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Monarch 10ee clean up and 5HP VFD conversion

RogueFab

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Jun 27, 2013
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Oregon
I finally found a Monarch 10EE, the lathe I have always wanted. The price was right, although I wanted one with the original DC drive. This one came mostly complete, less the entire DC drive. It came with some tooling (3 jaw, aloris style TP, cutters, holders, parting tool, etc). No steady rest and no 4 jaw. Came with a baldor 184 frame 5 HP 3 phase motor. The ELSR is not complete unfortunately. And it has a few bent handles and some misuse dings. Ways look good and it hasn't been ran a ton, just was obviously in a shop where nobody cared about it at one point. But it was within a few hours of my shop.

The plan is to clean it up a little, get it running with a VFD in direct drive to make some parts for the back gear, and then install the backgear box.

Here are a few photos:

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Packard V8

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Congrats. I've always wanted one just because. If one can live with the short bed, the Monarch is the ne plus ultra of small lathes.

There are many stories as to how our tax dollars and the arms/nuclear race subsidized the design as well as the purchase of hundreds of them.

jack vines
 

Carla

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Hmmm..........That one appears to be a very early EE.

It would be interesting to call the Monarch works and ask them to look it up by serial number in the records.

It may be early enough to have originally had the 'Sundstrand' drive system, or it may have had one of the first iterations of the 'Ward-Leonard' system, with a Reliance DC variable speed motor, driven by the 'motor-generator', in which the motor end runs on 3 phase 220 or 440 VAC, the 'generator' end provides the DC power for the motor, and speed control is done by a vary large duplex rheostat.

It may be identified by several details as being too early for the vacuum-tube drive system.

Actually, your best option, once the particular version of your machine has been identified, is to locate and rebuild an original Ward Leonard system, from an EE which is otherwise unrepairable due to rust or damage. A surprisingly large number of these early EE models may be found in 'sabotaged' condition, from which parts could be salvaged.

One might easily think 'why should I find parts and recondition an obsolete system?', and that is a fair question.

The basic answer is that the Ward Leonard system works well, and will maintain spindle speed under varying load conditions. It has the disadvantage of noisy operation, with the whine if its original 3450 rpm M/G set. (fortunately, the M/G set can be re-located remotely, in an acoustical enclosure, which merely involves running conduit, and carefully tagging the wires at both ends before running the longer wiring)

The quiet vacuum-tube drives are tricky and troublesome. They ran very nicely when new, but after decades of component 'degradation', may require some sophisticated inspection and component renewal. If......and this is the big 'if'......the maze of electronic components are 'restored to as-new condition', a not-easy task for those who are not electrical engineers, they will run well and give good service for many years.

So-called 'modern solid state systems' are a gamble, from the stories one may read.

I've seen some EE lathes which were offered for sale with such replacement drives, after the owners had sunk a lot of $$$$$ in the drive system, and the drive would not adequately 'compensate' to maintain a steady speed under the variable loadings in a cut.

There are now, or so I've read, 'modern' systems which will compensate adequately, but are quite sophisticated, and quite expensive in first-cost.

This is probably one of the best available examples of the 'investigate before you invest' concept. Too many salesmen will tell you that their drive system will work for the drive loadings the EE will experience in operation.......and you'll find out differently.

I tried to run an EE which had been re-fitted with a Sabina drive, (and was offered for sale cheaply) which ran ever so smoothly, full range, under no-load or light load. When I tried a fairly heavy cut, well within the capability of a Ward Leonard EE, the Sabina system 'hunted' enough to cause quite a dramatic resonance on the tool/workpiece.......and this after a lot of time had been put into 'tuning' the system.

If you might be wondering, I've carefully kept my own 'module drive' vacuum-tube EE 'as original', with component replacement and 'tuning' as needed......but I will admit that I've 'gotten lucky', with some help from a old-time electrical engineer friend.

The story of the EE drive systems, and their world of problems, has been written-up quite extensively in the 'Monarch' area of www.practicalmachinist.com

Do have a very careful read, there are a lot of stories, and second-hand experience is.....as is ever so obvious....the most cost-effective.

All that said.......if you need close tolerances for diameter and roundness, with a high finish, particularly in tough materials, the EE.....or the Hendey 'gagemakers' lathe'......will pay for itself surprisingly quickly, as compared to, say, the accurate but much more delicate HLVH model Hardinge.

There is good reason that many turners will make the investment for an EE or a Hendey gage lathe.....and you really have to run them awhile to understand the 'why' of those machines.

Added on edit.........would you be willing to post the serial number of your EE, and its date of mfg. from the data plate? I'm guessing the s/n is below 11000.....or not much above.

Oh, and a bit more edit.......your machine doesn't have the so-called 'electric lead screw reverse', which is actually a closely adjustable spindle motor stop, done by a micro-switch.

Some of the early EE machines did have the lead screw reverse like the larger Monarchs, along with an electric spindle motor stop, but yours doesn't have that system. Someone has apparently added the version of the bed stop housing from one of those, which originally had the L/R switch.

Indeed, a few EE users like that system, but most I've spoken with don't use it, as fitting a Trava-Dial to read longitudinal will do as well for running internal 'blind hole' threads, in practice.

Getting the stop set for the electric spindle stop is 'fiddly' and only really worth-while for short production runs with a dead-length collet. My own EE has that system, and I've never had reason to use it, but I do strongly recommend fitting a Trava-Dial.

cheers

Carla
 
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Steinmetz

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Oct 11, 2012
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Washington State
Congrats. I've always wanted one just because. If one can live with the short bed, the Monarch is the ne plus ultra of small lathes.

There are many stories as to how our tax dollars and the arms/nuclear race subsidized the design as well as the purchase of hundreds of them.

jack vines

That's correct. I used one many times when I was a grad student at Stanford. It was a retiree from the defense industry.
 
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RogueFab

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Carla-

I don't mind, I'll post the SN. I think I recall it being a 1943. Previous owner said is was a MG DC drive, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was wrong. He didn't take it apart. I wish the air head who did had kept the parts for me. I would love to have that system to repair, but I already bought a sensorless vector drive for it. I know it won't compare to the DC system, made even worse by lack of a feedback loop from an encoder motor and sensor equipped drive, but I am okay with that. At least for now. I just want to get it running.
 

IndyGarage

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Looks Identical to mine, which is a 1942. Mine hadn't run in years, but the old drive fired right up.

It gets a bit finicky from time to time - if it starts balking, shut it down, start the generator back up and it goes again.
 

Steve from Socal

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Hutchinson Ks.
All the round dial 10EEs were motor/generator after the early Sundstrand drive. Tube drives came out in the early 1950's. The MG are nominal 3 HP the tube drives are 5 HP. A 5 HP AC motor and drive using an inverter can closely match a 3 HP DC drives performance. You will need to get the back gear in place for lower speed operations.

Good luck with you new lathe, they are wonderful machines.

Steve
 
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RogueFab

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No tailstock?

I have it. I took some easy to remove heavy stuff off the machine to pick it up with the forklift. It is rated for 3500 lbs with the forks in, and they had to be all the way out to reach it.

I'll get some more pics up. I have been repairing the trim panels that cover the belt area. One was cracked and the other was in 2 pieces.
 

My Junk is Stuff

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I too love the 10EE's. We had one at Purdue Cal in the machine shop I ran for a few years. I think we got it from Inland Steel, but it was not all worn out. It was used in one of their test labs or something. I totally agree with everything you all have said, that lathe was a Cadillac for sure. Ours still had the MG set in it and it all worked perfectly. Plus to me that Monarch was just the coolest looking machine I had ever seen. I would love to get my hands on one again someday.
 
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RogueFab

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Finally got time to get you guys some photos. Lathe data plate, and the cover repairs. I had several snapped off machine screws flush with the cover surfaces, I cut slots in them and used a small flathead to remove them. Then I welded the covers up. Someday I'll make or buy the missing trim pieces.
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More photos to come soon.
 

rsanter

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visalia ca
If you need to set up a VFD system that will help hold the RPM of the machine steady. It may be cheaper to get a rotary encoder that you attach to the spindle and a PLC.
You will need a PLC that has an analog input and either an analog output or a networkable VFD to communicate with the PLC.
Then you will feed speed adjustments into the PLC not the VFD. The VFD will look at spindle speed and will constantly adjust the VFD to keep the spindle speed where yo set it

Bob
 
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RogueFab

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Thanks rsanter. I never thought about adoing an encoder/plc to complete a feedback loop.

More pics
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RogueFab

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Here it is with the tailstock and other stuff put back on. I went through and tightened loose bolts too. The lead nut on the cross feed was on backwards so I switched that. And only half of the bolts that hold the lathe to the base were instaled (only 2 were tight!).

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RogueFab

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With the loose bolts everywhere you will want to check alignment of the headstock and tailstock.

Steve

Hmmm. I was planning to eventually check that, but now that you mention it, it is probably grossly off.

I need to grind some HSS and make a dead center for the TS before I chuck up a bar and center up the tailstock. But I will be doing that at some point before making the back gear work.
 
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RogueFab

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Making the direct drive motor subframe. This is a temporary thing, since I need the lathe running to make parts for the back gear installation. Made it out of some mostly scrap 2x1x.125 channel.

I am fully aware that (2) 3/4 inch bolts in line with the rear pair of mounting points on this big motor is not a very rigid mounting system. :sad: I also know that the motor can only move up at the belt area, not down or side to side. So if the motor moves, the belt will slip. If it slips too much, I'll address it.

I measured the belt length with a nylon strap, came out to 83 inches. I found an automotive serpentine belt for $17 shipped that should fit nicely. If anyone else is doing this, go to google/amazon/ebay and search for "serpentine belt 83" or whatever your length is. Then type in -bmw, -audi, etc to get rid of the part number results as you see them cluttering your array of results. This left me with dimensional titled belts, and the one I wanted.

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logixjock

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Sturgeon, MO
If you need to set up a VFD system that will help hold the RPM of the machine steady. It may be cheaper to get a rotary encoder that you attach to the spindle and a PLC.
You will need a PLC that has an analog input and either an analog output or a networkable VFD to communicate with the PLC.
Then you will feed speed adjustments into the PLC not the VFD. The VFD will look at spindle speed and will constantly adjust the VFD to keep the spindle speed where yo set it

Bob

No need to add complexity where it's not required, any modern drive capable of sensorless vector operation will let you go down to ~10Hz without cogging and at a good percentage of rated power without the need of an encoder. Just finishing up a machine retrofit at work using the new Allen-Bradley 525 frequency drives. The 20 year old Baldor 25HP motors work quite nicely down to 10Hz. Haven't tested them any lower than that yet. We haven't used an encoder on a VFD application for years. Remember if you run an old induction motor below ~40Hz you will need to rig up some kind of a blower to force cool it. Without Z rated insulation they don't live very long at low speeds.

Getting ready to install a 40HP ABB drive in a stamping press cradle Thursday. We did it's sister machine in the spring and it was able to run reliably down to 8Hz. The new drives really are worlds ahead of what was available just 5 years ago.

The 523/525 family of drives are fairly reasonably priced, but Automation direct sells it's DuraPulse GS3 series for about 1/2 the price. I've only used 2 of those in a sensorless vector application but they worked OK. We normaly use the AB stuff anymore for the ease of integration with the Logix platform, but your application could get by with pretty much anything rated for sensorless vector.

PM me if you decide to go the VFD route and I can help you pick out something that will work well for your application.
 
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RogueFab

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No need to add complexity where it's not required, any modern drive capable of sensorless vector operation will let you go down to ~10Hz without cogging and at a good percentage of rated power without the need of an encoder. Just finishing up a machine retrofit at work using the new Allen-Bradley 525 frequency drives. The 20 year old Baldor 25HP motors work quite nicely down to 10Hz. Haven't tested them any lower than that yet. We haven't used an encoder on a VFD application for years. Remember if you run an old induction motor below ~40Hz you will need to rig up some kind of a blower to force cool it. Without Z rated insulation they don't live very long at low speeds.

Getting ready to install a 40HP ABB drive in a stamping press cradle Thursday. We did it's sister machine in the spring and it was able to run reliably down to 8Hz. The new drives really are worlds ahead of what was available just 5 years ago.

The 523/525 family of drives are fairly reasonably priced, but Automation direct sells it's DuraPulse GS3 series for about 1/2 the price. I've only used 2 of those in a sensorless vector application but they worked OK. We normaly use the AB stuff anymore for the ease of integration with the Logix platform, but your application could get by with pretty much anything rated for sensorless vector.

PM me if you decide to go the VFD route and I can help you pick out something that will work well for your application.

Thank you for taking the time to explain and share your experience. I would be sending you a PM to help me select one, except I just unboxed and hooked up a cheap sensorless vector drive VFD. I am a newb on VFDs, but I don't think I completely wasted my money.

I also got the belt on and found out I needed to add some support to the back to counteract the belt tension. I put some tensioning screws back there too. 1/4-28 since this set up is relatively temporary.

Temporary motor bracket Rev B:
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RogueFab

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Just got it making chips. Have to make a part for a customer. I'll get some pics up soon.
 
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RogueFab

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Pics... here are the belts. 83" and 32". Application on the 32 inch belt is a Mazda RX-8 accessory belt. I would have used flat power belts and alligator lacing, but these were way cheaper and work well. On heavy cuts the belt slips on the motor shaft as you would expect. But it should be good enough to make a few parts, hopefully enough to adapt the back gear into this machine.

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And the second part to come off the machine (1st was a collar to fix the start capacitor switch on the motor for my bandsaw):
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Garage Rat2

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COPY EDIT:pics... here are the belts. 83" and 32". Application on the 32 inch belt is a Mazda RX-8 accessory belt. I would have used flat power belts and alligator lacing, but these were way cheaper and work well. On heavy cuts the belt slips on the motor shaft as you would expect.

You really should install a sheave (pulley) on the motor shaft... in the pic the belt is right
out on the end of the shaft. Not using a pulley and running a flat belt in this way calculates to a excessive over-hung load (radial load) on the electric motor bearing.
 
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RogueFab

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COPY EDIT:pics... here are the belts. 83" and 32". Application on the 32 inch belt is a Mazda RX-8 accessory belt. I would have used flat power belts and alligator lacing, but these were way cheaper and work well. On heavy cuts the belt slips on the motor shaft as you would expect.

You really should install a sheave (pulley) on the motor shaft... in the pic the belt is right
out on the end of the shaft. Not using a pulley and running a flat belt in this way calculates to a excessive over-hung load (radial load) on the electric motor bearing.

I was so excited to be making chips I didn't notice. I think you are right, that sounds worthwhile.
 
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RogueFab

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I haven't touched the lathe in a bit, but i did make mounts for the belt covers for it. I had insurance guts snapping photos. Had to make things look good!

I have no idea how they originally mounted. This is what I could make with what I had.

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This is a close up of one of the mounts installed in the main casting. There are three vertical pins in the belt cover that drop down into the mounts.

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That looks safe!!!

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CRH

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Utah
I'm also bitten by the Monarch bug. Just finally got mine after posting a wanted ad on the HAMB. I'm super excited as I get it in working shape!

Yours looks great!
 
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RogueFab

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Did some more work on this machine finally. The carriage feed lever has always been broken, so I welded it up and cut off all the posit I've material.

Broken:
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Ground a relief, welded:
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Cutting back down:
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RogueFab

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I installed the carriage feed lever... no movement. Time for an apron rebuild!


I cleaned out all the lines on the oiling system, the upper (way, cross feed, and compound) oiling system is still clogged. but the lower half is good.

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I took the chuck apart too. It needs to be ground a little to true up and there is no reason to do that if there is dirt in the scroll.

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