Monitor Barn Style Garage

[wsettle]

I am considering several building options in steel, pole barn and stick built and after much thought (and some feedback from this forum), I have decided to build my shop in the style of a monitor barn which is my favorite style of barn. It would give me a full height loft around 800 sq ft and about 2000 sq ft of shop space with a 52' by 40' foot print.

What I want to do is use beams and beef up the 1st floot framing to minimize if not eliminate the usual support poles under the loft. Is this possible?

Would increasing the wall lumber to 2" x 8", 10" or 12" and sizing the appropriate beams keep this thing up?

I've talked with the local lumber yard and sizing the beams is apparently not a problem and the beams are not too expensive. But my main concern is the side walls that will hold up the beams. How long should the walls be to provide good sheer strength and what would the wall thickness for the first floor?

I've called 5 local engineering firms but have gotten voice mail from every one so I'm still looking but I'll have a structural engineer do the sizing calcs. However, I was hoping some of you could chime in on if this is even possible based on my drawings and if anyone has any suggestions or recommendations for making it structurally sound I would appreciate it.

Here are a few pics to help show what I'm thinking. The red thing in the middle represents a 2 post lift.

I appreciate any feedback.

 

[MattFletcher]

the garage looks great, good work with the drawings as well

 

[z28snksknr]

WARNING: My response offers zero help to your problem

What program are you using to generate these drawings? Also, What's the story behind the stack of ten 2x's over the garage opening? I'm curious as to how that was determined is all.

 

[Wingnut65]

Nice design.

One thought on eliminating the columns, the whole wall from the upper windows down to the header could be designed as a pre-engineered girder truss to span front to back. Have a structural engineer or truss company look at these sketches before you finalize your design.

 

[wsettle]

the garage looks great, good work with the drawings as well

Thanks.

WARNING: My response offers zero help to your problem

What program are you using to generate these drawings? Also, What's the story behind the stack of ten 2x's over the garage opening? I'm curious as to how that was determined is all.

I'm using Punch AS5000 to make the drawings. I lowered the beam so I could add ceiling joists in the side wings for attic space or for high storage in the wings if I wanted.

Nice design.

One thought on eliminating the columns, the whole wall from the upper windows down to the header could be designed as a pre-engineered girder truss to span front to back. Have a structural engineer or truss company look at these sketches before you finalize your design.

That is an interesting thought. The trusses could support the upper floor without the beam and columns. Thanks for the input.

All of the truss companies around here (which are only two) won't do engineering so I've got to find a structural engineer. Now if they would only answer their phones!

 

[thump186]

First off nice design and plans. Second why not us an engineered microlam beams in the openings and wooden I beams for the floor joists, also why not use metal stud on the interior walls? with the metal interior walls the studs can be placed 24 oc and still maintain the strength of stick built walls. I beam floor joists can be ordered in many sizes but offer a much stiffer and squeak free floor.

http://www.askthebuilder.com/B227_Engineered_I_Joist_Advantages.shtml



I-Joist Advantages

The APA PRI-400 standard makes engineered wood I joists easy to specify and order.

I joists install much in the same manner as traditional wood floor joists. There are several things you must do to insure a fault free installation, however this can usually be learned in several hours. No single detail is very complicated. All of these details are illustrated exceptionally well in a FREE booklet that is offered by the APA. Visit the Engineered Wood Association's web site at www.apawood.org and check under publications for information that can be downloaded.

I joists are available in deeper depths than standard floor joists. The largest standard floor joist is a 2x12. You can order I joists in depths up to 16 inches! This allows you to span greater distances which normally translates to wide open spaces.

I joists are also more consistent in size and shape than traditional floor joists. Some new flooring materials (laminate flooring) can't be installed over traditional floor joists that have different height crowns. You don't have this problem with I joists! They are true and straight all of the time.

I joist span design standards make them a stiffer floor. This can help reduce squeaks. It also makes a more solid floor. I joists are superb. Give them a serious look!

 

[willymakeit]

I would add a trap door or removable panel over the lift. This way you can put a platform on the lift and move heavy or bulky items up easily.

 

[George185]

What is teh ceiling height for your lift stall? I built my garage with 12' ceilings which works but I wish i could have 14' or 16' to lift a bit higher and have room for a trolly/hoist and ceiling fans. But even with 12' I can lift my F350 and walk under it, but I can't have teh hood up.

 

[wsettle]

First off nice design and plans. Second why not us an engineered microlam beams in the openings and wooden I beams for the floor joists, also why not use metal stud on the interior walls? with the metal interior walls the studs can be placed 24 oc and still maintain the strength of stick built walls. I beam floor joists can be ordered in many sizes but offer a much stiffer and squeak free floor.

http://www.askthebuilder.com/B227_Engineered_I_Joist_Advantages.shtml



I-Joist Advantages

The APA PRI-400 standard makes engineered wood I joists easy to specify and order.

I joists install much in the same manner as traditional wood floor joists. There are several things you must do to insure a fault free installation, however this can usually be learned in several hours. No single detail is very complicated. All of these details are illustrated exceptionally well in a FREE booklet that is offered by the APA. Visit the Engineered Wood Association's web site at www.apawood.org and check under publications for information that can be downloaded.

I joists are available in deeper depths than standard floor joists. The largest standard floor joist is a 2x12. You can order I joists in depths up to 16 inches! This allows you to span greater distances which normally translates to wide open spaces.

I joists are also more consistent in size and shape than traditional floor joists. Some new flooring materials (laminate flooring) can't be installed over traditional floor joists that have different height crowns. You don't have this problem with I joists! They are true and straight all of the time.

I joist span design standards make them a stiffer floor. This can help reduce squeaks. It also makes a more solid floor. I joists are superb. Give them a serious look!

Thanks for comments and the info. Much appreciated.

My local lumbar yard carries (or orders) Boise Gluam beams which maybe the same as the microlam beams you mention but I'll check on the differences. I need to bone up on engineered beams though as there are a lot of choices out there. The APA link is great!

I do plan on using I joists in the second floor. The drawing does not show it because Punch knows nothing about engineered wood except for beams.

 

[wsettle]

I would add a trap door or removable panel over the lift. This way you can put a platform on the lift and move heavy or bulky items up easily.

I like the idea but I don't think a lift won't go up that high. Have you seen anyone that has done this type of thing and can point me to a post or link? I'd love to see it.

I have been toying with the idea of a hoist out the loft door so I can bring things up from the front. That would be fairly traditional "barn technology" that I think would be very handy.

 

[wsettle]

What is teh ceiling height for your lift stall? I built my garage with 12' ceilings which works but I wish i could have 14' or 16' to lift a bit higher and have room for a trolly/hoist and ceiling fans. But even with 12' I can lift my F350 and walk under it, but I can't have teh hood up.

Currently it is 13' as I plan on getting a Rotary A10i-EH1 but was thinking of making it 14' for the EH2 as it would allow some of my contractor neighbors to work on it that have ladder racks on their trucks.

I have a sneaking suspision that once I get the shop built and a lift installed, my circle for friends will grow

 

[willymakeit]

I like the idea but I don't think a lift won't go up that high. Have you seen anyone that has done this type of thing and can point me to a post or link? I'd love to see it.

I have been toying with the idea of a hoist out the loft door so I can bring things up from the front. That would be fairly traditional "barn technology" that I think would be very handy.

No it just came to mind. With the right headers in the opening, it would work. I realize it wouldnt reach the other floor, but the opening[door] would be nice if you needed it. Shouldnt be a problem for a compentent framer.

 

[billspit]

I love your design. I acn't wait to see where this goes. I have been thinking about something like this for me, Even something for a small cabin with the loft being the bedroom.

 

[DeadSock]

I'm also going to be building a monitor style barn in the next year or so (and not far off from your dimensions).

I'm leaning towards a post and beam structure (maybe steel maybe wood).
My initial thoughts are having the 2-story section either be 24x36 or 32x32.
In a 24x36 configuration it would be 4 "post+beams" at 12' centers.
In a 32x32 configuration it would be 3 "post+beams" at 16' centers (and a center post)
In both cases I'd probably go with 12' "wings".

I'm also going to be hunting for a structural engineer since I'm now moving into the PRC (that's Peoples Republic of California ... not the "other one") ...

wsettle, what roof/wind loads are you going to have to meet for your site?

Also, FWIW, my old shop was a 48x24 steel building where 32' was "upper" story. There were no posts supporting the upstairs section but instead, steel rods handing from the 2 steel trusses that spanned the 32' ... just another idea to consider about engineering a means to span a distance without posts underneath.

Rob

 

[bobadame]

I've been working on mine on and off for nearly 2 years now. I should have my final inspection in a week or so.

You can see it here:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50779&highlight=bobadame

 

[d110pickup]

Wsettle,
Check out my build thread. It's monitor style but different proportions than your drawings. I need to post a final few photos but it's pretty much as you see it.
Mike

 

[KMR Construction]

Go steel for the beams. It will be cheaper and stronger then LVL/glulam. Then frame the 2nd floor with I joists. I love the moniter style barn

 

[bobadame]

Steel I beams make it easy to build in a gantry crane. I installed one in my barn last week. Total cost of the crane was under $500. It runs north and south 21' and east and west 24'. The lower I beam is connected to the 2 upper beams with a couple of Harbor Freight, 2 ton trolleys. The chain fall hangs from a third 2 ton trolley. It's a handy thing. My 2 post lift will be installed between 2 of the 6"x6" posts that hold up the I beams. There's air, 110 vac and 220 vac available at each of the posts.

Those are really nice drawings by the way.
I don't know if snow load is an issue where you live. If it is, remember to add this load to the load/ square foot of the loft area. 1/2 the snow load is carried by the lower walls and 1/2 will be carried by the beams that hold up the upper story. In northern Colorado I had to design for 30 lbs/ square foot snow load.

 

[wsettle]

wsettle, what roof/wind loads are you going to have to meet for your site?

To be honest, I don't know. Hopefully the engineer will help me with that.

 

[wsettle]

I've been working on mine on and off for nearly 2 years now. I should have my final inspection in a week or so.

You can see it here:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50779&highlight=bobadame

That looks great and so much room.

 

[wsettle]

Wsettle,
Check out my build thread. It's monitor style but different proportions than your drawings. I need to post a final few photos but it's pretty much as you see it.
Mike

Your shop looks great. The metal to wood connectors are nice. Thanks for the link. It's a good read.

 

[wsettle]

Go steel for the beams. It will be cheaper and stronger then LVL/glulam. Then frame the 2nd floor with I joists. I love the moniter style barn

Yeah, the monitor barn is a classic IMO. The steel beams sound like a good idea but I've never used them before. I'll do some goggling for more detail. I'm not visualizing how they marry up with a wood structure but it looks like you bolt top plates to them so that part seems easy. Thanks for the input.

 

[wsettle]

Steel I beams make it easy to build in a gantry crane. I installed one in my barn last week. Total cost of the crane was under $500. It runs north and south 21' and east and west 24'. The lower I beam is connected to the 2 upper beams with a couple of Harbor Freight, 2 ton trolleys. The chain fall hangs from a third 2 ton trolley. It's a handy thing. My 2 post lift will be installed between 2 of the 6"x6" posts that hold up the I beams. There's air, 110 vac and 220 vac available at each of the posts.

Those are really nice drawings by the way.
I don't know if snow load is an issue where you live. If it is, remember to add this load to the load/ square foot of the loft area. 1/2 the snow load is carried by the lower walls and 1/2 will be carried by the beams that hold up the upper story. In northern Colorado I had to design for 30 lbs/ square foot snow load.

Your gantry crane sounds awesome. You can't really leave me hanging with just a description can you? I would love to see some pics of your crane setup.

Thanks for the tips on the snow load. I live in AR so it rarely snows around here thankfully.

 

[bobadame]

Barns I can build, but getting pictures from this camera into this blasted computer is an ordeal.

 

[bobadame]

I was taking another look at your barn plan and got to thinking that the top section looks like an old style covered bridge. Those of course are self supporting, being bridge and all.

You could build rather stiff walls by sheathing both sides, inside and outside with OSB. I'd glue and nail it on. Extend the OSB down below the bottom plate to reach the bottom edge of the girder below it. Still though steel I beams have their advantages.

 

[wsettle]

Your right, it does look like an old covered bridge. I liked the idea of the steel beams and gantry crane so I updated the drawing. It looks like I could make a gantry crane that spans all three doors and can slide back to the lift. Now that is a cool idea.

I added a loft i-beam as a romantic memory of old barns. It would be nice to engineer that in if it was cost effective. The beam would really make hauling stuff to the 2nd floor easier than the stairs.

Great ideas guys.

 

[bobadame]

Your latest rendering is exactly what I have done in my barn although I haven't erected the 2 post lift yet. I'll try to get some pictures up in a new thread titled cheap crane or something like that. I just noticed a similar paint scheme as well, fun stuff.

 

[wsettle]

I'll be looking for your post. I'd love to see it.

So, I'm still trying to convince myself that building a gantry crane is worth while. How do you use your crane or plan to use it?

 

[bobadame]

I'll be moving from my old shop into this one within the next month. I have these simple cranes in both shops. I will be moving a couple of lathes, a milling machine, a big English wheel and a bunch of other heavy stuff. The cranes make it possible for me to do this by myself. I've used the crane to lift my riding lawn mower high enough that I was able to sharpen the blades insitu with a 4" Makita grinder. In the new shop I plan to get into hot rod building. With the crane I'll be able to lift off bodies from their frames. In the old shop I built a Dwarf car on a big flat welding table. When it was done I just lifted it off and set it down.

 

[wsettle]

Schweeeet!

 

[fuslit]

This is very similar to the barn that my wife and I are interested in building, I'll be following this thread with interest.

-Todd

 

[bobadame]

Here's the crane pictures.http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71799&highlight=overhead+crane

 

[andrewbuckley]

did you get it built. I would be thrilled to know how you spanned the distance. I want to build a 46 x 56 with no supports and if you can send me images of what you did I would be so grateful as I want to have the middle section 18 ft wide and 56 feet long to have living space and on each end add carriage doors 14 feet tall and 14 feet wide in the lower middle section and on the sides 10 X 10 carriage doors to store vintage rvs.

 

[bobbycoke]

Hi, I just built the exact style garage, a monitor barn that is 36 by40 feet. The center two story section is 20x36 feet for 720 square feet. The first center floor has a 12 foot cieling and the upper storage room has 6 foot wall at the sides to a 10 foot center ridge. The outside wall deminsions have no bearing on the span that holds up thesecond floor. Two by six outside wall framing was fine but to span the 36 foot length I used 4- 24inch by 1-1/2 inch glumans sistered running the entire 36 feet with one column 4- sistered 2x6,s at the 18 foot mark. So it is supported front , back, and middle buy these 51/2 inch by 6inch columns.... to not use the center column my builder felt would need much too large a gluelam [36inch buy 6] or steel both needing a crain etc [$$$$$] Remember this long span 40 feet in your case must hold theupper room dead load and the snow loads of the center cieling and both side "leanto's" roof loads...... I also used 2x12 rafters on all roofs as a safty factor as I am in Vermont and snow and Ice add up. Yours is a great size, I don't know your location butI put in a radient floor heating system... Bobbycoke

 

[andrewbuckley]

did you finally get it built. I printed out your idea and want to show an engineer so he can build one for me with a length of 56ft x 46 feet if possible

 

[andrewbuckley]

bobby can you send me a picture of your barn, I want to build a 46 ft wide x 56 feet long with a 18 foot center width, 15 ft wide on the sides and a 18 x 56 foot upper living space with 9ft tall walls on sides. I plan on storing vintage travel trailers when I get it built.
andrew

 

[danski0224]

What I want to do is use beams and beef up the 1st floot framing to minimize if not eliminate the usual support poles under the loft. Is this possible?

Would increasing the wall lumber to 2" x 8", 10" or 12" and sizing the appropriate beams keep this thing up?

I've talked with the local lumber yard and sizing the beams is apparently not a problem and the beams are not too expensive. But my main concern is the side walls that will hold up the beams. How long should the walls be to provide good sheer strength and what would the wall thickness for the first floor?

I've called 5 local engineering firms but have gotten voice mail from every one so I'm still looking but I'll have a structural engineer do the sizing calcs. However, I was hoping some of you could chime in on if this is even possible based on my drawings and if anyone has any suggestions or recommendations for making it structurally sound I would appreciate it.

Here are a few pics to help show what I'm thinking. The red thing in the middle represents a 2 post lift.

I appreciate any feedback.

I would imagine, given the date of the 1st posting, that progress has been made.

If not...

The thickness of the walls isn't what holds up the beams.

You need some type of steel support and a proper footing with embedded anchors and rebar. This concrete will be much thicker than the rest of the floor and these areas are formed and poured first.

Given enough dollars, the proper size steel beam will span the opening desired. Keep in mind that this will be expensive and heavy. It will need to be set with a crane truck.

Not an engineer myself, but I'll wager that adding that center support cuts a single unsupported beam size down by at least half, and makes the pieces smaller.

Wood beams like LVL's have different fire ratings than plain old steel. Steel beams can be boxed in or coated to provide a fire rating.

Normally, steel for trolley crane use has different specifications than plain old I beam support steel. You might be able to have a smaller section of trolley spec beam attached to the main support beam with welded tabs on both and bolts. Obviously, this would need to be engineered and fabbed at the steel shop. Adding tabs creates distance needed for fire resistant framing or spray. The smaller trolley spec steel would be less money than the bigger piece.

Footing location, rebar and anchors, concrete footings and then steel erection would need a higher degree of precision if you plan to traverse the span with a crane setup. Something to be aware of. You aren't simply making a 3' square footing and hoping to land the steel somewhere in the square.

Odds are that the engineering firms do not normally deal with residential type clients directly. You probably need to work with an architect.

 

[PAToyota]

You need some type of steel support and a proper footing with embedded anchors and rebar. This concrete will be much thicker than the rest of the floor and these areas are formed and poured first.

I've been seeing a disturbing trend in residential construction of using steel beams supported by 2x4 walls - they just stack up 2x4s under the beams. This really provides little in the way of lateral support and doesn't even give a good attachment method. I'd never design it that way. Danski is correct in suggesting a proper steel column and footer to support any steel beam. Doing it properly isn't going to cost you that much more and will give you much better peace of mind.

Given enough dollars, the proper size steel beam will span the opening desired. Keep in mind that this will be expensive and heavy. It will need to be set with a crane truck.

An engineer can do a quick calculation and tell you what you need. Unless you need a shallow beam, a deeper beam can often be significantly lighter. Again, proper design is the key.

Not an engineer myself, but I'll wager that adding that center support cuts a single unsupported beam size down by at least half, and makes the pieces smaller.

Not an engineer, but I'm an architect and I worked for a couple structural engineering firms for ten years. Cutting the span in half will significantly reduce the size of the beam. But if you're looking to add a trolley at some point, a column in the middle sort of screws that up...

Wood beams like LVL's have different fire ratings than plain old steel. Steel beams can be boxed in or coated to provide a fire rating.

Yep. LVLs and heavy timber actually are considered fire resistant. The exterior chars and prevents burning further. Depending on the codes required, steel may need to have a fire-resistant coating applied.

Normally, steel for trolley crane use has different specifications than plain old I beam support steel. You might be able to have a smaller section of trolley spec beam attached to the main support beam with welded tabs on both and bolts. Obviously, this would need to be engineered and fabbed at the steel shop. Adding tabs creates distance needed for fire resistant framing or spray. The smaller trolley spec steel would be less money than the bigger piece.

Many trolleys use beams with a slope to the flanges. However, not all do and you can get trolleys that will run on a standard wide flange (W) beam. Your engineer will have to take these loads into consideration, but it can be done. Check out OldCarGuy's garage build to see the bridge crane that he built for some ideas on fabricating trolleys and crane systems.

Footing location, rebar and anchors, concrete footings and then steel erection would need a higher degree of precision if you plan to traverse the span with a crane setup. Something to be aware of. You aren't simply making a 3' square footing and hoping to land the steel somewhere in the square.

Yep, you want the beams pretty exactly parallel for a bridge crane. Now, if you just want to run a single trolley along a beam, that's pretty easy.

Odds are that the engineering firms do not normally deal with residential type clients directly. You probably need to work with an architect.

Don't go for the big firms - ACME Worldwide Engineering Corp. - look for the little guy - Joe Acme, PE. I know a handful of local guys, basically just a single guy or a single engineer with a draftsman and possibly a secretary. Most architects aren't going to be able to help you with the structural calculations you need.

 

[bobadame]

Here's a picture of a clear span monitor barn. The short upper walls are trusses.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2544/4033554023_6e624600e2_o.jpg

 

[PetesPonies]

anything happening in this thread?