More adventures in soft water.

[Citation]

Somewhat recently I installed a GE water softener similar/same as this one
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00D5YRZLU/?tag=atomicindus08-20

After waiting 3 weeks for a replacement part and fighting with some initial plumping leaks I have it up and running... I guess. But my water isn't soft and the brine tank is over flowing.

When I started the unit I filled it with 5 bags of salt (about 200lbs). That put my salt level at 7 on the internal scale and the computer said it should last over 3 months. It's been perhaps 2 weeks and I'm down to a salt level of 1.5. At least twice my water level has resulted in water coming out the overflow drain (not that handy as it has to run across my basement floor to the drain in the center of the room (note this is not the normal discharge which goes into a utility sink). So my water level if very high and my water isn't that soft (400ppm per my amazon electronic gauge).

I'm concerned there may be a slow leak where the valve body attaches to the resin tank but I don't see that resulting in so much water in the tank.

Questions:
How high should the water level normally be? I was under the impression it would normally be less than 12" vs about 3'.
The float appears to work. It looks like it only cuts off water when the level is near the top of the tank. Is that right?
Any suggestions what I might need to look at?

 

[JRC3]

My 20 year old DWC water softener head started leaking this week and now I need a new one...... Reviews are "all over the place" and I am so confused on which brand to buy.
I am looking at a Watts brand PWSR model....... Recommended by the local plumbing supply house.

That's probably not too bad of a unit, better than the box store ones...But why not buy a quality Fleck for probably less money? https://www.qualitywaterforless.com/collections/fleck-5600sxt-electronic-meter

Parts will probably be available for decades.

Pentair/Fleck even has YT vids on replacing every and anything as well as setup and problem solving.

 

[Citation]

Since this one is weeks old I don't really want to replace it. I went with a cabinet style due to the limited space in my utility room. After posting the above I found one thing that might be my ticket. When I got this unit I had to pull the valve assembly off the top of the resin bottle. I always noticed a bit of water around the top of the bottle where the cabinet goes around the valve body (it's like the resin bottle sticks through a shelf). It is possible what looked like a small drip was actually more and the excess water was simply draining into the brine tank (that is were the water would go). So I tried reseating the valve assembly. I'm going to see if it is still dry tomorrow and maybe that is my issue. After all this my wife and kids think the hard water tastes better! I may install a "non-filtered" tap in the kitchen for filling water bottles

 

[GoodStuff]

Only 3 possibilities

1. The seals on your GE unit are leaking
2. The float in the salt brine is bad
3. Your water pressure is over 95 lbs

Since your unit is new, I am opting for #3. The softener is only designed for pressures below 100 lbs. install a pressure regulator and restrict your water pressure to 90 lbs or less

I own a residential water treatment company


Sent from my iPhone using Garage Journal

 

[oldmxracer]

Somewhat recently I installed a GE water softener similar/same as this one
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00D5YRZLU/?tag=atomicindus08-20

After waiting 3 weeks for a replacement part and fighting with some initial plumping leaks I have it up and running... I guess. But my water isn't soft and the brine tank is over flowing.

When I started the unit I filled it with 5 bags of salt (about 200lbs). That put my salt level at 7 on the internal scale and the computer said it should last over 3 months. It's been perhaps 2 weeks and I'm down to a salt level of 1.5. At least twice my water level has resulted in water coming out the overflow drain (not that handy as it has to run across my basement floor to the drain in the center of the room (note this is not the normal discharge which goes into a utility sink). So my water level if very high and my water isn't that soft (400ppm per my amazon electronic gauge).

I'm concerned there may be a slow leak where the valve body attaches to the resin tank but I don't see that resulting in so much water in the tank.

Questions:
How high should the water level normally be? I was under the impression it would normally be less than 12" vs about 3'.
The float appears to work. It looks like it only cuts off water when the level is near the top of the tank. Is that right?
Any suggestions what I might need to look at?

You should not see water !

Check proper float level, I had something like this before, when pouring in the salt the black line to the float chamber was pulled down, raising the float way out of specifications in the chamber.

Sucked out all excessive water and programmed to proper hardness, works great now !

 

[dcg9381]

If this goes back,another vote for the Fleck valve (Clack is the only one better and they stopped selling to consumers)

 

[Citation]

Perhaps my fixes worked? I took the float system apart and checked it as well as reseating the o-rings around the resin bottle valve assembly. Net result is no more leaking water. I did this 3 days ago (the evening I posted this) and the water level has since been a steady "3". The numbers on the tube around the brine float go to 8 which is about 29" deep. My current salt level is 1 (it was 6.5 when I first installed this thing, that's about 200lb of salt).

So currently the system doesn't appear to be doing anything odd. However, I still have a concern. My cheap Amazon water tester was saying our water was around 450 ppm before I installed this. Since installation I've seen readings from 350-400 ppm. My understanding is I want to be under 150. I tested some distilled water and the meter read 8 ppm. So I've seen almost no change. Should I suspect the meter (I can get some test strips today)? Would excess water in the brine well (still with visible salt) cause the system to not work well? BTW, I do have the system set to expect hard water.

Thanks for the help!

 

[Citation]

Only 3 possibilities

1. The seals on your GE unit are leaking
2. The float in the salt brine is bad
3. Your water pressure is over 95 lbs

Since your unit is new, I am opting for #3. The softener is only designed for pressures below 100 lbs. install a pressure regulator and restrict your water pressure to 90 lbs or less

I own a residential water treatment company


Sent from my iPhone using Garage Journal

The seals were definitely leaking. At least the seal between the bottle and valve assembly. I think the unit got jostled in shipping. The bottle and valve assembly was rotated so I disconnected the thing to get things sorted out as part of the install. It's quite likely I didn't get the o-rings reseated since I didn't check. Since working on it a few days back it has been dry. I don't know what my water pressure is.

 

[Citation]

OK, once again asking questions. I'm just not sure anything is happening here.

I'm doing a back to back testing of water through the softener vs using the bypass.
I now have two testers, both cheap but they seem to agree within about 10-20 ppm. All the plumbing between the softener and sink is pex. I ran the water for a while before each sample to ensure the lines were purged.

Without softener I was seeing 340-350ppm. With softener I was seeing 350-360. What the hell? I get that softeners take a few regens to start working but I'm several regens in (even considering my earlier leak issues). I'm not seeing anything strange from the machine now. Water levels look normal, no drips from the valve body. It's just that I'm not seeing a change in my water numbers. I know this isn't something stupid like accidentally leaving the valve in bypass because I see the flow meter on the softener working.

What am I missing?!

 

[JRC3]

Have you contacted the manufacturer? How old is the unit?

Also here is about the best test kit you can buy for the money. Easy and accurate. Also reads in grains of hardness and not PPM. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008FM7WLU/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[GeeTeeOhh]

I have a GE water softener that overflowed. I discovered the cheap float had come apart. There was a bouyant piece of styrofoam that came loose from the rest of the assembly, basically did not allow the brine valve to close.

 

[JRC3]

I have a GE water softener that overflowed. I discovered the cheap float had come apart. There was a bouyant piece of styrofoam that came loose from the rest of the assembly, basically did not allow the brine valve to close.

Not sure about a GE but on something like a fleck that float is only a backup in case of overfill. The actual amount of brine fill is dictated by a user set time and a flow restrictor that dictates GPM usually something like 0.25 or 0.5 GPM.

Anyone know for sure if the GE box store type units actually use a float to stop bine fill? And do those units have an air check valve that closes when the liquid brine has depleted, or does the float do that? If it only uses the float valve then the problem might be it continues to draw air for the remainder of the brine draw cycle.

What happens during brine draw, for example, my brine draw cycle is roughly an hour. About 15 minutes of that is it drawing liquid brine until the tank runs dry, then the air check closes and the remainder 45 minutes are it continuing to flush the brine through the resin with regular water. Maybe on the OP's it's drawing air and not properly rinsing the resin with salt.

 

[Citation]

This is a GE unit purchased in January (waited until February to get the replacement brine well). In the last few weeks I've checked the float as well as other parts of the system looking for obstructions or things not working. I don't see any issues. The flow meter shows flow when I expect it. I no longer have issues with water level which I think was due to a poorly seated O-ring around the resin tank. I may try to regen the thing tonight as it might have only had one regen since I finally got all the leaks sorted out.

 

[Citation]

I have a GE water softener that overflowed. I discovered the cheap float had come apart. There was a bouyant piece of styrofoam that came loose from the rest of the assembly, basically did not allow the brine valve to close.

I was wondering about that but I think the float is supposed to have a large range only doing something at the very top or very bottom of the range. This looks like my setup (didn't verify numbers)

 

[Sumboodie]

What sort of water tester do you have?

A TDS tester isn't going to work, it'll measure hard ilor soft water the same


[
QUOTE=Citation;8990744]Perhaps my fixes worked? I took the float system apart and checked it as well as reseating the o-rings around the resin bottle valve assembly. Net result is no more leaking water. I did this 3 days ago (the evening I posted this) and the water level has since been a steady "3". The numbers on the tube around the brine float go to 8 which is about 29" deep. My current salt level is 1 (it was 6.5 when I first installed this thing, that's about 200lb of salt).


.


So currently the system doesn't appear to be doing anything odd. However, I still have a concern. My cheap Amazon water tester was saying our water was around 450 ppm before I installed this. Since installation I've seen readings from 350-400 ppm. My understanding is I want to be under 150. I tested some distilled water and the meter read 8 ppm. So I've seen almost no change. Should I suspect the meter (I can get some test strips today)? Would excess water in the brine well (still with visible salt) cause the system to not work well? BTW, I do have the system set to expect hard water.

Thanks for the help![/QUOTE]

 

[rmanrman]

The tester you are using sounds like a TDS (total dissolved solids) meter
I’ve been using this meter because my well water has a high 550 ppm
This meter does Not tell you the softness/hardness of water
You can buy a proper test kit or like I did sent to a water testing company

 

[rburke65]

I have had 3 GE softeners. The last one was missing parts out of the box. What a f in nightmare.

 

[Citation]

The tester you are using sounds like a TDS (total dissolved solids) meter
I’ve been using this meter because my well water has a high 550 ppm
This meter does Not tell you the softness/hardness of water
You can buy a proper test kit or like I did sent to a water testing company

That could explain things. What should I be looking for in a kit and what was I measuring instead?

JRC3, I did see the kit you suggested as well. Is that better than using test strips?

 

[JRC3]

JRC3, I did see the kit you suggested as well. Is that better than using test strips?

Yep, easy and accurate, no guessing or trying to guess what color means what. Hatch is a laboratory instruments company.

You fill the test tube with water (to measure the right amount only), dump it in another little jar, scoop in one little scoop of powder agent and mix, then drop in drops til the light pink liquid turns dark blue. The number of drops equals grains of hardness.

Basically if the tap water is properly softened the test will turn blue before you even have to use the drops. They give you enough powder to use for probably a hundred plus tests.

The directions are here. https://www.hach.com/total-hardness-test-kit-model-5-b/product-downloads?id=7640219508

 

[dcg9381]

Curious, how "hard" is your water? What does it test out at on a TDS meter?
Prior residence, I was on a well and I started with those consumer grade water softeners. Around here the well water is *really* hard, with a TDS of around 1000. It's hard on plumbing... Softeners do help a lot, but they add all that sodium. For drinking it, we did reverse osmosis (which is great).

The softeners I eventually come up with were on Fleck valves. You can get big tanks and really design a system around your particular water if you're in a situation like I was. Fleck no longer sells to end consumers, and the next best choice if Clack valves.. Totally rebuild able, good product support. You can pick them up reasonably at various wholesalers online.

 

[Citation]

I ordered the kit that JRC3 suggested. I will find out how hard the water is tomorrow. In theory my water should be rather hard. With the TDS meter I got readings between 350 and 500. From that I set my softener to 22. However, since a TDS meter isn't what I need to measure I can't say for certain what I'm dealing with. I'm rather expecting to find that the softener had been working the whole time and my issue was being mislead by Amazon searches into thinking the digital TDS meter was telling me what I needed to know. Fortunately they aren't expensive.

 

[Mike Folks]

"O" rings unless called to be dry, work better work a light film of Silicone Grease, in a pinch,Vaseline will work.also

 

[dcg9381]

'm rather expecting to find that the softener had been working the whole time and my issue was being mislead by Amazon searches into thinking the digital TDS meter was telling me what I needed to know. Fortunately they aren't expensive.

TDS won't change by the softener. You're replacing one dissolved solid with another part of that sodium. You need a different test (as mentioned) for water softness.

TDS can indicate hardness - but it depends on WHAT is dissolved.

 

[Citation]

The JRC3 kit said everything is reasonably OK. Pre-softener the hardness is 19. Post softener I'm 6-7. Not soft but clearly a big improvement. So those who called out my error in using the TDS meter were spot on.

Mike, I did make sure the o-rings were greased (per instructions). I think the leak was because I hadn't verified both o-rings were correctly seated when putting the valve body back on the resin bottle.

Anyway, thanks for the input all, looks like it was a test methods issue in the end (well and a leak)

 

[GoodStuff]

Water softeners should be sized for the application. 19 gpg water is extremely hard and would require a larger unit to be effective. The rating settings on your head specify water hardness so that the computer can regenerate at the proper schedule. You need to set the capacity rating (how many grains your unit can handle), depletion rates (% depletion you want to regen), gpg of your water(19 grains hard is what you specified), regen time desired (usually when you are sleeping - I set all my customers at 2am), and auto regen deviations (regen immediately when the machine meets your % desired, or later that night... vacation settings, and so on).

Also, iron, sulpher, chlorides, tannins, or other items commonly found in well water will drastically affect the settings imputed... I would highly encourage a water professional test your water so you have a solid base to go from.


Sent from my iPhone using Garage Journal

 

[Citation]

Water softeners should be sized for the application. 19 gpg water is extremely hard and would require a larger unit to be effective. The rating settings on your head specify water hardness so that the computer can regenerate at the proper schedule. You need to set the capacity rating (how many grains your unit can handle), depletion rates (% depletion you want to regen), gpg of your water(19 grains hard is what you specified), regen time desired (usually when you are sleeping - I set all my customers at 2am), and auto regen deviations (regen immediately when the machine meets your % desired, or later that night... vacation settings, and so on).

Also, iron, sulpher, chlorides, tannins, or other items commonly found in well water will drastically affect the settings imputed... I would highly encourage a water professional test your water so you have a solid base to go from.


Sent from my iPhone using Garage Journal

I'm on city water. I purchased a ~40,000 grain softener based on both what I could find of Indy's city water hardness and family size. I don't see any issue with the size unit. Based on my TDS meter I had set the softener to 22 grain with the proper test kit I have reduced that a bit to 19. I am using a 2AM automatic regen.

 

[dcg9381]

Water softeners should be sized for the application. 19 gpg water is extremely hard and would require a larger unit to be effective.

Sent from my iPhone using Garage Journal

This. The calculation is extremely important. You shouldn't even buy a softener until you understand the calculation as the size of the softener is directly impacted by hardness of the water.... You can figure out exactly how much salt you're going to go through, when you should regen, etc.

 

[JRC3]

His softener is plenty big enough. Mine is a 32K that I have set to be efficient and run as a 24K, this allows me to use about 20% less salt per gallon of softened water. Sure it uses more raw water, but I'm on a well. My water is 23 grains and sometimes goes a little higher. I get around 800 gallons of water per regin every 9-10 days. Luckily it doesn't see any iron or sulpher because there's a mang-ox filter before it.

Something still doesn't seem right though because he shouldn't be seeing that 6-7 grains on the softened water. I'd regin that softener again and retest. If it continues I'd take it back to the store and purchase a proper Fleck.

 

[Citation]

This. The calculation is extremely important. You shouldn't even buy a softener until you understand the calculation as the size of the softener is directly impacted by hardness of the water.... You can figure out exactly how much salt you're going to go through, when you should regen, etc.

I started by researching Indy municipal water hardness. The numbers were in the upper teens on most websites. I also bought the TDS meter thinking it was the right thing. It suggested a number around 22. Net result is I purchased based on an expected hardness of 22 and my family size. My purchase decision was seriously constrained by my available installation space. That is why I went with a cabinet style and at least in part why I picked the GE vs other options. It was taller and deeper but not wider. Depth was OK since it went right next to a utility sink that was about the same depth. Yes, it does **** when your choices are limited by things other than ultimate performance.

Looking back at my receipts, I have had the system installed for just over a month (installed on Feb 20th). However, I was also having issues with that leak until I started this thread. Thus at best the system has been running for 1 month.

 

[JRC3]

If space is a problem, keep in mind that you can install a brine tank away from the softener itself instead of using a cabinet. Even here in OH I see them in garages all the time and even know of someone who has one in the basement near a garage stairwell and I would say the brine tank is at least 70' away, it's a monster of a house.

 

[Citation]

If space is a problem, keep in mind that you can install a brine tank away from the softener itself instead of using a cabinet. Even here in OH I see them in garages all the time and even know of someone who has one in the basement near a garage stairwell and I would say the brine tank is at least 70' away, it's a monster of a house.

A very remote brine tank might address the issue though the brine tank would have to stay where the current softener is located. Regrettably this very limited space has to do many duties thus footprint was a big deal. The reviews for this model were very strong so hopefully it will prove worthy in the end.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

My 20 year old DWC water softener head started leaking this week and now I need a new one...... Watching!