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Most Efficient Heat...

WolverineCoatings

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Oct 22, 2007
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833
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Spartanburg, SC
Hi Guys,

I've got a question that I'd be surprised if it had never been asked before. I've looked a bit in here and did not find it.

In a garage remodel... what is the most efficient way to heat? AND WHY??? I've got a 1500 ft2 area to heat... I'm really interested in learning about this and am open to just about any solution... including solar of some type.
 
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JCByrd24

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Jul 21, 2005
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Bath, ME
That's kind of a loaded question. Do you mean most efficient from supplier to you, just from delivered energy to you, or actually most cost effective for you. For example, electric resistance heat (space heater, electric baseboard) is 100% efficient for the end user. 1kw of electricity bought = 1kw heat received. How you get the electricity (wind, hydro, coal, nuclear, gas turbine) adds a lot of complexity to the "efficiency equation", but in the end the cost to the end user is usually more than a fossil fuel.

Heat pumps (i.e. reverse air conditioner) I believe are fairly efficient given the right temperature differences. In SC you could do alright with one and a lot of units would give you cooling in the summer.

In my opinion, geothermal heat pumps are the best overall solution at this point...I just discovered them a few days ago myself...unfortunately not worth the install cost for a garage alone. They are roughly 400% efficient (if you start counting at your electrical meter). For every kW of electricity you burn you get roughly 4 kW of heating (or cooling). Right now between 1/2 and 1/3 the operating cost of fossil fuel heating. Instead of using outside air to dump/gain heat, the exchanger is run in the ground, where temperatures remain relatively constant all year, 45-55 degrees. This allows them to be used in much colder climates than an air to air heatpump, and also run much more efficiently. I predict they will take over the HVAC market in under 5 years.
 

rickairmedic

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louisville ,Ky
I will give the same answer I give all the time :D Hybrid heat . Heat Pump with gas or LP backup heat instead of electric backup if its over 35 * outside the heat pump provides your heat under 35* the fossil fuel furnace provides the heat PLUUUUUS you'll have AC in the summer :D.

Rick
 

daddylama

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Portland, OR
i've found that a sweater and an extra helping or two at dinner is pretty efficient at keeping me warm...

i was working in the shop last night... 41f inside... didn't even feel chilly.


as far as efficient and cost-effective heating, we're goin' with solar hydronic. solar heat collectors, heating a 500+ gallon heat storage tank, pumped to radiators (or subfloor)...
natural gas tankless water heater backup for the radiant, a biodiesel furnace forced air backup heat source, and just so we can really hedge our bets- a soapstone, granite and brick contraflow wood stove.
the only reason all the above is cost effective: doin' it all myself, with cheaply sourced materials.
 

larry4406

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Northern Virginia
I went with a 90 plus propane furnance and traditional a/c (natural gas not an option where I live). I am leaving space for a water to air coil should I ever put in a wood hydronic furnace or solar panels. Radiant heat was cost prohibitive for tubing, insulation, and heat source and then still no a/c. I plan to set the t-stat at about 50F in the winter and bump it up if I need to while I am in there. My heating contractors told me that heat pumps would take for ever to recover should the garage doors get opened. I am located in northern VA.
 

Alcohol

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Sep 26, 2007
Messages
92
I have a 93% Trane Natural gas furnace,85,000BTU in a 30x40 with 8 foot ceilings. Always have t-stat at 68*F,,,,Largest gas bill in 7 yrs was 45.00 a month....
 

HoosierBuddy

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Southern Indiana
If by "most efficient" you mean cheapest, I'll go with this:

Don't heat it unless you are in there.

When you are in there heat it with a small vented gas heater unit heater.

You can solar all you want...the fact is it is not "necessary" to heat a garage 24-7 and spending a TON of money for a system capable of heating a garage would be cost prohibitive when compared to the benefit created. If you had that kind of money to invest in a solar system, you'd be much better off using the system as the primary water heating source for your home, and then use a fraction of the energy you would save to heat your garage for the few hours you want to work in it during the dead of winter. It doesn't take much energy to heat a well insulated garage up to 55 degrees for the weekend. What takes a lot of energy is to heat it to 55 degrees all winter long...and that's a waste.

That being said...I heat my garage most of the winter...because I'm not looking for cheapest. I'm looking for best.

Hydronic in floor radiant on a cold winter day...Heavenly.

Phil
 
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WolverineCoatings

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Spartanburg, SC
Thanks Guys,

This is kind of interesting. It's going to take me some time to research some of these suggestions. I already knew about the heat pump with gas for <35f.

I had never heard of the Geothermal Heat. It sounds really cool. I never could really figure out how much it really costs to operate as compared to something I know like conventional heat. I also could not figure out how much it costs to install.

That's also the first time I've heard about the 'personal' turbine. I wonder how much one of those things would cost and what the payback would be?

I'm also a fan of the extra helping at dinner... mmmm

Kinda surprised no one said: :beer:

Last, what is hydronic heating?

Again guys... thanks... I love to learn about new stuff... which leads me to ask another question. What do you do if you want the radiant heating in the floor but it is an existing floor?
 

V-10 Killer

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Midland, MI
I interperet "efficient" a little different than a lot of people.
I assume you're talking about BTU's per dollar spent.
The most efficinet system would use minimal changes of types of energy from start to finish.
Example 1.
Start with a fuel. Energy company converts it from chemical energy to heat, then to mechanical energy, then to rotational energy, then to electricity, then to you to run whatever heating system you want. There is a loss in efficiency in each step, thus the higher cost of electricity over liquid/gaseous fuels.

Example 2.
Start with a fuel. Burn it in your furnace and convert it directly to heat.

When all's said and done, I would say the best system would be the best insulated one :thumbup:
 

Bull

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MA
I've been doing some reading and asking a lot of questions about electric infrared heaters. You can get smaller 120v units, or industrial monsters that will tackle much larger spaces. I'm still learning, but the idea appears to be to locate them strategically (different sized units will heat a different sized square of territory) so that your most heavily used areas are heated. You can turn them on/off depending on what part of the garage you are in, and they are inexpensive to run (36 cents an hour for one that will heat an 8x8 space when mounted 8 ft off the ground). The energy is not wasted on trying to heat the air, just any solid object (including you) that is in the path of the infrared. Wind does not affect the heat, and they can be used indoors and outdoors, say above a deck or patio that you'd like to sit on when it is cold out.

I might buy one of the beefier ones for this winter and see what happens.
 

carguy123

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Oct 6, 2006
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308
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DFW
I will give the same answer I give all the time :D Hybrid heat . Heat Pump with gas or LP backup heat instead of electric backup if its over 35 * outside the heat pump provides your heat under 35* the fossil fuel furnace provides the heat PLUUUUUS you'll have AC in the summer :D.

Rick

How can you ever call anything with a heat pump efficient? Especially when compared to your back up of gas.

I've just researched and installed a system in my house and nothing beat my high efficiency gas heat except for geothermal which simply cost too much down here to even be a contender.

For those of you contemplating a new system here is a website that gives you the real SEER ratings of different configurations. I was able to make very minor changes in models and get a full point of SEER efficiency with no change in my costs.

http://tinyurl.com/3dm4mm
 

mike944

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Jan 18, 2006
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Vernon, CT
How can you ever call anything with a heat pump efficient? Especially when compared to your back up of gas.

I've just researched and installed a system in my house and nothing beat my high efficiency gas heat except for geothermal which simply cost too much down here to even be a contender......
http://tinyurl.com/3dm4mm

Geothermal IS a heat pump!!! It's just a different type. a "ground-source" heat pump, as opposed to "air-source" which is the more common type, which does need a backup in extremely cold temperatures.


The reason "the most efficient" type of heat is never really discussed, is it's not a black & white answer. There are too many variables. Kind of like asking "what is the best car" or "where is the best place to live" There are plusses and minuses of each.


For "most efficient" I'll assume you mean heat output, per dollar spent on energy, ignoring installation costs. If you factor in installation cost, you throw a completely new variable into the mix.

For the specific question of energy out, per dollar spent on energy, the answer would be any type of heat where you don't have to pay for the energy in. I.e. solar, wind, micro-hydroelectric, etc... anything where you can take something you can get for free, and extract usable energy from it. The problem with all of those is extremely high installation cost, especially when you need to store energy for the nightime and/or no-wind periods. If you're looking at pure operating cost only, not installation cost, those will always win. (of course, eventually, you will have some kind of maintenence cost associated with all of those, but i'll ignore that for now, since that's long-term future cost, and hard to estimate)

Next would be sources that you have to use a small amount of energy to "extract" a fuel that you can get for free. For example, wood, if you have lots of trees available to you. You still need to cut and split the wood. That does take some energy (however small), whether it's fuel for tools, or extra food you have to eat, so you can use your muscles to cut and split. In this example, the energy expended is a very, very small portion of the energy in the wood that you're "extracting" or "unlocking" by turning standing trees, into a usable product. However, you still need to pay property taxes on the land you need to own, so you can have the trees for "free", so there those trees really aren't "free" are they? i'll ignore that one for now. Here you're looking at "extracting" hundreds or thousands of times as much energy as you used to extract it. In this category would also be heat pumps (without "backup" heat). You use a comparatively smaller amount of electricity to "extract" free heat from the ground or the air. Of course, heat pumps only "extract" 2-4 times the amount of energy (electrical) that you need to put in. Because of this, and the fact that "air-source" type works very poorly at low ambient temperatures, they may, or may not be cheaper to operate than some items in the next category, depending on electricity cost and competing fuel costs

Next up would be all of the systems using conventional fuels. Electric (resistance heat), gas, oil, pellet, corn, etc... for those, they all depend on particular costs of those fuels in your area, and the unit efficiency.



Now, for example, if you were looking for highest efficiency (not lowest energy cost), energy in to usable energy out, electric resistance would be the "best" 100% of the energy in becomes heat. Of course, the cost per BTU of electricity is much higher, so even though this is the highest efficiency, it's not the lowest cost.

Heat pump (either ground-source, or air-source) is not really applicable here. I know someone will say " my geothermal heat pump is 350% efficient". Well, not really. You get out 2-4x the amount of ELECTRICITY you put in, but not 2-4X the ENERGY you put in. Remember, the heat pump is taking electrical energy AND energy out of the ground, or the air. One energy you have to pay for, and one you don't. Energy can not be created or destroyed, so nothing can be over 100% efficient, when you look at ALL the energy put into the system, not just the one that you pay for. In fact, many systems are 100% efficient at making heat, they're just not all that efficient at making USABLE heat.

Hope that wasn't too confusing (BTW... yes, i'm an engineer with an interest in energy conversion, as we call it.)
 
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daddylama

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Sep 17, 2007
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Portland, OR
the debate between efficient heat sources NEEDS to include the fuel/energy cost in your area...

people have said that a gas furnace is cheaper to run than an air source heat pump: maybe where you are, but not here.
natural gas is f'ing EXPENSIVE in Portland, compared to our reasonably inexpensive electricity. we could have an older, lower efficiency heat pump and it'd be cheaper to run than a new high efficiency gas furnace.

Solar, which has a pretty damned high buy-in and installation cost, isn't too expensive here: local energy trust + tax credits + other monetary incentives bring the cost WAY down to where it's almost silly not to do it. 2 year payoff period, for a grid-tied PV system, for us... even with the otherwise cheap municipal electricity.
 

skinanbones

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Aug 16, 2007
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Location
shelburne Ontario Canada
the only thing not mentioned here is Pellet stove. The Enviro Mini pellet stove will heat 1200 square feet at max. in the dead of winter here in canada. This stove will use on average a bag a day of pellet thru the heating season if you use it 24/7. Currently a bag of pellets cost about $5-$6 and the whole system could be installed for around $3000 depending on how much of the work you do. The only down side is that you need hyrdo to keep it running but i don't think you'll be in the garage working when the hydro is out
 

Rob Hughes

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Nov 10, 2006
Messages
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The bonus with geothermal heat is that it'll cool and dehumidify your garage the rest of the year as well.....try doing that with a wood stove...lol

I have a geo system in my house that uses an electric backup in case the temp diff (actual air vs thermostat) is too great. With good insulation you should almost never need the backup...until you open the garage door.

My house system cost me about $25k installed, and with fossil fuels where they are i figure it'll pay for itself in less than 5 years.
 

sam 8

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Jan 6, 2008
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253
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Sierra Foothills, Nor. Calif.
I agree with the position that "efficient" is going to mean many things to many people, and geographic location plays a part.
We live at about 2000 ft. in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada. Our electricity is from P,G, & E, and if we were to depend on any form of electric heat in the winter our bills would be unmanageable.
We recently put in a propane tank, to feed the 125,000 btu Reznor shop heater I'm having installed in my "new" shop. It is 1320 sq. ft.
The wife wants gas cooking and we will do a gas water heater in the future.
What works best for us, frankly, is a old fashioned airtight woodstove. Pellet stove are okay, but when the power goes out (frequently in the winter around here) so does the heat.
We burn Oak and Pine or Cedar from dead trees off of our 11 acres, and supplement with Fuel Logs, a compressed form of sawdust (no wax) that has a higher btu rating than Oak, burns incredibly clean, and is very easy to store. The only downside to this stuff is it must be kept in a dry spot. A cord of seasoned Oak around here goes for around $250, which is the same price as a comparable load of fuel logs. All in all, we heat a 1750 sq. ft. house all winter for about $5-600bucks if I have to buy fuel logs and pine/cedar at $160.00.If we have some down trees on the property, that number will drop to about $400.00 a winter.
We don't exactly have mild winters here; we see a foot or so of snow and regular freezes... but it ain't the Yukon Territory either.
Just my humble opinion, but nothing beats wood heat. You don't have to count on anyone or any utilites to stay cozy warm. That means alot to me.
 

stitch

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Sep 18, 2008
Messages
12
The overall cost of ownership is what I'd look at.

Overall cost of ownership = equipment + installation + lifetime energy cost to operate + maintenance

Unless you're looking at geothermal (very expensive equipment and installation), the biggest cost will be lifetime energy cost to operate.

Lifetime energy cost to operate is depends on how much the heater runs and what energy source is used. To make the heater run less, insulate the garage well. As far as energy source goes, see below.

FUEL ENERGY CONTENT UNIT PRICE HEAT CONVERSION EFFICIENCY COST PER MILLION BTU COST PER HOUR

Kerosene 134,000 BTU/gal $4.00 /gal 85 % $35.12 $3.51
#2 Fuel Oil 138,000 BTU/gal $4.00 /gal 80 $36.23 $3.62
Waste Oil 153,000 BTU/gal $0.00 /gal 80 $0.00 $0.00
Propane 92,000 BTU/gal $3.00 /gal 80 $40.76 $4.08
Natural Gas 100,000 BTU/therm $1.54 /therm* 80 $19.25 $1.93
Electricity - Resistance 3,412 BTU/kWh $0.10 /kWh** 100 $29.31 $2.93
Coal 13,200 BTU/lb $165.00 /ton 75 $8.33 $0.83
Firewood-Hardwood 25,000,000 BTU/cord $160.00 /cord 60 $10.67 $1.07
Wood Pellets 8,200 BTU/lb $300.00 /ton 80 $22.87 $2.29
Shelled Corn 6,800 BTU/lb $2.50 /bushel 75 $8.75 $0.88

Kevin
 
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