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Motor popping breaker

EdT

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I have GE 1.5 HP capacitor start motor on my lathe. The motor is pretty new with probably <100 hr operation. It has been running successfully on this machine for more than a year. It's a multi voltage motor and I am running it on 120VAC on a 20 AMP circuit. The label current draw is 16.4 amps. When I turn the lathe on, it runs for about 20 seconds and the breaker blows. Tried it on a different circuit; same thing. If I think about it, I can convince myself that the motor is making a louder than normal 60 cycle hum before it stops. Earlier, it was dead quiet, so I'm pretty sure I'm not imagining it. As the motor slows down, I can hear the centrifugal switch drop out, although that doesn't mean that the internal switch dropped in. My best guess is that the switch for the starting windings is stuck closed. The motor seemed to be a bit hot after this happened, but probably not over the 40*C temp rise on the label (about 140F I'd guess). I've got a fan blowing on it now to cool it off to see if that makes a difference, but it takes a while to get it cool. Any thoughts are appreciated.
 
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big.jim

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sounds like you already answered the question yourself, strip and check the start switch (centrifugal switch) and check the capacitors
 

dieselshadow

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Open the pecker head and check the wiring for obvious defects such as a bare wire, loose connection, or a burnt spot. Next you can unwire it and check the leads to ground. It should show infinite ohms from any lead to the case. You may be able to inspect the centrifugal switch as well.
 

MTW

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To begin with, your circuit is too small. 1.5 HP @120V is code rated at 20A full load current. Then beyond that it requires adding 25% for the minimum headroom. 25A circuit would be the minimum allowed by code, 30A would be better.

Breakers are only rated for 80% of their marked rating for continuous loads and motor loads. Your 20A unit is only good for 16A total for motor use, and is lacking the 25% adder for motor load.

Best bet would be to switch over to a 240V circuit for a 1.5 HP motor, then the full load amps would be 10A.

My guess is the motor start switch or capacitor is damaged from prolonged high starting currents with less than optimal circuit sizing (large voltage drop while starting), getting it up to speed.

For what it's worth, I stay away from GE motors and gear, they have a history of not being the most robust units, for hard service.

MTWΩ
 
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EdT

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Thanks for the feedback. I took the motor apart last night and the centrifugal switch is fine. The run CAP seems suspicious and that is consistent with what I'm seeing so I think I'll replace both caps while I'm at it.
MTW, thanks for the detailed insight. I really had no idea concerning those issues. As I get my shop reorganized I can tap into the 240 outlets that I built in. In the meantime, I guess I'll have to live on the edge. In the application I have the loads are pretty light and intermittent so, hopefully, I won't ruin anything.
 

C96

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To begin with, your circuit is too small. 1.5 HP @120V is code rated at 20A full load current. Then beyond that it requires adding 25% for the minimum headroom. 25A circuit would be the minimum allowed by code, 30A would be better.

Breakers are only rated for 80% of their marked rating for continuous loads and motor loads. Your 20A unit is only good for 16A total for motor use, and is lacking the 25% adder for motor load.

Best bet would be to switch over to a 240V circuit for a 1.5 HP motor, then the full load amps would be 10A.

My guess is the motor start switch or capacitor is damaged from prolonged high starting currents with less than optimal circuit sizing (large voltage drop while starting), getting it up to speed.

For what it's worth, I stay away from GE motors and gear, they have a history of not being the most robust units, for hard service.

MTWΩ

MTW, very well stated and exactly correct.

Most people don’t realize what damage can be inflicted to an electric motor when used on under sized circuits. It’s probably the No.1 killer of most electric motors.
 

Kevin C

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My take:

Since there are some posts that seem to be based on article 430....

Under article 430: For a motor circuit, the breaker is only there to clear short circuits and extreme overloads ( stalled motor). It's not designed to thermally protect a motor.

Why does article 430 exist? Its to prevent nuisance trips when starting a motor. Since the load from a motor is almost purely inductive, its starting current is very high ( up to 6X run current). Article 430 allows you to increase the breaker size to account for this momentary loading without having to increase the wire gauge as much as a similar circuit with a less inductive load.

While 430 lets you up the breaker to prevent startup tripping, it also specifies that you also need to provide thermal protection for overloading (a separate system from the breaker in the box). If your motor has a built in overheat sensor, you should be good. If you don't, you need to supply additional circuit protection.

If you were to redesign your current breaker and wiring system to meet article 430, you would also be allowed to increase the size of the breaker, that would increase the time it took to trip (assuming no additional thermal protection is added), and how hot the motor gets before its power is cut.

Since you don't have a problem starting your motor on a 20 amp circuit, the inrush current is not that high. Basically, stay with a 20 amp breaker.

Also, my read of article 430 ratings is a 25 amp motor circuit requires 12 AWG wire ( table 310.16, 60C column). Also see 240.4(D)(3), that limits you to a 20 amp breaker on 12 awg wire ( fine in this application).


A Few Points:

1: Your wire gauge meets the requirements of article 430.
2: You breaker is adequate for your application since its not tripping on startup ( no need to upsize it).
3: In your case, a 20 amp break is better, since it is currently working as an overload protection device.

Is the motor under load when it slows down (aka are you making a heavy cut?) I'm guessing no.

Why is your motor tripping its breaker?

1: Its running past its rated output ( to large a load).
2: Its damaged (probably a bad run cap or a shorted winding).

Since this is a new problem, look for a damaged motor or cap. As to figuring cause and effect, thats tough. It sounds like your system lacks thermal protection and at some point you could have overheated your motor. Or you have a run cap that went bad.

I would start with the run cap.

See the link for a step by step on a 1.5 HP motor.

http://www.ecmag.com/section/codes-standards/branch-circuits-lampholders-motor-controllers-and-more

To determine the minimum branch-circuit-conductor ampacity, use Sections 430-6 and 430-22. Section 430-6 requires the use of Table 430-148 to obtain the full load current of a 1.5 horsepower, 120-volt single-phase motor. Although there is no 120-volt column, the commentary that is part of the Table allows the 115-volt column to be used for motor nameplate voltages of 110 to 120 volts. Therefore, the full load current of the 1.5 horsepower motor is 20 amperes.

Section 430-22(a) dictates the minimum-branch-circuit conductor ampacity. This section requires a minimum ampacity of 125 percent of table full load current. Therefore, the branch circuit conductor ampacity cannot be less than 25 (20 x 1.25). According to Table 310-16, the ampacity of 60 degrees C or 75 degrees C No. 12 copper wire is 25, which satisfies Section 430-22 (a).

The next step is to size the overload relays in the motor starter. Part C of Article 430 has the title: “Motor and Branch-Circuit Overload Protection,” and part of Section 430-31 has this sentence: “Part C specifies overload devices intended to protect motors, motor-control apparatus, and motor branch-circuit conductors against excessive heating due to motor overloads and failure to start.” Notice that the overload relays are intended to protect the branch circuit conductors as well as the motor and controller.

As far as run caps failing, over voltages and heat are typical causes.

http://www.temcocontent.com/capacitorfaq.html#fail

Why did my run capacitor fail?

The answer may be simple, but depending on how close the run capacitor is to its design life, it may also be difficult to nail the reason down to a single factor.
Time - All capacitors have a design life. Several factors may be interchanged or combined to increase or reduce the life of a run capacitor, but once the design life is exceeded, the internals may begin to more rapidly decay and drop in performance. Simply put, a failure may be attributed to it being "just old."

Heat - Exceeding the design limit of operating temperature can have a big effect on run capacitor life expectancy. In general, motors that are operated in hot environments or with little ventilation will experience a dramatically reduced lifespan on their run capacitor. The same can be caused by radiated heat from a generally hot running motor causing the capacitor to run hot. In general, if you can keep your run capacitor cool, it will last a lot longer.

Current - Motor failure causes the capacitor to be overloaded. This scenario is less commonly noticed, as it would usually be accompanied by a partial or complete failure of the motor. The motor is overloaded or has a failure in the windings, causing the current to climb. This can have an effect on the capacitor.

Voltage - This single factor can have an exponential effect in shortening design life. A run capacitor will have a marked voltage rating that should not be exceeded. Let's use 440 volts as an example. At 450 volts, the life may be reduced by 20%. At 460 volts, the life may be reduced by 50%. At 470 volts, there is a 75% life reduction, and so on. The same can be applied in reverse to help increase life by using a capacitor with a voltage rating significantly higher then needed, although to a lesser dramatic degree.
 
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EdT

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Thanks for the additional input. The arrangement I have (20 amp breaker, 12awg wiring) has worked fine for a couple of years so I don't think it's functionally flawed although it apparently doesn't meet the letter of the code for a motor this size. The motor doesn't work very hard in this application. The only reason I used a 1.5 HP motor is that I had it and it fit and it looked a whole lot better than the 70 year old 1/2 HP that the machine was originally equipped with at the tail end of WW II. The torque (current) limit on the lathe is the belt which drives the spindle, not the motor. That is, if I try to take too big a cut the motor keeps going and the belt slips. don't have a convenient way to measure the current draw under these conditions, but I can say that it has never popped the breaker when the belt slips (which is infrequently).
Since this is a new problem I suspected that something had failed someplace so I tested the motor on two different circuits to reduce the likelihood that the breaker was at fault and got the same result on both circuits. I initially suspected that the start cap was not dropping out, but the switch inside the motor looks fine and "switches" when the centrifugal actuator in manually actuated and I could hear it drop in as the motor slowed after the breaker popped. Since the motor starts to spin before the breaker pops, I now think that the run cap is dead. It ohms out as open (best I can do with what I have to test with). I'm not a motor expert but I think that if the run cap is dead then the phase lag is not set and the motor tries to run, but it can't really get going properly even though it's spinning. It draws a lot of current and badness happens. I'll know for sure Monday when I replace both the start and run caps. While the motor is "new" in terms of use, it's still about 20 years old and electrolytics don't last forever.
Thanks again for the feedback, I'll let you know how things work out next week.
 

C96

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There are many factors to consider when troubleshooting this scenario.

As far as being code compliant, possibly yes, but since we don’t have all the pertinent information regarding this installation there could be other contributing factors making this non code compliant and subject the motor to failure over time.

Voltage drop, we don’t know the length of this entire run. Assuming it is 12 AWG it would be the bare minimum required for code compliance and any voltage drop along the way would definitely contribute to overheating and future motor failure.

Is it a dedicated circuit exclusively for this motor, or is the circuit for general purpose? It sounds as though it might be on a general purpose circuit, and if so, other equipment or appliances could be drawing the needed current to start the motor properly.

Is it cord and plug connected? Is the cord of the correct size wire gauge? How long is the cord? Any of these factors will cause premature motor failure.

In a perfect scenario, this setup would seem to be just squeaking by the minimum requirements as per the NEC, but as stated above there could well be many other factors contributing to this all of a sudden motor will not start and stay running problem.

My feeling is this motor has been running on a system that is just under adequate for its demands and is now suffering the long term consequences. First guess would be capacitor failure, but simply replacing them will not solve the long term problem.

As MTW stated, your best option would be rewire for 240 volt operation on a separate dedicated circuit with appropriate overload and branch circuit short circuit protection.
 
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Kevin C

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There are many factors to consider when troubleshooting this scenario.

There are a lot of factors to consider... In my experience, some scenarios are a lot more plausible. Root cause is always tough, especially with a sample size of one.

Failures From Starting: You propose that a combination of factors is creating a marginal starting condition. This in turn stressed components and caused a longer term failure. Sure that might be what happened. A counter point is the starting load is very low for the size of the motor. The lath was originally fitted with a 1/2 hp motor, it now has a 1.5 hp motor and its not starting against a significant load. Also, a 20 amp breaker is not tripping. My take it the start current is not very high ( if it was the breaker would trip, remember thats why we have the code in section 430). Reasonable starting currents mean minimal voltage drops. Anything is possible, but in my experience this is not where I would be looking.

For perspective, look at how many devices you can buy that use 1.5 hp motors at close to full capacity and operate from a 120 V outlet. Portable air compressors come to mind. A lathe might need full power once in a while (20% if your making a deep cut?). In this case the drive belt limits the torque ( it slips) that limits the power power the motor puts out limiting the current draw.

Considering the low starting load, intermittent duty cycle and that the motor is oversized and its output is limited by the drive belt, I think other causes should be considered.

As the OP noted, electrolytic capacitors have a shelf life. This one sat unused for 20 years before being put into service. 20 years is a long time and and will cause a capacitor to deteriorate and lose capacity.

Aluminum electrolytic capacitors have a limited shelf life. The aluminum oxide
dielectric is not stable. When a capacitor is in use (voltage applied) the dielectric is
continuously being produced (healing). Because no healing takes place during storage,
the dielectric strength will deplete due to dielectric polarization caused by impurities
which exist in the material from manufacturing (American Society for Testing and
Materials, 1978).



Gradually, during storage and/or operation, the electrolyte in an aluminum
electrolytic capacitor is lost by means of vapor transmission through the
end seals. The rate of loss is directly dependent on the composition of the
electrolyte, the effectiveness of the end-seal, and the operating and/or
storage temperatures…. Electrolyte loss can be measured as weight loss.
… after about 40% of the electrolyte has been lost… the ESR increased
rapidly, the capacitance decreased

As ESR goes up, the resistive heating of the
capacitor in service increases. The effect of elevated temperatures is an increase in the
rate of evaporation of the electrolyte, which in turns contributes to higher ESR values

http://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc3104/m2/1/high_res_d/thesis.pdf

Short Story: A stored cap loses electrolyte due to evaporation. The structure is also compromised from never being charged. The capacitor is put back into service. Its still works but has lower capacity and a high ESR. The high ESR causes the cap to run hot. That increases the electrolyte evaporation, reducing its capacity even further. That in turn gets it to run hotter.... 10 to 16 years is about it to store a cap. After 20 years, its reasonable that you will start to see failures.
 
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C96

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Hi Kevin,

You make some good points here, but you keep stating that his 20 amp breaker is not tripping. The fact is the breaker has been tripping and this is why the OP started the thread to begin with, (hence, name of thread).

Motor popping breaker

When I turn the lathe on, it runs for about 20 seconds and the breaker blows.

Since you don't have a problem starting your motor on a 20 amp circuit, the inrush current is not that high.

2: You breaker is adequate for your application since its not tripping on startup ( no need to upsize it).

Also, a 20 amp breaker is not tripping.

Yes, the breaker is tripping and for reasons I believe is from long term use on an inadequate circuit that finally took a toll on the motor.

I do agree with the capacitor being the culprit here and replacing it will most likely get him up and running again, but not a solution, but more of a temporary fix.

The lath was originally fitted with a 1/2 hp motor, it now has a 1.5 hp motor and its not starting against a significant load.

Considering the low starting load, intermittent duty cycle and that the motor is oversized and its output is limited by the drive belt, I think other causes should be considered.

Exactly, this motor should have run forever under this condition, but it subsequently failed. This being the reason I find fault with the electrical circuit.

For perspective, look at how many devices you can buy that use 1.5 hp motors at close to full capacity and operate from a 120 V outlet. Portable air compressors come to mind.

Lol…Nice try, these units you mention are misleading. If any piece of utilization equipment of any type rated at 1½ horse power that comes equipped with a general purpose household cord and plug capable of being plugged into a typical convenience outlet at someone’s home is nothing more than deceitful. Quite frankly it’s BS. Manufactures are always trying to pull the wool over the general public’s eyes with these erroneous HP ratings. Fact is the unit may not draw more than 12 amps if supplied with this type cord and plug regardless of what’s claimed for horsepower

NEC rates a 1½ HP 120v single phase motor at 20 amps and this is what we must use when sizing circuits in the US.
 

Kevin C

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Hi Kevin,

You make some good points here, but you keep stating that his 20 amp breaker is not tripping. The fact is the breaker has been tripping and this is why the OP started the thread to begin with.

Kevin...I thought the difference was clear so I didn't state it. Pre failure the system worked fine and did not trip the breaker. That's what I based my inrush current and running observations on. Assuming the problem is the run cap, it still starts and gets up to a rpm high enough to disengage the start cap without tripping the breaker. Again, starting is not the issue, it's staying running.[./B]






Lol…Nice try, these units you mention are misleading. If any piece of utilization equipment of any type rated at 1½ horse power that comes equipped with a general purpose household cord and plug capable of being plugged into a typical convenience outlet at someone’s home is nothing more than deceitful. Quite frankly it’s BS. Manufactures are always trying to pull the wool over the general public’s eyes with these erroneous HP ratings. Fact is the unit may not draw more than 12 amps if supplied with this type cord and plug regardless of what’s claimed for horsepower

NEC rates a 1½ HP 120v single phase motor at 20 amps and this is what we must use when sizing circuits in the US.


I was not trying to mislead or BS. There are a lot of devices out there with standard line cords that draw 12.5 to 15 Amps @120V. Look for a device label with a NRTL logo and check the ratings. I have brought heated / motorized systems through the NRTL program. Based on my experience, the numbers on the label are legit.

Also, you do realize that there are exceptions to the NEC 430 that allows manf to get around the 1.5 HP 20 amp rule?
 
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EdT

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Success!! Today I took the caps from the motor to the local motor repair shop which was, basically, a sheet metal industrial building with piles of dead motors and 1/4" of gritty dust on every thing. The guy tested them by charging them up and discharging them and with a meter that read, I guess, in mfds. and said they were OK. I was bummed because I had a strong feeling that the run cap, at least, was NG. So, after some discussion, I bought new caps and installed them and the motor runs fine now. based on the discussion above, I did a quick voltage drop test. With the motor "off" the line voltage at the machine is 122VAC. With the motor running with no load, the voltage at the same test point is 120. The voltage drops down to about 110 VAC for an instant during start up based on several starts. The sampling rate of my meter is not fast enough to catch the low reliably on one test, but 110 was the lowest I saw. So, the lathe runs again and I can finish up the parts I was making. At some point, I'll move the machine so I can access the 240VAC circuits that I have available elsewhere in the shop. I might even look at voltage drop while making a cut just to see what it looks like.
Many thanks to all the people who took the time to reply to my question.
 

Kevin C

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Great to hear! A lathe for my shop is high on my wish list. Right now, I can use the lathe work after hours, not quite the same as having one in your own shop.

Curious, what type of lathe do you have?
 
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EdT

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Kevin,
Thanks again for all your input (and everyone else's too). I live in the southeast near Atlanta, GA. This area has never been a big manufacturing center so there are not as many machine tools laying around as there are in other areas of the country. I have an old 9" South Bend that I've had for over 50 years and it wasn't new when I got it. I've been doing a lot of pick up work since I retired and felt I needed a bigger machine that could move more metal so I started looking and, after a couple of years, I found a 10" South Bend. It's a heavy 10R which is just like the more commonplace 10L except the hole in the spindle is a bit smaller. Can't imagine why they felt the need to differentiate the machines that way. Maybe too many people complaining that the spindle hole is too big. Anyhow, it was built in 1945 (has the war materials board tag on it). The story line goes that it was bought by a dentist right after the war as surplus. It came with just about every thing it could have to go with it except the milling attachment (no biggie, I have a B'port). Best of all, he didn't use it much/at all so, while it's pretty old, it's not been used much. I did do a total strip down and rebuild just to see what I had and to fix all the dried up oil wicks and all and there was still cosmoline on lots of the parts. Most of the accessories were still coated as well and many were in the original boxes. So it's almost like finding one in the crate, but not quite. It does move metal way faster than the 9" machine, but I still use that one pretty frequently. Of course, compared to a modern machine, it has some drawbacks,but they are mostly convenience issues which are not as important to me as they would be in a production environment. That said, there is not much commercial work being done on manual machines any more. They're just not competitive with CNC except for prototypes and one offs and, even there, if you have a good programmer, CNC is faster and, arguably better. It's also a lot more expensive and there's a significant learning curve as well. The only electronics in my machine is the Cap that failed. Everything else is mechanical and easy to understand which is good for a Luddite like me. hope you find a machine someday. It is way better to have one at home for your home jobs. I had use of a full shop while I was working and it's just not the same. Thanks again for your input to my motor problem.
 

Kevin C

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UPDATE: Been running a lot for the past three days and everything is fine.

Nice to hear.... Sounds like you have a great setup. I even managed to get in some lathe time this week... I also remembered how slow SS turns! That and random hot chips will stick to and melt synthetic fiber shirts.
 
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