Mounting 60A panel in detached garage - location

[Nick_Wa]

Hello everyone, added a couple pictures below of my garage. I am getting prepared to wire it with 60A service over 3-6 armored cable.

I want to bring the service cable in the second stud cavity to the right of the white shelf in the picture. The garage is 24x24 and there is one more stud cavity to the right that is not pictured. The house is also to the right about 15' from the front of the garage so it would be a nice trench to dig. Is there any reason I shouldn't or can't put the panel there?

Putting anywhere else would add a lot of trenching to the project and more cable, not sure if there is any reason not to put it here?

Pictures 2, 3, and 4 are other shots of the garage.

Thanks

Edit: Here is the panel I am going with: http://www.homedepot.ca/product/60-...er-loadcentre-with-24-circuits-maximum/992414

 

[raceman17]

It should be ok there. Whats the outside wall covereing of your garage? Your going to have to make the connection into the box some how and will need to go through the wall.

 

[sands35]

If you want to go through the effort, you can figure out the cost of a longer service run vs the potential for shorter interior runs. IMHO, not worth the effort. The hard part is the trench. Put the service panel where it's simplest to trench too, then don't worry about the cost balance of internal vs the service entry cost.

For the trench, get a trench shovel. Makes the job much simpler. I'm so glad I spent the $30 on one of those.

I would think about the panel location if you are going to put in a ~40-50 amp service in for a welder or something. After your service entry wire, that will be the most expensive.

Have you planned out the number of circuits you want?

Have you checked with your local code authority? They can be very helpful with questions and basic practices.

 

[CNGsaves]

With that short of a trench, I wouldn't skimp on the buried wire to only handle 60 amp.

Check out prior GJ threads as most common wire (up to 90 amp) is mobile home feeder 2-2-2-4 Aluminum. IIRC it can be direct bury, but I'd recommend putting in 2" conduit according to your local code requirement depth (normally at minimum 18" but some states deeper like 30").

OP . . now would be good time to Update GJ Profile with your location so you get best advice.

P.S. Read all those threads as they cover requirement to have 2 ground rods on a detached garage, and that it must be 4 wires to detached garage.

 

[Nick_Wa]

It should be ok there. Whats the outside wall covereing of your garage? Your going to have to make the connection into the box some how and will need to go through the wall.

Outside of the garage is insulated tin siding (horizontal, looks like standard vinyl siding). I am planning direct burial with 2" conduit sweep into an LB about 12"-18" up the wall.

If you want to go through the effort, you can figure out the cost of a longer service run vs the potential for shorter interior runs. IMHO, not worth the effort. The hard part is the trench. Put the service panel where it's simplest to trench too, then don't worry about the cost balance of internal vs the service entry cost.

For the trench, get a trench shovel. Makes the job much simpler. I'm so glad I spent the $30 on one of those.

I would think about the panel location if you are going to put in a ~40-50 amp service in for a welder or something. After your service entry wire, that will be the most expensive.

Have you planned out the number of circuits you want?

Have you checked with your local code authority? They can be very helpful with questions and basic practices.

I will look into a trench shovel and this would be the ideal location to minimize both service cable length and interior wiring. Most of the electrical will be on this wall with the exception of outlets every 6' around the entire garage and the outlets and lights on the ceiling. Switches will be to the left of the bench beside the man door.

Welder plug will be just to the right of the panel. I am trying to keep the left side wall clear (of permanent items) and build shelving along the back wall. Right bay will be the work area and the left bay will be power equipment and a seating area.

Circuits I am planning right now:
1 - Indoor lighting
2 - Outdoor lighting
3 - Outdoor receptacles
4 - Welder
5 - Heater
6 - Left side receptacles
7 - Right side receptacles
8 - Garage door openers + ceiling receptacles

 

[Nick_Wa]

With that short of a trench, I wouldn't skimp on the buried wire to only handle 60 amp.

Check out prior GJ threads as most common wire (up to 90 amp) is mobile home feeder 2-2-2-4 Aluminum. IIRC it can be direct bury, but I'd recommend putting in 2" conduit according to your local code requirement depth (normally at minimum 18" but some states deeper like 30").

OP . . now would be good time to Update GJ Profile with your location so you get best advice.

P.S. Read all those threads as they cover requirement to have 2 ground rods on a detached garage, and that it must be 4 wires to detached garage.

I have some TECK90 cable I was given that I will be using for this. I honestly don't think I will ever need more than (or even close to) > 60A. I will be burying the cable >30". It will be 240V and the TECK cable is 4 wire.

 

[royalton10]

I would look at 100 amp or bigger panel and feed in more than 60 amps. The cheapest it will be to do bigger than 60 amps is when you have the trench opened up.

You always have the option is buy a panel bigger than 100 amps and then feed it with just 90 or 100 amp breaker from the house.

You are going to see multiple suggestions to do more than 60 amp feed.

 

[Stuart in MN]

Locate the panel in a place where it won't get blocked off with junk, you're supposed to keep clear access to the panel for safety reasons. A good place is often behind the man door, since it's pretty hard to pile stuff up there.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Here is a page from a very useful book I have, that shows what the requirements are for clear working space around a panel in a building. It will give you an idea of the area you are required by the NEC to keep clear at all times (and few people ever bother to).

Charles

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Spec sheet for TECK90 cable.

60 amps is most likely more than enough unless you install some crazy electric heat system, or a huge high draw welder. Just think energy efficient on things like lighting and you will be fine. Hard to complain with free on cable like this.

Charles

 

[Nick_Wa]

Thanks for those guidelines on that page Charles. And I think 60 is lots too since I don't currently have a welder and when I do get one, it will just be standard home use one. I don't do any machining or have high draw wood shop tools either.

Sent from a Galaxy Nexus in Canada.

 

[p_mori7]

I would not mount it inside the cavity, in order to get some insulation & vapor barrier behind it. That's what I did recently for my build...I also used TecK armored wire.

 

[theoldwizard1]

In the 60A vs 100A, sometimes local suppliers (HD, Lowes, Menards) have special deals on 100A panel complete with breakers. It may actually be cheaper than a 60A panel and buying breakers separately.

 

[Nick_Wa]

I would not mount it inside the cavity, in order to get some insulation & vapor barrier behind it. That's what I did recently for my build...I also used TecK armored wire.

Really?! Any chance I could see some photo of how you ran it into garage as well as how you terminated it in regards to the armor. Wondering if I will be able to put it through a 2" lb and also how to handle the connection to box.

Did you run teck all the way from house panel or run something different indoors with a junction box splice somewhere?

Thank you!

Sent from a Galaxy Nexus in Canada.

 

[CNGsaves]

You're getting good advice to insulate shop in Canada as best you can (including surface mounting electrical panel instead of within wall cavity).

There was thread with Canada shop where guy also wrapped each outlet (vapor barrier) so that he would not get any air losses at each electrial outlet. Once he sheetrocked and taped everything, he had tight "envelope" to retain heat.

Speaking of heat, how will the shop be heated?? If you're going all electric, that will be big amp load.

 

[Nick_Wa]

Yeah I'm starting to think maybe I should surface Mount it, its just not as clean looking. And yeah I am planning on using the vapor barrier boxes as I got a bunch at a yard sale last weekend.

I'll probably go with this heater but not planning to insulate and heat it this year. I'll need new garage doors at that time too.

http://www.menards.com/main/mobile/...rect-vent-garage-heater/p-1312847-c-12905.htm

Sent from a Galaxy Nexus in Canada.

 

[Bib Overalls]

I have 70 amps to my shop. I started out with a small panel like the one you are considering. As I added tools and equipment and finally a heat pump I ran out of spaces. I could have used duplex breakers but chose, instead, to upgrade to a 100 amp panel. I still feed it through a 70 amp breaker in my meter base. At some point I am going to upgrade my cable to carry 100 amps. Looking back, I should have gone with 100 amps from the get go.

 

[ez-duzit]

Don't limit yourself to 60-amp service. It won't be any more work to install 100-amps. New panels are ~$100 & up. Buy separately the exact number and rating breakers you need. Consider that some welders require compressed air supply which means 2 heavy-draw machines both on at the same time. Add lighting, battery charger and accessories and you may be way past 60 amps.

You can often find bargains on perfectly good used take-off 100-amp panels from upgrade projects. These may require the installation of a used meter at ~$20. But they can be found with a bunch of breakers you won't have to buy.

Where you pierce the wall to bring in the power cable (+ phone, internet...), use proper weatherproof conduit and fittings. Do a carefull job of sealing this interface. And design the installation so that it naturally sheds water.

 

[sands35]

Yeah I'm starting to think maybe I should surface Mount it, its just not as clean looking. And yeah I am planning on using the vapor barrier boxes as I got a bunch at a yard sale last weekend.

I'll probably go with this heater but not planning to insulate and heat it this year. I'll need new garage doors at that time too.

http://www.menards.com/main/mobile/...rect-vent-garage-heater/p-1312847-c-12905.htm

Sent from a Galaxy Nexus in Canada.

If you have vapor barrier boxes, that's a good start. Interior/exterior caulk also works as does careful drywall work. The trick is that *every* hole needs to be plugged.

 

[Nick_Wa]

Fair enough but I won't be going with drywall. It will be 1/2 or 7/16 OSB primed and painted eventually with R14 in the walls.

I'm thinking this panel might be a better idea. 100A and comes with 5 x 15A tandem breakers so 10 15A circuits. Don't need that much but for the $30 extra, it is cheaper than buying the 60A panel and breakers on top.

http://www.homedepot.ca/product/100...e-retrofit-panel-package-with-breakers/992424

 

[p_mori7]

Really?! Any chance I could see some photo of how you ran it into garage as well as how you terminated it in regards to the armor. Wondering if I will be able to put it through a 2" lb and also how to handle the connection to box.

Did you run teck all the way from house panel or run something different indoors with a junction box splice somewhere?

I ran the Teck wire from the box in the house all the way to the box in the garage. I used LB's and conduit and wide radius elbows to bring it into the ground.

I did have to strip the spiraled armor & rubber sheath off to get it through the conduit & LB's into the panels.

Take a look at my most recent pics in my build thread (link below in my signature).