Moen Shower Transfer vavle problem

[dcg9381]

Amateur plumber here. Very amateur.
Finishing a new shower. This shower has a Moen posi-temp mixing valve that connects to a Moen M-Core U231 transfer valve and 2 shower heads.

I haven't done this before, but it doesn't seem like rocket science.

Looks like this:

Shower 1
^
I
I
Trans_Valve-----> Shower 2
I
I
MIX_VALVE

Problem is, after installation, I can only get flow to 1 shower head. I've read the manual about 20 times on the mixing valve, pulled the non-functional shower head, pulled the transfer valve cartridge, blew out shower 2 to transfer valve. Confirmed the routing of the Pex.


The *only* thing I can think of is that my plumber removed the pressure flow restrictor on Shower 1. Even then, I'd expect "some" flow from Shower 2. Removing the head from shower 2, no water.

Anyone got any theories?
I've also tried removing the limiting clip (which allows 3 head operation)

Manual

 

[spunger1]

I had the same issue with a delta setup. We have 2 shower heads as well (either one or the other on or both on at once). I’m not sure if our contractor hooked it up wrong but I had to order a 6 way valve (so my diverted handle now goes to 6 different preset clicks) and works fine. Was a little odd but fixed the problem.

Does moen offer another cartridge for the diverter part?

If not are the right lines hooked up correct to the mixing valve?

 

[Sinatra]

That valve pictured is installed upside down. (note the outlet numbers embossed on the face) Not sure if it matters or not. You may need to pull the diverter out and rotate it 180 degrees.

 

[dcg9381]

That valve pictured is installed upside down. (note the outlet numbers embossed on the face) Not sure if it matters or not. You may need to pull the diverter out and rotate it 180 degrees.

@#$@#. I see it. Darn dog ears can go either way... That's it for sure. Gonna be a #$#$ to fix. Thank you.

 

[TRWham]

You might be able to swap to a 361 core and get it to work without flipping the valve body. We have just started using M Core after installing thousands of Moentrols and I am not quite up to speed on all the nuances.

Moen has pretty good phone support. Call the 800 number and get to the pro support people. They might be able to help.

 

[dcg9381]

You might be able to swap to a 361 core and get it to work without flipping the valve body. We have just started using M Core after installing thousands of Moentrols and I am not quite up to speed on all the nuances.

Moen has pretty good phone support. Call the 800 number and get to the pro support people. They might be able to help.

It looks to me like the 361 is a transfer valve (on/off) not a diverter valve (shared function). I have an email in to Moen support detailing my screw-up.

I'm guessing that I don't have to remove the valve, but simply need to swap the upper and lower lines, which result in a "3 head" configuration with the #2 head capped.

Two of these I can get to via the drywall behind them. The 3rd is in an exterior wall and I'll have to cut tile.

Moen makes "retrofit plates" for all of their valves. They call them Escutcheon.. Well, except for the M-core (it appears). If they have that plate, I can go in via the tile without having to replace green board, backer board, and tile...

 

[flat350]

The *only* thing I can think of is that my plumber removed the pressure flow restrictor on Shower 1. Even then, I'd expect "some" flow from Shower 2. Removing the head from shower 2, no water.

You mention " my plumber " above, have him come back an fix it. If I was going to go into the wall to fix it I'd flip the entire valve and do it the way it is intended to be installed with port #1 and #2 feeding the fixtures and #3 capped.

 

[flat350]

It looks to me like the 361 is a transfer valve (on/off) not a diverter valve (shared function). I have an email in to Moen support detailing my screw-up.

I'm guessing that I don't have to remove the valve, but simply need to swap the upper and lower lines, which result in a "3 head" configuration with the #2 head capped.

Two of these I can get to via the drywall behind them. The 3rd is in an exterior wall and I'll have to cut tile.

Moen makes "retrofit plates" for all of their valves. They call them Escutcheon.. Well, except for the M-core (it appears). If they have that plate, I can go in via the tile without having to replace green board, backer board, and tile...

https://www.moen.com/shared/docs/instruction-sheets/ins10941.pdf

Are you trying to run 2 fixtures at once or each fixture by itself ?

 

[TRWham]

It looks to me like the 361 is a transfer valve (on/off) not a diverter valve (shared function). I have an email in to Moen support detailing my screw-up...

No, the 361 is a transfer valve that allows more shared functions than the 231, thus my guess you could find an output combination that will work.

 

[dcg9381]

https://www.moen.com/shared/docs/instruction-sheets/ins10941.pdf

Are you trying to run 2 fixtures at once or each fixture by itself ?

I'm trying to run 2 fixtures at the same time, but it looks like the 2-series valves are "independent" function only:

"The M-CORE Transfer Valve can control up to 3 showering devices independently or shared (U231 Independent and U361 Shared Valve Options"

So maybe a 361 cartridge will solve this issue.. Let me give that a shot.

 

[TRWham]

The 231 is 2 independent/3 shared, while the 361 is 3 independent/6 shared- thus the nomenclature. The 1 is the input. The 361 can be configured as 231.

 

[dcg9381]

The 231 is 2 independent/3 shared, while the 361 is 3 independent/6 shared- thus the nomenclature. The 1 is the input. The 361 can be configured as 231.

Thanks, but I'm not following you.
The 361 valve has 4 ports. How do we get 3 independent / 6 shared out of 4 ports?


It's hard to tell - and Moen can't tell me if an "upside down" 231 valve with a 361 cartridge (limiter removed) will flow water to port 2 or 3. I suspect that's the case, but going to have to wait until May as these cartridges are backordered. I could buy a 361 valve and pull the cartridge to find out a little sooner..

 

[TRWham]

Thanks, but I'm not following you.
The 361 valve has 4 ports. How do we get 3 independent / 6 shared out of 4 ports?


It's hard to tell - and Moen can't tell me if an "upside down" 231 valve with a 361 cartridge (limiter removed) will flow water to port 2 or 3. I suspect that's the case, but going to have to wait until May as these cartridges are backordered. I could buy a 361 valve and pull the cartridge to find out a little sooner..

Sorry, I did not state it correctly. The 231 is 2 independent only with the 3rd output capped. The 361 can be 2 independent or shared (cap the 3rd connection), or 3 independent with any 2 shared (6 options). There is no option for all 3 on at once. We are waiting for 362 trims (combined shower valve and transfer) at the moment for a project. The cartridge is now sold with the trim, so we have the roughs installed but do not yet have the cartridges to explore how they function. The Moen literature is not real clear.

 

[dcg9381]

Thanks. That makes more sense. My first time installing valves, so I'm kinda miffed that I got it wrong.

The configuration I've got not is basically 1: Shower head 2: Capped 3: Shower head. I'm hoping the 361 cartridge will allow shared functions on 1 and 3 at the same time. No one can tell me for sure and as cartridges are backordered for a month, I'm just going to pull one out of a 361 valve to see if it works or if I'll be cutting up walls.

 

[flat350]

"Thanks, but I'm not following you.
The 361 valve has 4 ports. How do we get 3 independent / 6 shared out of 4 ports?"

The handle will have a detent as it rotates for each function like............Found a pic of what ports work together or alone from Moen,not really 6 shared functions.
They seem to be configured just like the Kohler transfer valves that have been around for years. I've installed 100's of the Kohler transfer valves over the years but never tried to get one to work installed upside down, not familiar with the new Moen valves.
I may be wrong but I don't think it will work feeding the transfer valve through the #1 outlet instead of the correct inlet port.

 

[dcg9381]

flat350,
Where'd you find that photo / diagram? That is absolutely great and I couldn't find anything like it.

What I think I'm trying to do is U361 valve (I'm going to swap in the cartridge) and the settings that will work for me are "Device #1" and "Device #1 & #3". I don't see why it'd make a difference if the IN port and #1 port are swapped if this is a simple "open/closed" valve system. If there is some sort of one-way in it, then I get why it wouldn't work.

You guys are better support than Moen, BTW... They should be cutting you checks.

 

[casmurbax]

Are you absolutely positive that you have open pipe to all the heads? There isn't any grout etc in the water pipes? from the valve to the outlets?

 

[dcg9381]

Are you absolutely positive that you have open pipe to all the heads? There isn't any grout etc in the water pipes? from the valve to the outlets?

Absolutely sure. Blew the "non-working" show head out with the cartridge removed - no debris.

The graphic above explains it to me. I have the heads installed on #1 and #3

 

[dcg9381]

Are you absolutely positive that you have open pipe to all the heads? There isn't any grout etc in the water pipes? from the valve to the outlets?

Absolutely sure. Blew the "non-working" show head out with the cartridge removed - no debris.

The graphic above explains it to me. I have the heads installed on #1 and #3, which is an unsupported configuration.. Even then, without the "shared" operation of the 361 valve this wasn't going to work right to begin with.

I installed 4 valves.. I consistently installed them all upside down... 3 M-core and one posi-temp.

 

[flat350]

flat350,
Where'd you find that photo / diagram? That is absolutely great and I couldn't find anything like it.

What I think I'm trying to do is U361 valve (I'm going to swap in the cartridge) and the settings that will work for me are "Device #1" and "Device #1 & #3". I don't see why it'd make a difference if the IN port and #1 port are swapped if this is a simple "open/closed" valve system. If there is some sort of one-way in it, then I get why it wouldn't work.

You guys are better support than Moen, BTW... They should be cutting you checks.

It's on Moen's site buried in a professional only area,try it upside down if it work's great, if not time to excavate.

 

[firebirdparts]

flat350,
Where'd you find that photo / diagram? That is absolutely great and I couldn't find anything like it.

What I think I'm trying to do is U361 valve (I'm going to swap in the cartridge) and the settings that will work for me are "Device #1" and "Device #1 & #3". I don't see why it'd make a difference if the IN port and #1 port are swapped if this is a simple "open/closed" valve system. If there is some sort of one-way in it, then I get why it wouldn't work.

You guys are better support than Moen, BTW... They should be cutting you checks.

Well, you can see, what you can't do upside down is connect two ports without one of them being IN, in your case 1 to 3 only. That's all (maybe). That might actually turn out not to be the case. There must be small ports in that thing.

 

[dcg9381]

So I put a 361 cartridge in a 261 valve body (upside down) and it functions as:
#1 alone
#1 and #3 shared

Which is "good enough" for me not to go in cutting up walls. Most ideal would have been 2 heads with either/both function, but for the ridiculousness that is this shower, it's great...

Thanks to everyone that contributed here. I'll make darn sure that I install shower valves correctly next time.

 

[flat350]

At least you got it to work almost 1/2 way.........

 

[TRWham]

So I put a 361 cartridge in a 261 valve body (upside down) and it functions as:
#1 alone
#1 and #3 shared

Which is "good enough" for me not to go in cutting up walls. Most ideal would have been 2 heads with either/both function, but for the ridiculousness that is this shower, it's great...

Thanks to everyone that contributed here. I'll make darn sure that I install shower valves correctly next time.

This is what I was hoping you could do. Not exactly what you wanted, but close enough to work.