Motion detector security lighting and multiple fixtures

[soob]

Basically, the way my house is laid out, the usual entrance is pitch black when you come home at night. I added a security light with a motion to detector to the driveway, which is all well and good, but it can't cover the back door with one fixture. There are already lights in the back where the door is, and it seems like it should be simple enough to run a wire from the wall lights' switched hot and splice it to the hot on the security lights, past the motion detector.

In (my) theory this would make the security lights come on when the wall lights are switched on, bypassing the motion sensor, and make the wall lights come on when the security lights come on. Right?

The rub here is that the lights are on different circuits, and there's just nothing I can do about that. I'm sure there's some code rule against feeds from multiple circuits, to protect someone working on them, but is there any other reason not to do this?

Thanks in advance for any input.

 

[Mustang51js]

Usually the motion light comes with a tail to splice other lights into it. The issue you may have if you just tied into it , is that they may be on different circuits and would trip each other at night. You would need to switch the power to same circuit or have the other lights controlled on by by motion and not have a override switch. It would work on the same phase in panel but then you have the issue of breaker being backfed at night

 

[soob]

Thanks very much for your help!

So make sure they're on the same phase. That makes sense. I have simplified the situation significantly -- the security light is on a detached garage, and fed from its sub panel; the wall lights are on the garage, but they're wired up with a bunch of four-way switches and fed from the house -- which they're not supposed to be, I'm sure, but it was how the house came and fixing it is daunting since I have no practical way to run wires in the house. I have attic access and can cut holes in the wall of the garage if necessary. Maybe it wouldn't be so hard to fix the feed for the wall lights, but it is for me!

Of course I can easily move a breaker if the lights turn out to be on different phases.

Is backfeeding the breaker a problem other than the danger of it turning out to be hot when it's off?

 

[cybrdyke]

Wireless.
Done.
Good luck.
CD

 

[Mustang51js]

Thanks very much for your help!

So make sure they're on the same phase. That makes sense. I have simplified the situation significantly -- the security light is on a detached garage, and fed from its sub panel; the wall lights are on the garage, but they're wired up with a bunch of four-way switches and fed from the house -- which they're not supposed to be, I'm sure, but it was how the house came and fixing it is daunting since I have no practical way to run wires in the house. I have attic access and can cut holes in the wall of the garage if necessary. Maybe it wouldn't be so hard to fix the feed for the wall lights, but it is for me!

Of course I can easily move a breaker if the lights turn out to be on different phases.

Is backfeeding the breaker a problem other than the danger of it turning out to be hot when it's off?

Problem with the back feeding is when you turn off one breaker it will still be hot,plus you could overload the circuit if you have a bunch of stuff on there or breaker won't trip at all. I personally wouldn't do it because it's not safe. I would run the power from the garage panel to your switches and disconnect the power coming from house,you will have to move some wires around to make it work,such as using the white in the 3 way setup

 

[soob]

I am just not sure how to go about rewiring it. There's a three-way switch in the house with a hot on the common and two switching wires. I don't recall ever seeing a working three-way switch with just two wires.

There is a neutral but there's a bunch of switches in that box. Maybe one of them is a straight shot to the fixture? Then how do I wire it?

 

[Mustang51js]

Basically in the house you would remove the black which is hot off the switch, then your 3 wire you will have a black,red and white,take the white out of wire nut and put that on the screw where the hot was. On the garage side you will have the new power you run,which is black,white,ground. You will have black,white,ground from the light,and a black ,white ,red from the 3 wire. Take the white from new feed and light and wirenut,take black from feed and put on common(odd colored screw on 3 way), you will need to remove the black wire from light from that screw. Then take the black wire going to light and wire nut that with the white on the 3 wire going into the house. You don't need a neutral on the switch in house because your feed and light wire will be in the garage. Your using the white of the 3 wire as the common going to the house. The other two wires on the 3 way switches you won't need to touch because they will do the same thing as before. Start with that and let us know if you have any more questions,it's good to take pics also because I'm assuming it's a normal 3 way setup,and you could have something different

 

[wssix99]

I believe a 2 pole lighting contactor would solve this. The motion detector could trigger the contactor and then the two separate circuits could b switched off of each pole.

 

[soob]

Start with that and let us know if you have any more questions,it's good to take pics also because I'm assuming it's a normal 3 way setup,and you could have something different

Oh, yeah. For starters the folks who wired my house did not use any 3-wire romex, anywhere. And the garage was originally on a separate circuit from the wall lights (on the side of the garage) but I believe they were sharing a neutral. It may not be possible to do as you've suggested, but I'll look into it.

I believe a 2 pole lighting contactor would solve this. The motion detector could trigger the contactor and then the two separate circuits could b switched off of each pole.

I will look into that. Thanks.

 

[soob]

So, I am thinking about the contactor idea. Honestly, I am not completely sure how it would work, but understanding is something like this:

Contactor is fed by an always-on hot from the garage panel. It is switched by either 125v from the common on the three-way switch that currently goes to the wall lights, or by 125v from the motion detector. If either (or both) of those is hot it will be on. Right?

Shopping for contactors is tricky, though. Can somebody point me to the one I want? Preferably it would be one I could mount in a single gang wall box.

 

[cybrdyke]

Why are you working so hard??

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=293609

www.casetawireless.com
$60 at H-D.
CD

 

[wssix99]

Contactor is fed by an always-on hot from the garage panel. It is switched by either 125v from the common on the three-way switch that currently goes to the wall lights, or by 125v from the motion detector. If either (or both) of those is hot it will be on. Right?

I'm not an expert on these (I have four in my garage that I still need to hook up... If anyone else is an expert in these, please chime in!) but I understand that there are connections for the activation coil and then each pole that you have switched.

You should have your always-hot power to your light sensor. The load wire from that sensor should power the coil on the contactor and will switch it on/off.

Then you'd have your always hot from the garage hooked to one pole of the contactor and then your always hot from the house hooked up to the other pole of the contactor.

Your lights powered by the garage would be hooked up to the other side of your garage pole and then the lights powered by the house would be hooked up to the other side of your house pole.

Shopping for contactors is tricky, though. Can somebody point me to the one I want? Preferably it would be one I could mount in a single gang wall box.

You would need a really deep single gang box for the contactor. I'd purchase the contactor first and then find a box to fit.

I would think you would just need a 2 pole lighting contactor with a 120V coil. These should be easy to find, but the prices seem to be all over the place. Maybe someone else here can make a recommendation? (We had to search for a long time to find a reasonably priced one for our use.)

 

[soob]

I think there's a misunderstanding about the goal-- I need to still be able to use the switch in the house to turn the garage wall lights on and off.

I just want them to come on when the security light does, in addition to otherwise being controlled by the existing switches.

 

[soob]

Why are you working so hard??

www.casetawireless.com
$60 at H-D.
CD

Do those work as four-way switches? I guess the proposal is that I buy three of them ($180), then rewire the lights in the garage to the same circuit as the security light, then wire it as I had proposed in the original post.

That would solve some of my issues but it seems like a lot of trouble and expense and introduces a whole different kind of complexity to the system, not to mention puts me at the mercy of those switches being available in the future. I expect that in five years one switch would fail and they would be out of production, leading to me having to replace all three again.

 

[cybrdyke]

Do those work as four-way switches? I guess the proposal is that I buy three of them ($180), then rewire the lights in the garage to the same circuit as the security light, then wire it as I had proposed in the original post.

That would solve some of my issues but it seems like a lot of trouble and expense and introduces a whole different kind of complexity to the system, not to mention puts me at the mercy of those switches being available in the future. I expect that in five years one switch would fail and they would be out of production, leading to me having to replace all three again.

Trouble and expense compared to installing lighting contactors?????

That's $60 for a kit that includes the wired in wall switch, which is a dimmer, AND a Pico remote.
Once you have the wall switch installed, you can put several Pico's around your house to control the wall switch, so yes, it's a 4-way, a 5-way, a 6-way, etc....
The Pico remotes are $16 at H-D, and if you want to mount them to a wall, the bracket for that is $7. Cheap and easy.
Good luck
CD

 

[soob]

So instead of getting three switches, I have to buy two extra remotes, mount them on the wall somewhere (but not where the switches currently are, since I don't think there are multiple-gang wall mounts for the remotes) then change the batteries every year so my light switches work?

I really would rather just have regular light switches.

 

[cybrdyke]

So instead of getting three switches, I have to buy two extra remotes, mount them on the wall somewhere (but not where the switches currently are, since I don't think there are multiple-gang wall mounts for the remotes) then change the batteries every year so my light switches work?

I really would rather just have regular light switches.

They DO mount where the switches currently are and the battery in the Pico is a 10 year battery. It's all in the brochure and video. You're in for about $100.
You could be done by now.
CD

 

[Beemer533]

I think there's a misunderstanding about the goal-- I need to still be able to use the switch in the house to turn the garage wall lights on and off.

I just want them to come on when the security light does, in addition to otherwise being controlled by the existing switches.

If I were you, I would just add a second security light with its own motion detector for the back door. Just power it off the existing light circuit there.

Either that or replace the existing light with a security light. Most of these lights have a manual mode to override the sensor when you want to turn it on manually.

 

[wssix99]

I think there's a misunderstanding about the goal-- I need to still be able to use the switch in the house to turn the garage wall lights on and off.

I just want them to come on when the security light does, in addition to otherwise being controlled by the existing switches.

So, you want both sets of lights (currently on two circuits) to come on when the motion sensor from one set goes off

and

You want one of those sets (wired from the house) to turn on/off with the switch in the house?


^ If that is the case, then you can keep your switch as-is and do the contactor thing. That one set of lights will either get power from the switch or from the contactor contraption, fed by the motion sensor.

You can do anything -> million different ways. The thing the contactor does for you - is that it allows you to run both sets of lights/circuits off the same motion control without a lot of rewiring.

 

[soob]

I think that will actually work. But instead I will wire the contactor so it's fed from the garage and switched by the common from the switch in the garage (that originates in the house). That way the lights will be "fed" from the garage instead of the house. Is that code compliant? Maybe, I don't know, but it seems closer since the lights wouldn't be powered if the power to the garage was off.

Thanks again.

Now I just need to go back to college, get an EE degree, and use that to figure out which contactor to buy!

 

[wssix99]

^ That wouldn't cause both lights to come on when the one motion detector goes off.

Your local electrical supply can help you find the right contactor. Then you can come home and order it off the internet when they give you a price that pisses you off.

 

[soob]

So I got the relay. It's got five terminals -- COM, NO, NC, and two that are unlabeled (I will call them "C" for coil).

C = switched hot from the light switches (origin: house circuit)
C = neutral (origin: house circuit)
COM = hot (from garage lighting circuit)
NO = to wall lights, jumped to security lights (switched by motion detector) (origin: garage lighting circuit)
NC = not used

With that setup the security light should come on when the wall lights are on, and the wall lights when the security lights are on. All powered from the garage circuit. Right?

 

[landyacht]

That seems right to me. Are you sure there isn't a 3 wire at the switch then it could be done without the relay.

 

[wssix99]

So I got the relay. It's got five terminals -- COM, NO, NC, and two that are unlabeled (I will call them "C" for coil).

C = switched hot from the light switches (origin: house circuit)
C = neutral (origin: house circuit)
COM = hot (from garage lighting circuit)
NO = to wall lights, jumped to security lights (switched by motion detector) (origin: garage lighting circuit)
NC = not used

With that setup the security light should come on when the wall lights are on, and the wall lights when the security lights are on. All powered from the garage circuit. Right?

What is the brand and model number of the relay you are using?

 

[soob]

This one, I think: Zettler Miniature Power Relay 30A SPDT 120VAC AZ2280-1C-120A

 

[wssix99]

With that setup the security light should come on when the wall lights are on,

Yes.

and the wall lights when the security lights are on. All powered from the garage circuit. Right?

No.


Your wall light circuit would control power to the security lights, but there is noting to drive the wall lights when the security sensor(switch) is activated. http://www.azettler.com/pdfs/az2280.pdf

If you want the wall switch to also turn on the security lights and the security lights to also turn on the wall lights, you'll need another relay. If your wall lights are also on a 3 way circuit currently, then you'd also need a 4 way switch and some more wires.

 

[soob]

I think I am just failing to adequately describe how the wall lights are jumped to the motion detector.

The motion detector and acts as a switch for the security light. I plan to jump the switched side of the motion detector to the wall lights. So if one is hot both will be hot and both lights will come on. They'll be fed from the same circuit so that shouldn't be a problem, I think.

 

[wssix99]

I think I am just failing to adequately describe how the wall lights are jumped to the motion detector.

The motion detector and acts as a switch for the security light. I plan to jump the switched side of the motion detector to the wall lights. So if one is hot both will be hot and both lights will come on. They'll be fed from the same circuit so that shouldn't be a problem, I think.

Then one relay will be fine. I was unclear if you also wanted the switch in the house to turn on the security lights also. (That would require an additional relay in the system.)

If you want your security light to control the wall lights, then you'd need a hot-all-the-time wire from the house circuit (that feeds the lights) to go to the relay to power the lights and then the security light electrical powering the coil. (When the security light turns on the wall lights, they will need to get the power from the same source as they would if they are powered by the light switch.)

You may need a drawing for this one.