re-wiring existing 120V outlets. You may be required to install 15A GFCI in "wet locations".

For older house with 2 wire (no ground) outlets, a GFCI is a good alternative.

 

[gaalcom]

Just to fill in the last couple -- Yeah I've come to the conclusion AF is somewhere I really don't need to go, properly configured GF is sufficient.

And to clarify my wording for the mikey takers out there ;-) -- Correct, heavy-up would be an amp upgrade to the electrical service. "Pecker to box" would better be described as weatherhead, SE cable (entrance) and panel.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Whatever you do, don't use "dual" AFI/GFI breakers, they've been nothing but problems for me.

If I needed more power, I'd do separate circuits in the kitchen. If AFI is required, AFI breaker circuit then the first outlet gets GFCI in an "obvious place".

If you're doing 12/2, might as well go 20A. If I had 14/2, I'd do 15A.

I definitely want two independent circuits in a medium to large kitchen. And that doesn't count a "dedicated" microwave AND refrigerator circuit.

yeah i cant stand it when the refer goes on the small appliances circuits... it just takes away capacity on the circuit and subjects the fridge to voltage sag when you startup a large appliance...

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Just to fill in the last couple -- Yeah I've come to the conclusion AF is somewhere I really don't need to go, properly configured GF is sufficient.

And to clarify my wording for the mikey takers out there ;-) -- Correct, heavy-up would be an amp upgrade to the electrical service. "Pecker to box" would better be described as weatherhead, SE cable (entrance) and panel.

so the service riser...

 

[u2slow]

This sounds like the same old song about old work being legit (or not.)

If #14 wire circuits were legit in kitchens when the house was built, then a 15A breaker is required.

If a documented electrical renovation occured in the kitchen since then (i.e. an electrical permit), then the affected circuits would need to be legit for the Code in force at that time. Unaffected circuits remain (legitimately) as-original.

My own preference is to leave existing circuits alone and add new.