Moral tool delema...

[kartracer55]

Ok, you guys all know how I try to avoid stan-weee products as much as I can... BUT today I found out I can get any MAC tool (hand tools, no shop equipment) for about 50% off . My friend goes to Votec and they give the discount to the Autorepair students who go to the votec program. What should I do...Its stanley, But on the other hand, is MAC fo half off!!!

I can also get snap on stuff, but full price because he works at STS. *sts doesnt always hire ASE mechanics... hes 17*

What should I do? Is there anything that MAC makes that is a must have?

Jim

 

[krooser]

Still made in Ohio, I presume? Go for it....

 

[kartracer55]

Not everything MAC is made in the USA... some of it is made overseas. Thier air tools are made in Japan (I believe). I just dont like supporting a company with marketing practices such as thiers, however, the CEO of Stanley has changed since the little "incident" with husky, so maybe the values and ethics have as well.

Jim

 

[krooser]

Most air stuff is Jap...not bad...better than Chinese...what's the deal with Husky?

 

[kartracer55]

The short version (as not to bore you) is...

A few years ago husky tools (made by stanley) were being forged in taiwan, then shipped here to be finished and stamped. They were being marked made in USA, but they should have been stamped "taiwan" because so little of the tool was made here. Then the federal trade something or other caught them, and thier tools have been marked taiwan ever since.

They were essentially lying to thier customers, who were buying, what they thought, was a USA made tool. Deseptive, sneaky, not right.

Jim

 

[l_bilyk]

Does that discount apply to matco? I head it does.

Personally I have no qualms about buying tools that are not made in north america (then again Canada doesn't produce that many tools so maybe thats why I don't have a huge bias).

I can understand not purchasing the tool because of their marketing practices. But spending more for USA made tools of equal quality as offshore is just silly.

Having said that, some MAC stuff isn't that great. Their ratchets, for example, are a tad on the weak side. Might as well buy craftsman.

 

[Elroy]

Not everything MAC is made in the USA... some of it is made overseas. Thier air tools are made in Japan...

Mac tools strong point is "body repair" tools. So put your body work repair hat on and think body tools.

Body hammer? maybe a dolly or slide hammer, Oh I got it, how about a SPRAY GUN.

It's your choice to choose where you spend your money and Elroy tries to buy domestic when ever possable.

Buy there is something I would like to point out. Some of the best highest quality air tools made in the world are Japanese and French. Yes the fagot French make Desoutter. A very fine old line, top notch stuff.

for example just look at their die grinders:

http://www.desouttertools.com/

Atlas Copco is another world class leader in air tools as well. Originally based in the "father land"

http://www.atlascopco.com/

Talking about Germany, some of the finest spray guns in world are made right down the road from the brewery. SATA

http://sata.com/DasUnternehmen/SATA-SAGA.jsp

Yep these folks know spray equipment. Just like DeVilbiss. The problem is too many of these manufacturers (Like DeVilbiss) are turning to the cheap labor that China has to offer.

The point to all this drib is you need to get away from "USA only" if you want the finest new tools and equipment availble. Ever see a Toyota (correct industrial spelling is "Toyoda") fork lift work? They're just like a timex they just keep on ticking. Now granted 50 years ago a Clark forklift was the way to go because they were still glowing. Not any more my friend.

The world is growing smaller and to limit yourself to only domestic is cutting the best of the best right out of the picture.

Just my two cent opinion. Would love to hear yours

Elroy / The Kentucky 4 Link

PS: I know the difference between an IEEE and NEMA starter. I wanted to see if you did. I must say you did a fine job. Your only 16? Good for you! I think you have a lot of potential. But IMO you need to have a more open mind. I like made in the USA too but there is a lot of neat imported stuff too. Just like your Speedair filter/regulator. That's made by Norgren and yep made in Mexico as you found out. Ever see any SMC stuff from Japan?

Enought, I gettin off the soap box.

 

[eschoendorff]

Does that discount apply to matco? I head it does.

Personally I have no qualms about buying tools that are not made in north america (then again Canada doesn't produce that many tools so maybe thats why I don't have a huge bias).

I can understand not purchasing the tool because of their marketing practices. But spending more for USA made tools of equal quality as offshore is just silly.

Having said that, some MAC stuff isn't that great. Their ratchets, for example, are a tad on the weak side. Might as well buy craftsman.

I have to agree... I have a 3/8 MAC flex-head and I ALWAYS reach for my Kobalt or Allen ratchets first.

BTW... Jim... I cannot argue with a guy who acts according to principle, but I think that you may be taking this whole Stanley thing a step too far. There are a lot of companies that aren't exactly forthcoming with the public. Stanley just happened to get caught.

I truly believe that every company (Danaher, Snap On, ect...) has some skeleton in its closet. Are you going to deny a [any] quality product because of something that happened in the past?

I gotta say, that as much as I stay away from Stanley products, some of their stuff looks to be rather well-made...

My .02...

 

[Roadster]

Some of the best highest quality air tools made in the world are Japanese and French. Yes the fagot French...

Rumor has it that these guys make some pretty good tools, too...

Franco-Américaine de Construction d'Outillage Mécanique

 

[XR7G428]

It is getting harder and harder to build things that qualify to say made in the USA. I work at Rockford Fosgate, the largest US based car audio company. We "make" all of our amps and woofers in our plants in Arizona and Michigan. We are not able to call them made in the USA because they contain components that come from offshore. To call something made in the USA, it has to be made entirely from USA materials. It is impossible to get all of our parts, made from matrerials that are produced in the USA.

A few years ago the rule was different. You could say made in the USA if the majority of the cost of the product came from the USA. The rule was changed at the request of the Unions. They thought it would cause companies to build more products in the USA. I would GUESS that Stanley got caught up in this mess. Many companies would buy raw materials or partially processed materials off shore and then finish them here. After the rule change, a product would no longer qualify. Since the product has to be labled with a country of origin, they would have to put something else on it, like Taiwan, or Mexico, or what ever. The sad part is that the law has backfired. Now it doesn't make any market ing sense to do anything in the US if you have to label it as being something else. On larger products, Rockford puts Assembled in the USA from Domestic and imported components. No made in the USA label. This also puts us at a disadvantge in europe. We get no credit for what we are doing.

In the future, I am sure that we will just go to a contract manufacturer in Asia and call it good. The product will be just the same, the consumer price will go down, what we do with machines will be done more by hand. Our production people will mostly end up in the warehouse if they chose to stay. Personally, I think that repetitive assembly jobs are a waste of human potential regardless of the location.

My whole point is that the more you learn about the world, the less likely you will be to see things in just one way.

 

[kartracer55]

Mac tools strong point is "body repair" tools. So put your body work repair hat on and think body tools.

Body hammer? maybe a dolly or slide hammer, Oh I got it, how about a SPRAY GUN.

It's your choice to choose where you spend your money and Elroy tries to buy domestic when ever possable.

Buy there is something I would like to point out. Some of the best highest quality air tools made in the world are Japanese and French. Yes the fagot French make Desoutter. A very fine old line, top notch stuff.

for example just look at their die grinders:

http://www.desouttertools.com/

Atlas Copco is another world class leader in air tools as well. Originally based in the "father land"

http://www.atlascopco.com/

Talking about Germany, some of the finest spray guns in world are made right down the road from the brewery. SATA

http://sata.com/DasUnternehmen/SATA-SAGA.jsp

Yep these folks know spray equipment. Just like DeVilbiss. The problem is too many of these manufacturers (Like DeVilbiss) are turning to the cheap labor that China has to offer.

The point to all this drib is you need to get away from "USA only" if you want the finest new tools and equipment availble. Ever see a Toyota (correct industrial spelling is "Toyoda") fork lift work? They're just like a timex they just keep on ticking. Now granted 50 years ago a Clark forklift was the way to go because they were still glowing. Not any more my friend.

The world is growing smaller and to limit yourself to only domestic is cutting the best of the best right out of the picture.

Just my two cent opinion. Would love to hear yours

Elroy / The Kentucky 4 Link

PS: I know the difference between an IEEE and NEMA starter. I wanted to see if you did. I must say you did a fine job. Your only 16? Good for you! I think you have a lot of potential. But IMO you need to have a more open mind. I like made in the USA too but there is a lot of neat imported stuff too. Just like your Speedair filter/regulator. That's made by Norgren and yep made in Mexico as you found out. Ever see any SMC stuff from Japan?

Enought, I gettin off the soap box.

So where does wilkerson fit into the grand scheme of things... ever hold a speedaire and a wilkerson filter side by side, I would have thought they were the ones making speedaire because its so similar. Is wilkerson part of norgren?


I like spending money in the country, because it helps the economy. And yes, I know that some products made overseas are better than ones made here... (you pointed out SATA... thats a HUGE name in paint guns) AIM sport dataloggers (made in italy, better then US made digatrons and alfano gauges) Staedtler Drafting pens/pencils (german made... little tiny works of art) hell, look at ferrari!

I dont like supporting certain countries, mainly china. Politics in general interest me, and I have found out alot of stuff that most people my age dont know about, and dont care about either. Maybe its racist, but alot of asian culture seems to be pretty, primitive? I have come across quite a few things that have led me to believe that china is NOT a friend of the US, and if you think about it, if we keep going at the rate we are going, we will turn into some 3rd world country in a pretty short time. In 2003 pillowtex corp (one of the top 3 US textiles companies) cut 5000 jobs because they couldnt compete with the prices of stuff comming from china. Thats 5000 people who have to find another way to pay the bills. The US has a trade decfit of nealry 60 BILLION dollars. The sad part is this deficit keeps on increasing, and most of it is with china.

Based on what ive read... this is mostly due to the undervalued chinese currency, and this doesnt happen by accident, they are doing this on purpose. It is figured that it is undervaluev by %15-%40, which is why there is a bill for a tarrif (of 27.5%, right in the middle of the estimated trade dificit) on chinese goods in congress, which the majority is in favor of. I can only hope this goes through, because it means you will see more jobs comming back into the US. How do I figure you ask? Well, take any chinese made item you have in front of you and multiply its cost by 27.5%... I bet it can be made here in the US for about the same price. Take a look back in the 40s and 50s... the US was a manufacturing giant, very few countries could compete with us in terms of quality... we have not outsourced because weve lost this quality edge, we have lost this edge BECAUSE we have outsourced. We slowly began loosing the need to produce quality items, and china has begun to gain that ability. It can be argued that unions may be partially to blame for this, but I dont want to open up that can of worms right now.

Ok, now you might think im "over reacting" but do a bit of research and you will find that china has been BUYING equipment to have the worlds largest army(with the money from all the Trading with the US)... this would turn them into an ULTRA Power(the first one). Depending on how much longer this{the army building and the trade decifit} goes on, they will pretty much be able to control us, and tell us what to do. Essentially, we could quite easily become china's *****.

I cant tell you what to buy and not to buy, but I can tell you(and I just did) why I prefer USA made, and especially not chinese made, whenever I can.

Jim

 

[Elroy]

I never said I like Chinese tools. In general they ****! And I agree with what your saying especially in the textile field. Same goes for shoes.

The leaders in China need to remember what America did for them in WW2. And were still standing down the reds in Korean.

But made in Japan tools are typically the highest quality available. That's my only point. I have few others too but they will come later

 

[EdNJ]

Get those Jesse James tools j/k

I agree with l_bilyk,some Mac stuff isn't that great. I'm a dealership tech,we have had two different Mac dealers try to do business with us and don't expect a third to visit us anytime soon. The only big purchase I made from Mac was a crank-turned rotating engine stand.

 

[kartracer55]

I never said I like Chinese tools. In general they ****! And I agree with what your saying especially in the textile field. Same goes for shoes.

The leaders in China need to remember what America did for them in WW2. And were still standing down the reds in Korean.

But made in Japan tools are typically the highest quality available. That's my only point. I have few others too but they will come later

Or how about those clown over in kuwait... thier little liberation wasnt exactly cheap for us... why the hell havent we seen any free oil?

And Ill be the first one ot admit not EVERYTHING That comes form the US is the best, but it def. has the potential if the US had the demand to make high quality goods.

Jim

 

[79rallysport]

Ignorance is bliss.

 

[kgwld1]

I have a vast assortment of diffrent brands.

Mac has been replacing some of my Snap On stuff due to theft. I use this stuff daily. I don't have many problems with Mac. My guy is much easier to deal with then Snap On, so I buy stuff from him.

If you have a good tool vendor they'll bend over backwards to help you out .(come over on weekends,your home, late at night, etc.) but a crappy one won't do anything, thats when I stop giving them my business. Sometimes a tool is just a tool its the service that makes it great.


Matco also does have a votech program that you may buy at reduced cost from.

All these tool suppliers have votech programs that have around a $7500 cap so make sure your buddy gets what he needs first before you buy. $7500 sounds like alot but when you do this for a living $ 15,000 a year is what I sometimes spend to keep up. Your buddy will find this out in the coming years.

Not all the things in there catologs apply to the discount. So check before you order.

Good luck

 

[stioc]

I personally think its great that you're trying to support the manufacturing here but at the rate things are going I don't know how long before the majority of things will be imported. Its just a matter of time when the Chinese quality catches up with the US quality and they're improving under the parent US company's guidance and funding. So we have two options, either we impose some kind of taxing for any imported goods or we find a way to create other types of jobs here and leave manufacturing to where its cheaper.

Lets assume that we stop importing cheaper stuff from China but remember we are not the only importers, a lot of courtries are. So if we don't import cheaper goods and other coutries do how will our economy compare to their's ? Their currency could buy more stuff than ours...and thus will become more powerful.

BTW, we've been importing a lot of stuff from other countries for ages. Where was your kart made for example ? Most famous kart chassis are European. Most famous kart engines are Japanese.

 

[trovato]

A lot of people on this list seem to have strong beliefs on this subject. That's OK, I guess. Part of the list's special "charm". I think it would be useful, though, to differentiate between:

a: I have tried this imported product and it is ****.
b: All products from this particular country are ****.
c: I would only buy American made products.

That way the reader can separate the politics from the product evaluations.

-Steve

 

[kartracer55]

I personally think its great that you're trying to support the manufacturing here but at the rate things are going I don't know how long before the majority of things will be imported. Its just a matter of time when the Chinese quality catches up with the US quality and they're improving under the parent US company's guidance and funding. So we have two options, either we impose some kind of taxing for any imported goods or we find a way to create other types of jobs here and leave manufacturing to where its cheaper.

Lets assume that we stop importing cheaper stuff from China but remember we are not the only importers, a lot of courtries are. So if we don't import cheaper goods and other coutries do how will our economy compare to their's ? Their currency could buy more stuff than ours...and thus will become more powerful.

BTW, we've been importing a lot of stuff from other countries for ages. Where was your kart made for example ? Most famous kart chassis are European. Most famous kart engines are Japanese.

Well the current kart is Italian made... BUT the new kart (should be here by the end of november is USA made... MARGAY 1.25 Limo... more national and international championships than anyother brand. And yeah, I run a yamaha moitor now, but I plan on switching to a parilla Leopard next season, (different class) which is italian made.

Anyway, the "tax" you are tlaking about is the Tariff. I have been folloing it pretty closely. They dont have a "floating" currency... it is totally undervalued and that is why they can make products so cheap... now if we (the USA... chinas largest trade partner) were to put in place the 27.5 % tariff on thier goods, we willr egain market share... I can only hope te rest of congress agrees with me.

Jim

 

[krooser]

The major problem I have in buying foreign made products is spending money on products that ...

1) Many are poorly made....I posted a prior "litanny" of Chinese and Indian stuff that I've paid good money for only to have break in a short time. I'd sooner buy it once and own it forever.

2) I have a problem buying products from the **** because they do not have a free entry economy that allows foreign owned companies to operate in Japan. Name ANY American (or German, French, etc.) company and they do not outright own any manufacturing plants in Japan..it's illegal. Everything has to be (majority) Japanese owned. But they come here and build cars, trucks, lawnmowers, etc everyday. Just make it EVEN and FAIR and I'll consider buying their stuff.

3) China has said, as a matter of National Policy, that America is their #1 enemy and the Communist party is determined to put us out of business AND take over our government. Will it happen? Not if I have anything to say about it. And if you think this is just far right wing banter, look it up on-line! I try not to buy from Osama, either!

4) China uses slave labor TODAY...prisoners, children, peaseants....I don't want my money going to support that system...didn't we learn our lesson 150 years ago?

5) 11 cents an hour, even in India, is a slave wage.

6) NONE of the third world countries practice good environmental practices. They simply dump their sewage, mine tailings, heavy metals onto the ground or directly into the waters. That's one of the reasons they can operate so cheaply. Just because the pollution is 7000 miles away doesn't mean it won't affect us.

7) I have no problem buying from the Aussies, Kiwi's, Brits or other countries. Years ago I actually owned Jap and Korean cars. I owned two Toyota's in the late 60's/early 70's...everybody thought I was nuts!. I bought Ford Aspire roller-skate from a dealer I formerly worked for. I own two Aussie-built Mercury Capri's right now. I've owned an Opel, several MG's and Triumphs...a score of European cars.

I have found that (GASP! and DAMMIT!) Michelin makes the best OTR truck tires I've ever used...there are 18 on my truck right now.

8) I'm remodeling my shop using (mostly) Canadian lumber....no problem with that 'cuz that's about all you find in our area.

9) Jobs are moved offshore for one reason...profits. And profits are necessary for business (I know..I need 'em!). But I personally know of three good sized manufacturing outfits in Wisconsin that were VERY profitable but moved their manufacturing offshore, or to Mexico, for one reason...bigger profits. In one case, the CEO was engineering a sale of the biz and the company was worth more if the profits were just a little higher...the big guy's stock options went through the roof when the sale was announced and he cashed out and retired leaving his workers to retire, or retrain, or go to work at KMart...Oh yeah, some were offered jobs if they would move to Mexico...and work for $2.25 per hour.

10) The Chinese stuff you see peddled everywhere is cheap to buy...and even when sold at bargain basement prices, are overpriced. retailers simply price them a little lower than quality goods and they sell. Profits are incredible. Several years ago I bought a case (12) 4" grinders for less than $3.00 each....sold them for $30.00 each. the money was good...the grinders weren't.



As I end my rant, I've just got to tell you that I've been a trucker MOST of the last 33 years. I'm on loading docks almost everyday. I see the faces of the people who make the products that make this country so successful and so unique. I'm proud of them...I want them to succeed...I want them to know that I believe in them with all of my heart...That's why I buy American...

 

[dink]

Mac tools get for 50% off

Turn around

Sell Mac Tools on ebay

make profit

Turn around

Take money and buy better tools

 

[danski0224]

Carrier recently closed their most profitable division in the USA. That division made engine driven mobile air conditioners. Total number of jobs was over 1000.

They were offered more than $5 million dollars in incentives and tax breaks to stay by local and state goverments.

Carrier still left and went to Mexico.

It isn't just about "profits" to keep the business doors open.

It is greed.

One billion dollars isn't enough anymore, not if more can be made by slashing labor costs.

To hell with the pensions, too.

Trouble is, once the middle class is rendered extinct, who will be spending their money and driving the economic engine in the USA?

 

[l_bilyk]

Here's a question: Is it 50% off list, or 50% off retail?

 

[l_bilyk]

2) I have a problem buying products from the **** because they do not have a free entry economy that allows foreign owned companies to operate in Japan. Name ANY American (or German, French, etc.) company and they do not outright own any manufacturing plants in Japan..it's illegal. Everything has to be (majority) Japanese owned. But they come here and build cars, trucks, lawnmowers, etc everyday. Just make it EVEN and FAIR and I'll consider buying their stuff.

Good point.. but what would be best in this scenario: GM closes plant because they are losing nearly a grand on every car they make. Toyota buys the plant and starts manufacturing camry's. Most north american built camry's are sold in north america. On the downside, a good portion of the profits are going to japan. On the upside, at least the plant didnt close.

 

[kartracer55]

Here's a question: Is it 50% off list, or 50% off retail?

50% off whatver the MAC site says

Jim

 

[iiibdsiil]

I have seldom seen someone that likes the Mac ratchets. Although I believe they make a 0* ratchet, so wherever you stop, you don't have to look for another click. Should be clutch driven or something. That style is awesome when you need it, and I have yet to pick one up. I will one of these days though.

The only Mac ratchet I have, it's a 3/8" drive, but it's small like a 1/4" ratchet. I had it repaired, used it, broke it before the Mac guy left the building. He just gave me a new one and I have had better luck with that one, although I don't use it much after being disappointed like that. I bought it used, broken, for real cheap, and had to wait forever for the Mac guy to come to the shop. So, I never got used to using it.

 

[l_bilyk]

50% off whatver the MAC site says

Jim

Yeah thats list AFAIK
Nobody pays that much
Unless your tool guys hates you

 

[number3]

http://www.thomaslfriedman.com

I just finished this book and it goes in detail why things are made were they are made. If you liek to read I would recommend it.

I own a company that makes primarly saftey parts for different models of Mitsubishi and Neon SRT race cars and I go the extra mile to make sure that not only the labor but the materials are made here in the US of A.

The titanium (6AL-4V) and the stainless steel (304) I buy has "made in the US" stamped all over it. www.three-speed.com

 

[trovato]

The titanium (6AL-4V) and the stainless steel (304) I buy has "made in the US" stamped all over it. www.three-speed.com

Do the guys in China charge extra to stamp that on there?

 

[pl_silverado]

i need a Mac primer gun....any chance you could hook that up if i got you some money.

 

[kartracer55]

i need a Mac primer gun....any chance you could hook that up if i got you some money.

I dont know if it covers that sort of thing, I think its just hand tools strictly. I'll find out for you and let you know though.

Jim

 

[pl_silverado]

I dont know if it covers that sort of thing, I think its just hand tools strictly. I'll find out for you and let you know though.

Jim

Let me know definitly, cause mac makes the best primer gun i have used so far.

 

[kartracer55]

What is the model number?


Jim

 

[pl_silverado]

ill check tomorrow at work.