Multiple GCs for New Barndo Build

[bL79]

I've got plans submitted to permitting for a new ~2500ft2 barndo build. I've started getting quotes for the build and noticed that one GC seems to have pretty competitive quotes for erecting the structure to wind & water tight but is expensive for finishing and final siding/roofing. Conversely the other GC quote is far more competitive for the finishing phase of the build.

I understand having multiple contractors can cause headache and issues with work split but it seems like if there is a natural break in the build process the "wind and water tight" phase would be it? Basically I'd like to have the one GC build and enclose the structure, then have the other GC take over for exterior and interior finishing.

Has anyone taken this sort of approach before? Kinda seems like the sweet spot between a single GC vs owner/builder hiring all subs.

 

[PCustoms]

Have them re-quote the proposed portions and I bet their price changes.

 

[LXCam]

Nope don’t do it. At a minimum it’s an instant all warranties null n void. Then comes potential for the real fun arguments, schedule delays and extension of schedule costs, etc.

 

[jack stand]

Just talk to them about it.
I wouldn't be afraid to use 2 different guys, just ask. Maybe they have a different level of materials or allowances for bathroom, kitchen, interior doors, etc.
You should be able to get a guy started with the water tight shell to get a couple of clues as to their organization, crew and work qualities that may comfort you for the interior completion beside just simply getting to know them... and them to know you!
They might just think you're the coolest customer ever and work with you some on the interior quote.
Talking is good for both parties as is a good detailed contract and drawings.

 

[bL79]

Hmm yeah my main concern is around responsibility and the handoff. Once the structure is water tight I'm not overly stressed about timeline.

Though what's less clear to me is if how liability/warranty stuff changes. Given the distinction in scope of work I was hoping the permit inspection and some agreements/checks during the transition phase would help avoid these issues.

Raised the idea with the GCs and they're amenable but I need to understand if/how the county views the owner/builder situation.

If nothing else I can at least get paperwork going for the main structure with the first GC and feel out their quality. Ill see if I contract them for the finishing phase as well then all the liability stuff would stay the same. In which case I can do some more research and decide what I'd like to do later

 

[Leaflessshadetree]

I had a contractor do the foundation and shell then I did the interior (insulation, plumbing, HVAC, wiring etc. myself).
I had to keep on them for all the details that they kept saying they skipped to save me money because those things wouldn't be needed for an unfinished building.
Even though I was open and specific about my ultimate plan for a fully finished building.

 

[manwithtools]

No way in hell would I split a build contract like that. Anything the second GC see's as an obstacle will be because of the first GC and your problem $$$. Can you say "change order"? Now that the finish guy knows he's cheaper, be prepared for adjustment to price as work progresses. This is not the way to go.

 

[reader2580]

Normally, a general contractor's job is to provide you with a completed building where the GC does all the construction, and the building owner just writes a check to the GC for the job. A GC may not even do any of the actual construction work, and just subs everything out. I had a custom house built by a GC who contracted out 99% of the actual construction work. The house still ended up very well built, and this GC was basically the same price as another builder who wanted to use lesser materials, but had his own crew for at least the framing.

Normally, you want the building permit taken out by the GC so the GC is responsible to the city to fix any inspection failures. No GC is going to want the permit for the entire building in their name if they aren't doing the whole building from start to finish. If you are hiring various trades yourself you're probably going to have to get the building permit in your name.

If you ask a GC to only do half the job you might find that the price is higher unless they are hungry for work. I was my own GC so I pulled my own building permit. I had the concrete slab and the shell put up by contractors, and then I am doing the rest. The framer missed some blocking in one spot so he failed the framing inspection. He did the right thing by fixing it and scheduling another inspection, but he wasn't technically responsible for the permit and inspections.

 

[Rusted Nut]

Talk about a finger pointing/warranty nightmare. Negotiate for having one GC. I’m a superintendent for a large GC, go with one!

 

[finn]

One guy does the slab, One guy does the framing and rough in and makes it weatherproof. One guy does the electric, one guy does the insulation, one guy does the oh door, etc. You are essentially the GC, with several subcontractors.

People do it all the time, with no issues.

Buying turnkey typically has a cost associated with it, which is what you found out.

 

[nicks78camaro]

I'd rather have one guy responsible for the whole building, but how much different are the quotes?

 

[finn]

One guy does the slab, One guy does the framing and rough in and makes it weatherproof. One guy does the electric, one guy does the insulation, one guy does the oh door, etc. You are essentially the GC, with several subcontractors.

People do it all the time, with no issues.

Buying turnkey typically has a cost associated with it, which is what you found out.

Personally, I prefer to spread things around, and am willing to accept responsibility if something doesn’t go to plan.

It’s all about risk aversion vs personal responsibility.

Guess I don’t like relying on the promises of others.

 

[manwithtools]

One guy does the slab, One guy does the framing and rough in and makes it weatherproof. One guy does the electric, one guy does the insulation, one guy does the oh door, etc. You are essentially the GC, with several subcontractors.

Yes, this is done all the time. Big difference between this and two GC's on the same project doing different phases.

 

[strength_and_power]

Seems like having a “jack of all trades, master of none” type GC could be problematic unless he is subbing it out to the individual trades and just be the ringmaster.

 

[PCustoms]

Seems a lot of people don't understand what a GC actually does...

 

[Hank11]

Unless you have the skill, experience and time to supervise each trade you should have a general contractor on your job. That’s his job and it is why you pay someone to do it. Its hard and there is lots of responsibility involved.

Having two contractors might work out and it might be a huge disaster. If you have never been the GC or superintendent before it is likely you aren’t ready to do it now.

 

[bL79]

Hmm good discussion going so far. Doesn't seem to be a complete consensus. Though multiple GCs does seem to be additional headache, no doubt.

To clarify: My question is not about hiring individual sub contractors. Im curious about hiring one GC to bring the building to wind and water tight and then another GC to finish the interior, effectively 'handy man' tasks largely.

I'm going to ask the structural GC more about final inspections. Basically I'm curious how much of the building needs to be completed for final inspection without me doing an Owner/Builder permit. Does every kitchen cabinet, counter and plumbing fixture really need to be installed under the purview of the singular GC or there is permit/warranty issues?

At this rate I'll probably try to keep it in one GC but it still seems more complicated than necessary. I feel like this should be a perfectly workable solution. I must imagine large commercial jobs have something similar? I don't build houses but this seems like how the rest of the contract manufacturing world works.

1. Plans approved
2. GC1 builds until wind and water tight. Responsible for all inspections through this phase
3. GC2 and GC1 have a mutual inspection and transition sign off after W&WT
4. GC2 completes build. Responsible for all subsequent inspections

Really Im just not keen to sign a contract with >> 100g in counters, cabinets and other non essential items that I'm 1) Not sure which model/designs I'll want yet and 2) would probably prefer to DIY or oversee install anyway. Guess I need to better understand the different inspection phases. Also whatever specific county liability stuff is associated with the different build permits.

Appreciate all the input so far!

 

[PCustoms]

2) would probably prefer to DIY or oversee install anyway. Guess I need to better understand the different inspection phases. Also whatever specific county liability stuff is associated with the different build permits.

Appreciate all the input so far!

Sounds like you either need to be your own GC and wrangle the subs, or have GC #1 hand off a dried in building with all applicable permits closed out.

As to what permits you need for the inside, you'll have to look into that yourself as it's entirely location dependent.

 

[PopcornSutton]

As PCustoms says, you would have to be your own GC/Owner. In order to have less problems, you would need to draw up clear and detail scope of work for each "phase". Overlaps between two contractors could lead to finger pointing. Any holes in your scope of work would have to be dealt with as an add. It may sound unnecessary, but that's the way contracting is done every day. And be sure to add in each phase, final acceptance and full cleanup.

 

[Old tool guy]

It could work well. Get a good set of drawings, have the foundation & shell contractor finish his work. Then have the interior contractor visit the site, examine the shell, and then submit his price.

 

[reader2580]

Personally, I prefer to spread things around, and am willing to accept responsibility if something doesn’t go to plan.

So, I just realized this is a house and garage. My brother acted as the GC for his very large house and I can tell you he spent many, many hours getting bids for labor/materials, and coordinating all of the subcontractors. He also did a lot of the work himself.

If I recall correctly, the building permit when I had my first house built by a custom builder wasn't signed off as final until the certificate of occupancy was issued. The CO wasn't issued until the bathrooms, kitchen, and the like were usable. Now, I hadn't chosen every interior finish when construction started. A lot of the interior finishes had allowances, and I had to pay more if I wanted something more expensive. I don't recall the kitchen cabinets being selected before construction starting.

I find it hard to believe a GC is going to offer the same price to do half the project. They are likely to charge more as the total dollar amount is now less. A second GC for the interior may insist on extra charges if they have to fix any issues caused by the first GC. If it is one GC then the GC would typically cover the cost if the GC, or a subcontractor, screwed up something.

I certainly understand wanting to save money on a building project. I just had a garage built, but I acted as GC and hired out the concrete and framing. I did/am doing the roof, garage doors, electrical, and siding myself.

 

[75gmck25]

If one contractor pours the slab and builds the shell, and then other contractors do the finish inside and install all the appliances and fixtures, you need a good set of plans that explains everything in detail. The initial builder will have to understand what is needed to support the finish work and you will need to monitor that first contractor every day to make sure it's prepared correctly.

The first contractor may build everything using standard sizes for fixture spacing, drains, toilet locations, etc., but after you pick out your custom fixtures, doors, lighting, etc. it may change the thickness of materials, spacing needed for special fixtures, etc. These change orders happen often in most new builds, but at least there is only one GC to work with. It is also one of the reasons change orders are so expensive compared to the initial build (prices like $200-$300 for each additional wall receptacle).

One example of what you will need to know - I built a side addition/porch and wanted the new floor exactly level with the existing living room. I was managing the job myself, and had to know the height of footings, height of the new cement block foundation, ledger board, floor joists, subfloor, underlayment and final wood floor thickness. It all came out fine, but even toward the end I was not positive I had calculated correctly. This is the type of thing the (overarching) GC usually has to figure out.

 

[reader2580]

In the example of my house build, the layouts of things were basically set in stone before construction, but the exact styles of cabinets, flooring, and similar were picked out after construction started.

 

[pembol]

If one contractor pours the slab and builds the shell, and then other contractors do the finish inside and install all the appliances and fixtures, you need a good set of plans that explains everything in detail. The initial builder will have to understand what is needed to support the finish work and you will need to monitor that first contractor every day to make sure it's prepared correctly.

The first contractor may build everything using standard sizes for fixture spacing, drains, toilet locations, etc., but after you pick out your custom fixtures, doors, lighting, etc. it may change the thickness of materials, spacing needed for special fixtures, etc. These change orders happen often in most new builds, but at least there is only one GC to work with. It is also one of the reasons change orders are so expensive compared to the initial build (prices like $200-$300 for each additional wall receptacle).

One example of what you will need to know - I built a side addition/porch and wanted the new floor exactly level with the existing living room. I was managing the job myself, and had to know the height of footings, height of the new cement block foundation, ledger board, floor joists, subfloor, underlayment and final wood floor thickness. It all came out fine, but even toward the end I was not positive I had calculated correctly. This is the type of thing the (overarching) GC usually has to figure out.

This sounds like good advice. It really depends on what you are willing to tolerate in terms of dealing with snafus and the blame game. At minimum you would need a really good and complete set of plans to start with - there are a lot of 'finish' items that depend on specific rough-ins and framing.

From our recent build, examples I can think of are wall finishes - we have smooth walls (no texture) that are often in glancing light, so the framing on those walls needs to be done really carefully so the drywall can be truly flat. A curb-less shower requires specific framing or concrete pouring so the floor can slope to the drain, wall mount toilets require different framing and roughs than floor mount, the framing has to accommodate chases for the HVAC etc

For us is was one GC and architect doing the whole thing, and they were thinking about finishes while doing the framing to make sure things were set up for the finishes. Even so there were some snafus where they had to go back and reframe a few things. As it was all under the GC, he had to own those snafus. With two GCs, you would need to be prepared to have to deal with these sorts of issues yourself.

 

[Joemctag]

It could work well. Get a good set of drawings, have the foundation & shell contractor finish his work. Then have the interior contractor visit the site, examine the shell, and then submit his price.

So,who gets the electrical and plumbing permits and runs those underground and gets them inspected?
Or does the slab get broken up later and those done?
It sounds like you, having gotten the permits, are actually the GC, and those two dry/in and siding guys are subcontractors of yours. I wouldn’t consider them GCs unless you hired them as such.

 

[larry_g]

I've got plans submitted to permitting for a new ~2500ft2 barndo build. I've started getting quotes for the build and noticed that one GC seems to have pretty competitive quotes for erecting the structure to wind & water tight but is expensive for finishing and final siding/roofing. Conversely the other GC quote is far more competitive for the finishing phase of the build.

So what is the total price from each bid? Similar I guess. My son who is a builder related to me this, He bid a building like your proposing and it was from bare ground to completion. He gave a bid that broke out the various tasks from land prep, excavation, building, and the insides. After the bid was in the owner called to inform him he went with *** builders as they were cheaper. Some weeks later he got a call and the guy wanted him to come in and do the dirt work excavation as the other builder did not have that in his bid and didn't do that kind of work. He was given a price for the work and the guy balked because on the original bid it was 1/2 that. Son explained that in the original bid that was part of the build and he could leverage his crew to do more than just dirt, and that move in and out had to be covered by the dirt work alone and not the whole project.

It's likely that the builders have in mind it is *** dollars for the project and then divide that into different sections foundation/shell/finish. That dollar number per section is not the real cost but what is necessary to have the bottom line come out to what whole project costs.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[Jackfre]

This depends upon the relationship you have with these GC’s. As pointed out, you can run the gamut of Owner Build or the multiple GC’s or other permutations of the project. Regardless, you are going to spend a pile of dough. I don’t know your skill level, time to alot for this or your personality/management…style. Net/net it is your project and your dough. I think you, after the time you have spent with the two GC’s, seem to prefer that you are more comfortable with one than the other. This isn’t only about the money. Your sanity and family count in this equation. With multiples anything going sideways impacts the money but also your stress level. You seem to have a number you are looking for with the two guys. I’d suggest you ask the one you like the best of the two to split the difference between the two bids and get moving. Keep your stress level down. With the best guys, this can be a real pleasant experience…or not!