Morse Taper vs R8

[pi_guy]

This is pointed towards 3 in 1 and small mills.
Everybody seems to have the opinion that there is more tooling with R8 than anything else, I had the same view. But in small world what is there that is not available in straight shank and fit morse taper #3.

I want to list what I have found for tooling and please suggest what have I missed.
ball end mills
dove tail cutters
T-slot cutters
Face mills up to 3 inches
Fly cutter
boring head

I have an angle plate, indexing unit with 5C collets, a right angle collet holder, numerous vises and on the want list is a 8 inch rotary table with 3mt in center

 

[larry_g]

If your looking at straight shanked tooling that fits in a collet not much. The shank doesn't care what the outside of the collet looks like. The R-8 is near self releasing and the MT3 is a locking taper so removing the tooling is harder. If your wanting to tool up a new machine then the used market is perty barren of MT tooling tapped with a drawbar hole.

Do you have a mill with MT3 already or looking to buy?
lg
no neat sig line

 

[pi_guy]

I purchased a Enco 3 in 1.
It is not for production the use is fabrication of spacers or resizing them or resurface a face. Or for in house fabrication I have a list of things to build and modify.
I have space constraints and need to be able to do a minimum amount of stuff on gearboxes.

But my purpose in the question is there any tooling that only fits R8 that would be useful to have. Or better yet is there any tooling that you would suggest that you have in the inventory that is good for this function?
I drew up my list from things I have used through the years at shops and the bulk of the stuff was found in my friends race shop when I used it there.

 

[pi_guy]

I forgot to mention corner radius cutters.
And saw slitters or cutters but never had any use.

But I am not trying to bash R8 I have about 100lbs of the stuff. Just trying to generate some other information and suggestions so I can cover anything that comes in.

 

[larry_g]

Your confusing me here,

I want to list what I have found for tooling and please suggest what have I missed.
ball end mills
dove tail cutters
T-slot cutters
Face mills up to 3 inches
Fly cutter

The stuff you have listed above has nothing to do with your spindle taper... Your collet whether R8 or MT3 will hold the above tooling. The only tooling you will see a difference in is that with integrated shanks that are tapered R8 or Mt3. The taper on the collet is for interfacing with the spindle of your machine, not the tool it is holding.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[pi_guy]

That has been my question.
Is there any other tooling as I have found all those listed to be adaptable to MT3.

That was my original question is there anything in tooling that will only fit or work with R8 and not have a method for MT3.

I was not asking the advantages of R8 over MT.

I have read several times on GJ there is more available tooling in R8 than MT and I am questioning that statement.

 

[nine4gmc]

In for info!

 

[larry_g]

After reading your other thread and understanding where in the curve you are with machining I would say that MT3 will serve you for a long while. There are some tools that you cannot use on a small mill that are probably only available in R8 like a 90* horizontal drive. One thing is that in the used market has R8 is more plentifully. If you outgrow the mini mill and up size then your next mill will likely have R8 that your old tooling will stay with you. I remember when starting machining that figuring out collets, what they fit, all the variations, and tapers and how confusing it all was.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[pi_guy]

I have a 100lbs of R8 tooling came from my full sized mill. Got screwed by partner and machines were sold. So I am not a complete newbie at this, I have been using millers and lathes in various shops since the 70's.
But you find in small shop operators tend to go for the same tool once place thought the solution was a 3 inch end mill an other shop always went for small cutter claimed a better finish. But heard through the grapevine he had a issue with a big cutter and flying parts.
So often in small shops you learn work around, based on budget or personal preference. I work with a number of different people and provide tech services racing related. Acquiring a Hewland gearbox and parts business required me to have basic mill and lathe services, surface grinder is next right after PRI.
The crux of my question was what am I not able to do with MT3 that I could do with R8, which seems to be as I suspected not much. Unless you get into bigger machines.

But I suspect if this works out and functions as needed my next machine will not have R8 it will be one of the CNC type toolholders.

 

[pi_guy]

Shot with drawers open making a point of what you could not do to a husky box.
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=6142449#post6142449

The drawers are overloaded rated for 250 but there is close to 3 or 400 lbs in each one.

But here is a shot of unit there is heavy tooling on bottom so I can open heavy drawers and not have it tip

 

[txvwnut]

What I really remember from having my first 3in1 machine was that the MT tooling was a little more expensive than R8 and sometimes took longer to get as most the vendors I used sometimes didn't have it in stock. The second thing I found out was there was limited collets for the MT quill so I had to get a collet chuck which then decreased the quill to table distance not to mention the cost of a collet chuck and collet set versus a set of R8 collets. I use a lot of 3/4" shank cutters for my engine work and I could never find a 3/4" collet or they aren't available for the MT quill it's been so long ago I can't remember which.

I used my 3in1 for many years until I bought one with R8 tooling and sold the MT one. The reason for the switch was to have all tooling that I could use on a knee mill when I purchased one. Which my wife bought me for Christmas three years ago.

Since you seem to have a background around milling machines and operations you will find your way around the great MT R8 debate and get great use out of your machine and figure out either making or purchasing what tooling you need.

One thing I have been seeing lately is there seems to be a little decline in MT3 tooling. Maybe it's just me but when I'm looking for stuff for my lathe I'm finding more MT2 stuff than MT3.

I don't know if you looked a Smithy before you the Enco, which is a dead ringer for a Smithy 1220XL, but they have a 3in1 that has a R8 quill.

 

[pi_guy]

Very much so on MT tooling being scarce. But people that have it are willing to deal I paid half price for a set of MT3 tool holders and the set had 2 3/4 tool holder and no 5/8. But the next day out at Sag supply used equipment dealer I bought other new set at 1/2 price that had the 5/8 but the 3/16 holder was tapped for 1/2 MT3 is 3/8 draw bar thread.
And they have no used MT3 milling tooling there.

So yes the hidden part of my question was is MT tooling going away which it seems it is but there are niche people like victornet.com that serve it. They have a 4 jaw 4 inch chuck for 79 dollars.

victornet.com has lots of mini tooling
travers.com has lots of stuff better pricing the MSC even better if you walk in.

 

[leg17]

As txvwnut stated, MT tooling is usually directly mounted on the shank.
If you plan on mostly using a collet, the R8 might be a better choice.

 

[pi_guy]

As txvwnut stated, MT tooling is usually directly mounted on the shank.
If you plan on mostly using a collet, the R8 might be a better choice.

I have collets and tool holders from 3/16 to 3/4.
The issue I see is wanting a 1 inch tool holder but not sure machine could drive that big of tooling.

 

[manwithtools]

You need to move to R8 now, because the day will come very soon when the 3-n-1 machine will be replaced by dedicated tools (lathe and mill). That way all your tooling will be transferable to the bigger machines. I've been there and done that. I specifically bought a mini-mill that had R8 collet capacity because I knew bigger machines were in my future.

 

[wkndwarrior29]

What I really remember from having my first 3in1 machine was that the MT tooling was a little more expensive than R8 and sometimes took longer to get as most the vendors I used sometimes didn't have it in stock. The second thing I found out was there was limited collets for the MT quill so I had to get a collet chuck which then decreased the quill to table distance not to mention the cost of a collet chuck and collet set versus a set of R8 collets. I use a lot of 3/4" shank cutters for my engine work and I could never find a 3/4" collet or they aren't available for the MT quill it's been so long ago I can't remember which.

+1 I have an old smithy with MT3 and went with a collet Chuck to compensate for the difficulty in finding tooling threaded for the drawbar. I have found the reduced head space frustrating.

 

[nine4gmc]

So I just bought a Bridgeport M Head with MT2 taper spindle, did I make a mistake? I haven't found any tooling(that I'm aware of) that can't be bought for it besides LARGE end mills but on a smaller machine like that, I don't think I would be using large tooling and I will most likely never have a place for a larger mill.

 

[manwithtools]

So I just bought a Bridgeport M Head with MT2 taper spindle, did I make a mistake? I haven't found any tooling(that I'm aware of) that can't be bought for it besides LARGE end mills but on a smaller machine like that, I don't think I would be using large tooling and I will most likely never have a place for a larger mill.

Being that is a Bridgeport, I bet you can get a replacement spindle cartridge that will accept R8. I'd do that sooner rather than later if it's economically viable.

 

[nine4gmc]

Being that is a Bridgeport, I bet you can get a replacement spindle cartridge that will accept R8. I'd do that sooner rather than later if it's economically viable.

From what I have gathered so far, that is not an option. I think I would need to buy an R8 J Head and replace my M Head but it's not worth it to me if I can do everything I need to do with the MT2.

 

[pi_guy]

So I just bought a Bridgeport M Head with MT2 taper spindle, did I make a mistake? I haven't found any tooling(that I'm aware of) that can't be bought for it besides LARGE end mills but on a smaller machine like that, I don't think I would be using large tooling and I will most likely never have a place for a larger mill.

This was the point of the thread. There does not seem to be any thing that can only be done with a R8 collet on a small or 3in1 style mill.
I think I might have some MT2 stuff if I can not find an adapter I might be interested in getting rid of it.

The advantages of R8 is availability and reduced cost in used items. There is no wonder tool that you must have. Lathe still use MT and rotary tables have MT holes in center it not like having Brown & Sharpe ones.

 

[pi_guy]

+1 I have an old smithy with MT3 and went with a collet Chuck to compensate for the difficulty in finding tooling threaded for the drawbar. I have found the reduced head space frustrating.

victornet.com
&
sag supply in Central Islip NY

 

[nine4gmc]

In the case of can't find the right draw bar size tooling, is it possible to just make a different size draw bar? I have not got the Bridgeport yet(freight now) so I have not had a chance to check it out but it has a 7/16 iirc draw bar and my lathe with MT2 has a 3/8 draw bar, I planned to make different draw bars for different tooling to work on either machine.

 

[larry_g]

In the case of can't find the right draw bar size tooling, is it possible to just make a different size draw bar? I have not got the Bridgeport yet(freight now) so I have not had a chance to check it out but it has a 7/16 iirc draw bar and my lathe with MT2 has a 3/8 draw bar, I planned to make different draw bars for different tooling to work on either machine.

It is entirely possible to have different drawbars to fit the threads of different tools that fit the taper of your spindle. However most tapers have a standard thread size.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[454ragtop]

I have a 100lbs of R8 tooling came from my full sized mill. Got screwed by partner and machines were sold. So I am not a complete newbie at this, I have been using millers and lathes in various shops since the 70's.
But you find in small shop operators tend to go for the same tool once place thought the solution was a 3 inch end mill an other shop always went for small cutter claimed a better finish. But heard through the grapevine he had a issue with a big cutter and flying parts.
So often in small shops you learn work around, based on budget or personal preference. I work with a number of different people and provide tech services racing related. Acquiring a Hewland gearbox and parts business required me to have basic mill and lathe services, surface grinder is next right after PRI.
The crux of my question was what am I not able to do with MT3 that I could do with R8, which seems to be as I suspected not much. Unless you get into bigger machines.

But I suspect if this works out and functions as needed my next machine will not have R8 it will be one of the CNC type toolholders.

Seems strange you wouldn't get a machine with R8 if you already had 100 lbs. of R8 tooling.

 

[pi_guy]

Seems strange you wouldn't get a machine with R8 if you already had 100 lbs. of R8 tooling.

Why
& 100 lbs of machine tooling is not that much.
But you tell me how a 3 inch hogging end mill in R8 is going to be much good on this machine. I think I have a 6 inch boring head on R8 shank weighs a few pounds but pretty useless.

The reason I started this question was every body comments you must have R8 or it is no good. Bottom line is if you have the right tool you can perform the function, if on MT, Brown & Sharpe or R8

 

[pi_guy]

If you need the best tool to do your best job, you're not the best at your job.

I do not know if I agree with your statement.

The quality of your output is better with tools of quality.
I can think of three examples where in my case I turn out a better job and it is less work.
Miller welders, proper deutche circular crimping pliers with dies $600 and Snap On tools.

 

[justanengineer]

Many hobbyists get caught up in buying specific taper tooling but in reality most machinists simply use straight shank tools in either a collet or endmill holder. MT vs R8, theyre both going to be on a spaghetti machine regardless so no real need to use direct spindle mount tooling for things like boring heads, drill chucks, or slitting saws. So long as youve got a few common collet sizes youre set.

Disclaimer: I use a LOT of MT drills on the mill and lathe bc 1. I buy them dirt cheap and 2. I've got them in most sizes tiny to 2"+.

 

[ptschram]

So often in small shops you learn work around, based on budget or personal preference.

Engineering is the management of compromise

The crux of my question was what am I not able to do with MT3 that I could do with R8, which seems to be as I suspected not much. Unless you get into bigger machines.

I suspect you are probably correct with this statement. For moderate size tooling, I see no reason not to use R-8. I for some reason have a perception that the drive pin has a significant advantage, but I also realize that if it is doing anything, I probably have something else wrong.

I think that there is a negative perception of Morse taper toolholders as well, probably because they are usually associated with smaller lower quality machines.

 

[pi_guy]

Engineering is the management of compromise

In my world engineering is the act of doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

 

[zkling]

First off, R8 is a more rigid retaining method of mill cutter holding than MT2. More contact surface, larger diameter. Period.

Now within MT2, and I think this is where the confusion happens, there are two distinct types, self holding (tang or not) and draw bar retained (milling machine applications). The self holding should not be used directly on the spindle of a mill as they are designed for axial loads only. These are commonly used in drill presses, lathe tail stocks, where axial only loads will be applied.

MT2 mills are really only good to about 1/2" diameter end mills. A 3" END MILL A 2" face mill is about the largest you want to run on a smaller knee mill, 3" face mill is pushing it. Now there are those special cases, material, work holding, etc that bend these rules, but... If you have to ask....

When people talk about lack of MT2 tooling they are talking about mill tooling, collets and the like. As mentioned all you really need is a collet set, a 1/2" drill chuck and a boring head and you can hold everything the machine is capable of, again 1/2" diameter end mill max, fly cutters. R8 is common and cheap. It is a compromise of rigidity and tooling cost. Slowly it will be phased out as manual machines become set aside.

As cnc become more prevalent, especially on knee mills, R8 started to show it's limitations, especially when you are programming tool offset height. While they do make E series collet holders and end mill holders that fit directly into the R8 spindle, they do not go into the spindle, but more so overhang reducing rigidity.

My baby clausing mill has a MT2 spindle, large clausing is a 30 taper. There is a huge difference in rigidity.

 

[pi_guy]

I doubt manual machines will be set aside. There is too much need in repair and simple part building that doing the CAD for would be more of a waste of time.

I read you came to the same conclusion that there is nothing in the MT3 or MT2 size that if you had the collets or tool holders you could not do. There is nothing R8 specific in this size of machine.

Spent an hour talking to MSC machinery guy at PRI. that was interesting

 

[zkling]

After talking with pretty much every manual machine tool builder this past summer, manual machine tools are on the way out. And while speciality, repair/maintenance and educational are their primary business, as conversational controls become more and more intuitive, even the die hard manual guys are switching over. A GOOD CNC operator can do anything a manual can do, and more just as fast and usually faster. The hold up being the operator knows the control very well.

Very few places couldn't benefit from at least a 2axis CNC mill. In the grand scheme CNC is actually cheaper when you factor in all that the controller replaces. Rotary tables, dividing heads, tracers, etc are being accounted for via programming.

Even then, the nicer manual mills these days are going away from R8.

 

[pi_guy]

On manual machines.
I was at Travers yesterday and run into a 2nd generation machine shop owner that I have know for 40 years. We talked about everything going CNC- automated. Even if the companies drop manual there will be enough used manual for two life times. I still see machines with USN serial numbers
I have been pushing CAD and computerized management solutions since the 80's.
The feeling is on proto type that is not designed in CAD most are started on dinner napkins going manual for one or 2 parts makes more sense.
If you have do a CNC setup to drill bushing I think the time to do the setup would take longer than drilling 4 bushing and cutting them off.
I spent much of my employment working for small companies and they were not likely to spend 100k for a machine when one under 10k with a bit more intuition would work as well.
As we know all opinions vary.....

 

[pstemari]

.. for some reason have a perception that the drive pin has a significant advantage, but I also realize that if it is doing anything, I probably have something else wrong....

Yes and no. The pin provides a bit more torque before the collet slips, but true MT tooling has a tang that is considerably stronger. If you've got an MT that takes a drawbar, then the socket for the tang is probably missing.

Newer machines have shorter tapers with driver dogs, e.g. CAT40 and BT40, that can be used with automatic tool changers.

 

[justanengineer]

Yes and no. The pin provides a bit more torque before the collet slips, but true MT tooling has a tang that is considerably stronger. If you've got an MT that takes a drawbar, then the socket for the tang is probably missing.

Newer machines have shorter tapers with driver dogs, e.g. CAT40 and BT40, that can be used with automatic tool changers.

Incorrect on several points. The pin and keyway common on R8 machines and tools are for indexing the tool, not to provide driving torque. Most machinists remove the pin from the machine as cheap insurance, if the tool slips and shears the pin it commonly scores up the spindle and jams tooling within the spindle. MT tangs are similar, they only exist for ejecting the tool from the spindle, the taper is what actually prevents rotation and why they need to be firmly seated. We had a guy at work that just jammed tapers in by hand, fine for MT2 but not MT5, he twisted the tang off a 3"'ish drill in a radial.

The NMTB short tapers are actually older than R8 by about a decade, R8 being a late 30s Bridgeport development vs the 20s for the National Machine Tool Builders standards.

 

[pstemari]

Incorrect on several points. The pin and keyway common on R8 machines and tools are for indexing the tool, not to provide driving torque. ... MT tangs are similar, they only exist for ejecting the tool from the spindle, the taper is what actually prevents rotation and why they need to be firmly seated.

Not sure what you mean by "indexing the tool". The pin indexes the collet, but you're right, it doesn't provide much in the way of torque, other than helping to keep the collet from spinning when you tighten the drawbar.

Machinery's specifically classifies the Morse taper as a tang drive with friction retention. I certainly agree that poorly installed tools are going to break. Regardless, a properly installed Morse taper tool is going to give more torque than a tool in an R8 collet or even a tool with an R8 shank.

The NMTB short tapers are actually older than R8 by about a decade, R8 being a late 30s Bridgeport development vs the 20s for the National Machine Tool Builders standards.

My point was that new CNC machines exclusively use the short tapers. R8 is fading away from everything but hobbyist machines

 

[pi_guy]

Used my morse taper tooling today.
I bought an aluminum pallet was going to build one but the price was hard to beat.
So I have been machining al angle so it will retain my bandsaw, press and surface grinder.
The surface grinder will be bolted to stand and stand will be attached tp pallet with machined blocks. I am using nutcerts in the pallet to hold the machined angle in place.
Since there is no real travel involved the press and band saw are just retained from sliding