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Mr. Heater Gas Valve Problem

SpeedThrills

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Jan 9, 2014
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27
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Verrrry South Jersey
I have a Model No. MH25NG Item No. F272200 Mr. Heater in my garage. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00006L7UZ/?tag=atomicindus08-20
I installed it about 10 or 12 years ago, and it's been fine until the last couple of years. The gas valve needs a tap on the side for it to operate.

This link says it's discontinued. VS820A1039 by HONEYWELL - Buy or Repair at Radwell - Radwell.com Searching shows other valves that will possibly interchange? Some cost more than a new heater. ($300 ish)

Can a gas valve be repaired? Is it sticking or? I've never worked on one.

I'm a capable mechanic. I just don't want to blow up my garage. :rolleyes:
 
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SpeedThrills

Active member
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Messages
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they do stick. had to replace one on my furnace. mine was discontinued as well. there will be a superseded replacement or another brand with similar specs. mine was 1" shorter and needed a longer feed pipe but works fine.

link to cross reference with replacement, do a search on your part # (Ctrl +F) and you'll see it.
https://controlscentral.com/Portals/0/HW Gas Valve Cross Reference.pdf
Thanks for the reply.
If I'm reading that chart right, I need a VS820A1088. It's about $300. So's a new heater.
 

gungatim

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Jan 8, 2013
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west mich
you don't need to buy the $300 replacement, look at the chart, you have a standard fast opening standing pilot gas valve. any sub $100 equivalent with the same characteristics is what you want to find. (ie max btu, thermocouple type, etc.) for $20 you can buy a nice digital meter to set the wc if needed.

good document here:
https://www.absolutaire.com/sites/default/files/public/documents/101719.pdf



read this I stole from the internet a while ago.

gas valves are actually very simple to understand. Once you understand how they work, it'll almost seem embarrassing to have to explain how they work cuz they're so simple.

When you look at a gas valve, imagine two valves in series.

The gas port where the tube to the pilot light connects is between the two valves, so that gas can flow to the pilot light as long as the first valve, or "safety" valve is open. If the second valve, or "main" valve is open, it can also flow to the burner trays.

Both valves are operated by electromagnets. The electric power to hold the first valve open, and therefore allow gas flow to the pilot light comes from the thermocouple or thermopile immersed in the pilot light flame. The thermocouple or thermopile generates electricity from the heat of the pilot light flame.

So, if the pilot light flame goes out, then the voltage to hold the safety electromagnetic valve open is lost and the safety valve closes, thereby shutting off gas flow completely, including the gas flow to the pilot light.

The second electromagnetic valve in the gas valve, the "main" valve, allows gas flow through a much larger tube to the burner trays. This second electromagnetic valve gets power from either a 24 VAC transformer or the thermopile. Up until recently flue dampers were not required on water heaters so 120 VAC power wasn't needed to operate hot water heaters. As a result hot water heaters typcially used thermopiles to generate more electricity than a thermocouple could, and used that electricity to operate both electromagnetic valves in the water heater's gas valve.

A thermopile is nothing more than about 25 thermocouples all connected in series, so that a thermopile generates about 750 millivolts instead of the 30 millivolts that a thermocouple produces.

On a boiler or furnace, there will be 120 VAC power available to operate the circulating pump or blower, and so by using a 24 volt transformer this 120 volt power can be converted into the same 24 VAC power that the safety controls on a boiler or furnace operate on. By simply putting the second electromagnetic valve in series with all of the safety controls, the second electromagnetic valve will open and allow gas to flow to the burner trays as long as every safety control in that "control circuit" allows power to flow through it. If any safety control detects a problem, it interrupts the circuit to that second electromagnetic valve, thereby shutting off gas flow to the burner trays (but not the pilot light).

This is where I fly off on a tangent:
Typically, the thermostat in a house won't be connected directly to that 24 VAC control circuit to the main valve in the gas valve. That's because to heat up a house you also need the boiler's circulating pump or furnace blower to come on to deliver the heat to the house. I'm much more familiar with hot water heating systems, so I'll describe the typical arrangement for a boiler. Typically the thermostat will be connected to a double pole 24 volt relay, and when that relay gets energized, it completes two circuits; a 120 VAC circuit to the boiler circulating pump or furnace blower, and a 24 VAC circuit through to the temperature control (or "aquastat") on the boiler. When power flows through that aquastat circuit, it energizes a second relay that completes a 24 VAC circuit through all the safety controls to the "main valve" in the gas valve. So, as long as the thermostat is calling for heat, the aquastat is controlling the boiler temperature setting (from 160 to 190 deg. F) and turning on and shutting off the gas valve to maintain the boiler water temperature at that setting. If the first relay completed the circuit to the gas valve directly, then the boiler would keep firing until it kicked itself out on high limit. By having that first relay control a circuit through the aquastat that controls a second relay which operates the gas valve, then the aquastat controls the gas valve to, in turn, control the water temperature in the heating system. A boiler will typically have a "ladder diagram" which shows the start up sequence as sequence of "loops" (kinda like a ladder).
Newer boilers or furnaces will simply have a "controller" that the thermostat connects to that does all this and more.
Back to the chase...

So, to diagnose a gas valve, first check to see if the pilot light is on. If so, then the thermocouple or thermopile is generating enough voltage to keep the safety valve open. If the appliance is a hot water heater but it's not firing up, the thermopile might be weak. It may be producing enough power to open the safety valve, but not enough to open both the safety and main valves together. If replacing the thermopile doesn't work, then you need a new gas valve.

If the appliance is a boiler or furnace, it'll use 24 VAC to operate the "main" valve. Check to see if you're getting 24 VAC at the terminals on the gas valve. If so, and the boiler or furnace isn't firing up, then you need a new gas valve. If you don't have 24 VAC at the gas valve terminals, check for continuity across all the safety devices in the control circuit of the boiler or furnace as it's likely one of the safety devices is interrupting the circuit to the main valve.

The "button" you have to push on a gas valve when lighting the pilot light simply overrides the first electromagnetic valve to allow gas to flow to the pilot light. Once the thermocouple or thermopile is hot enough, the electricity it generates will be sufficient to hold that electromagnet open and you can release that "button". This can often take a few seconds.

Also, thermocouples gradually lose their ability to generate sufficient voltage to operate that safety electromagnet, and when they do, gas flow to the pilot light stops. So, a pilot light that won't stay lit is often the result of an old and weak thermocouple. Different thermocouples get replaced differently. Most of the time you can just pull down on them to pull them out of a spring clip that holds them in place. Other thermocouples will be held in with a thumb screw you loosen from below to pull the thermocouple out. Basically, if it doesn't have a thumb screw on the bottom, pull down on it.

Some gas appliances, like natural gas burning fireplaces will have a "dual" pilot light that has two pilot light flames; one for a thermocouple and the other that continuously heats a thermopile. The thermocouple will produce the voltage to hold the safety valve open in the gas valve, and the thermopile will produce the voltage that goes through the control circuit to the second electromagnetic valve. In this way, the fire place can be turned on, turned up, turned down and shut off with just the turn of a switch even without external electric power being supplied to it.

This is what a thermoCOUPLE looks like:

The copper "tube" is really a coaxial cable. The outside of the cable is copper and there's an insulated copper wire that runs inside it. When the end of the thermocouple is heated, a voltage is generated between the two copper conductors.

This is what a thermoPILE looks like:

The distinguishing characteristic of a thermopile is that it connects to the gas valve with two electric wires (each with a terminal crimped onto it) rather than with a single nut like the thermocouple does.

And, finally, since both a thermocouple and a thermopile simply create a voltage difference between two wires when their ends are heated, different lengths of thermocouples will all generate the same voltage, just as thermopiles of different length. So you can use a longer thermocouple to replace a shorter one, and use a longer thermopile to replace a shorter one. They're like extension cords or garden hoses or battery booster cables in that respect. That's important to know when you're water heater's pilot light goes out and the hardware store doesn't have a thermopile of the right length. (Just buy a longer one.)

Slow valve for direct ignition (Hot Surface Ignition) – The first and second main valves operate together on module controller command and allow gas glow to main burner (after HIS reaches temp). no pilot gas outlet tap.
24v AC, 0.9amps when both energized.
 
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SpeedThrills

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Verrrry South Jersey
Thanks for all the suggestions. Especially gungatim.

The pilot light looks as it always has in the several years I've had the heater.

I checked connections and bypassed the stat. It still needs a tap to ignite. Maybe a thermocouple is worth a shot?
The exact replacement is a Mr. Heater 09360. It's $37 to $45 ish. I see others between $10 and $15. What is required?
 
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gungatim

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west mich
i'd try a thermocouple...I've got one on my shop heater that works but takes 10 minutes with a jumbo lighter to put out enough voltage to hold in the pilot valve in. I need to get a new one but don't use it very often.

there is a ton of good info in the doc I posted on thermocouple design.
 

engineer2

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Dec 13, 2009
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Location
Chicago burbs
I opened the gas valve for my fireplace to repair a broken wire. You might have a sticking electromagnet.
Since they are filled with gas while in use, you must leak check them after any repair. Appliance repair guys say to never open them for repair, just replace them.
 
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SpeedThrills

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Jan 9, 2014
Messages
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Location
Verrrry South Jersey
I opened the gas valve for my fireplace to repair a broken wire. You might have a sticking electromagnet.
Since they are filled with gas while in use, you must leak check them after any repair. Appliance repair guys say to never open them for repair, just replace them.
I wouldn't open one either, too much at risk.
 
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SpeedThrills

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It has cycled several times and has worked every time!

On Wednesday, I checked connections and looked at the pilot. The connections seemed okay and the pilot looked as it has for years.

The repair isn't as clear cut as I'd like it to be, but I'll cover what I did. Yesterday, I removed the thermocouple/pilot assembly to blow out the pilot. (As part of some great advice I received elsewhere.)

-The flare nut holding the thermocouple in the bracket was loose. I don't think that mattered though. I don't think it's grounded through there. The entire heater is mounted to wood, no ground.

-One of the thermocouple wires was loose. I MOST LIKELY forgot to re-tighten it Wednesday when I was checking connections. (Old fartitus.)

-I think the problem was: Dust came out of the pilot orifice when I blew it out. That was probably limiting the flame, not warming the TC enough to ignite.

Thanks to all who responded. I very much appreciate the help. Y'all saved me an expensive service call. (And they may have sold me a new valve!)
 
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