More power scotty!

[purplepeopleeater]

Okay, been lurking here and reading some posts about adding additional circuts for an attached garage...I've been reading different forums and such and get different ways so thought i'd post my specific needs and get your opinion.

Here is what I need power wise...

120v 4amps for 15 lights
240v 21amps for heater
240v 15amp air compressor
115v 15amp window a/c

Also plan on getting a 220v welder soon

this isn't including my electrical outlets...I have a Lincoln 115 mig welder thats on a cart so I need to be able to plug it in without throwing everything else...so probably put my outlets on a 20amp break.

Here is whats in my garage already (its feeding the house)

I would like to have an outlet to plug our coach in (50amp) but this isn't a deal breaker at this time...

200amp panel

No disconnect meehhh.

Going to the house I have

Furnace (heat pump)
A/C
Range
Dryer
water heater
lighting and electrical outlets for each room

I can run some duplex breakers on the lighting and electrical stuff to free up some breakers BUT aren't I overloading my 200amp box? especially if I add the RV outlet.

 

[mrb]

you dont have any main overcurrent protection, i wouldnt go adding loads until I rectified that.

 

[purplepeopleeater]

I have one labeled "Main Sub"

 

[JBurgess]

you dont have any main overcurrent protection, i wouldnt go adding loads until I rectified that.

It's a split buss panel. Third breaker down on the left feeds the lower part of the panel, the top 6 breakers are the mains "six throw rule". Don't remember which year they disalowed those. You can sort of see the wires go down to the botttom to feed the lower buss.

If you are adding a sub panel it should feed from where one of the top 6 breakers are. Perhaps the the third one on the right (looks like smaller wires)and relocate that circut to the new subpanel.

 

[purplepeopleeater]

It's a split buss panel. Third breaker down on the left feeds the lower part of the panel, the top 6 breakers are the mains "six throw rule". Don't remember which year they disalowed those. You can sort of see the wires go down to the botttom to feed the lower buss.

If you are adding a sub panel it should feed from where one of the top 6 breakers are. Perhaps the the third one on the right (looks like smaller wires)and relocate that circut to the new subpanel.

That one is the waterheater, So I move that circut to the new subpanel isn't the old panel sharing the load of the new one ?

I did something like this 10yrs ago not sure why im so confused now

 

[JBurgess]

Yes the old panel is sharing the load. Your old panel is really two panels, a main with the top 6 breakers and a subpanel with the rest. My piont was to feed a new subpanel from the main portion of your old panel not the subpanel portion.

You would still be limited to 200 amps and should do a load calc to make shure you do not exceed it.

The other choice would be to upgrade to a bigger service.

 

[purplepeopleeater]

Good info, I will do a load calc....PITA!

 

[mrb]

It's a split buss panel. Third breaker down on the left feeds the lower part of the panel, the top 6 breakers are the mains "six throw rule". Don't remember which year they disalowed those. You can sort of see the wires go down to the botttom to feed the lower buss.

If you are adding a sub panel it should feed from where one of the top 6 breakers are. Perhaps the the third one on the right (looks like smaller wires)and relocate that circut to the new subpanel.

thats right, i didnt notice that. I would still be leery of adding alot of load to the setup. That 200a service looks to be close to capacity with all the electric appliance and heating loads...

 

[purplepeopleeater]

Well, looks like i'm at 192.890625 amps.

At my max on this box from the looks of those sad numbers...WTF!

 

[JBurgess]

The best solution is a larger service, however some utilities won’t always allow larger than 200A residential at the same tariff or the cost may be prohibitive.

I am assuming you accounted for non-concurrent loads (you won’t use baseboard heaters at the same time as the air conditioner)

As a workaround you could look at load controller to make more of your loads non-concurrent such as not letting the water heater turn on when the air conditioner is running to free up some capacity.

 

[purplepeopleeater]

Nothing larger then 200 can be added, I think i'll add another panel next to this one and free up one of the 6 circuts to feed new panel.

I'll never have EVERYTHING running at the same time 99% of the time, just gotta make sure wifey doesn't rev up the dryer and stove at the sametime when i'm out in the garage.

 

[comedyman809]

192 amps running at one time on your house...i doubt youll ever pull anwhere near that amount at one time. no way.

that would mean, that every tv is on, with ever light, with the a/c and refrigerators compressor starting up at the exact same time, all fans, heating systems, any power tools running, and blow dryer turned on along with the microwave cooking, and oven and blender...etc.....and it would have to be all at the exact same time. hot tub? pool heater? machinery? 192 at once...no way..

maybe 50 at once tops. maybe a little more.

 

[purplepeopleeater]

Long story short, I ended up replacing the whole panel....I found some hidden breakers that had leads doubled up on them and another one wire nutted together, and to make it even better I found a junction box that someone put an electrical outlet on and the sides of the box where HOT! I'm glad my wife hadn't touched the sides of it, earlier this week she plugged the baby monitor in it while working outside.


I also found that my old panel wasn't even connected to the grounding rod.


So screw it, replace everything.

 

[mrb]

i hope you pulled a permit and are having this inspected. Whats the deal with the clamp in the bottom of the panel? And do the conductors just pass through the wall?

 

[Aceman]

Is that THHN running from the back of the meterbase, bare with no conduit in the wall into an SE cable connector that's installed backwards(inside out) in your new panel?

 

[comedyman809]

is that an LB coming into the top of the panel?? something does not look right.

for safety's sake, you may want to get this inspected.

 

[neverenoughtools]

It does indeed look odd!!!

 

[DURAMAT]

That dont look right. looks like THHN coming in and not SCR cable. I dont see a ground coming in with them same conductors as there should be. That clamp is on the inside of the box and shouldnt be. I can see the screw holes for a ground bus that isnt installed. ID have that inspected

 

[DURAMAT]

ground rod should be connected at the at the Meter main and only there should the ground and Neutral should be bonded together. never again after that. You have grounds and and nuetrals sharing and thats a no no

 

[DURAMAT]

Ground and neutral are to be bonded at the first means disconect. Generally that is at the meter main disconnect.

 

[JBurgess]

There are also breakers that apear to be more than 6' 7" from the floor.

 

[DURAMAT]

I still question that install job

 

[JBurgess]

One of the purposes of pointing out deficiencies is so other users looking at the photos do not repeat the same mistakes.

I may not know how tall the panel is, but I can see in the photo is about a foot from the ceiling. Unless his garage is very short, that would put the top breakers to far from the floor.

Is it a hazard? Probably not. But chances are good an inspector would fail it for that.

Hopefully another member will not make the same mistake by raising the issue.

 

[Aceman]

His major mistake?

Putting this up for review from people he doesn't even know...asking questions on his part was a good idea, but putting the finished work up so people could tear it apart was wrong. There's always someone who'll find fault with anything we do, I don't care who you are or how good you are at your job.

You really think his biggest mistake was posting this on a forum? Seriously? Worst case=Maybe hurt feelings, but he'll know better next time.

I'd say his biggest mistake was not asking enough questions before jumping into a diy service change. Worst case=I don't know, maybe fire?

 

[Aceman]

An example is that SE cable connector that's inside out. It's not sitting flat in the panel and doesn't even seem to have a locknut on it. I'll bet those bare THHN wires are touching or are very close to rubbing against the knockout opening. If unfused service entrance wiring rubbing against an unbushed hole doesn't scare you....

 

[Norcal]

NEC section 404.8(A) requires that the the handle of circuit breakers be no higher then 6'7" above the floor or platform.

The service entrance conductors are unfused between the transformer and the service disconnect*, which means one needs to know what they are doing + know pertinent codes in order to end up w/ a safe & reliable installation.
The SE conductors need to be in conduit or part of SE cable assembly. If the box had been lowered a bit a 2" KO could have been punched to bring the SE conductors from the back of the meter can into the panel.

There are other issues w/ grounding / bonding but going to leave off for now.

* If a fault occurs it's not likely to stop until the conductors burns through.

 

[DURAMAT]

My intent is not to offend nor insult. On one hand you have a guy who's anxious and proud of the work he's doing and that he's doing it himself. Kuddos for that and I get that and repsect that. On the other hand, others like myself do this for a proffesion and would hate to see someones hard efforts inadvertantly kill, injure or burn down property due to lack of knowledge of the trade. I'm all for throwing out suggestions for helping, any percieved neg remarks on my end is soley out of concern, I've had to fix a few projects and have wondered How it didn't burn down

My appogies