Multiple welder outlets

[600SL]

Hello gang

I'm in the process of wiring my garage. I currently have a Lincoln Square wave 175 TIG welder and may consider upgrading to something larger.

In any case I would like to locate 4 possibly 5 welding plugs along the 48 ft wall of my garage. I would like these to be on one circuit so I can move the welder around. Since I may plan to upgrade I would like to use AGW 1 copper wire capable of 150AMPS and tap in at the 4 stations.

My question is I cannot seem to find a terminal box to tap the AGW 1 wire. I really just need a suitable box with 3 isolated terminals. Maybe I don't know what to call it or something but it seams rather simple. I would prefer a terminal box with just 3 studs that I can place lugs on the wires and attach to.

Any ideas.

 

[Aceman]

Depending on how you do this, it could get very expensive.

What is the largest machine you might consider in the future? Make and model.

 

[600SL]

Depending on how you do this, it could get very expensive.

What is the largest machine you might consider in the future? Make and model.

Well I'm limited by my 200 amp single phase circuit panel. I have heard but not seen of 150amp double pole breakers so I would like to wire for that. Even though so far I can only find a 125 amp breaker.

150 amps would be pushing the limits of a Miller Syncrowave 350 but should work OK with a Dynasty 700 (Wishfull Thinking).

 

[600SL]

The other catch is since my compressor will be at the far end of this line I would also like to run the compressor #8 wires through the same conduit and just passing through each junction box along the way.

 

[Thumper68]

Personally I would not do multipul outlets, I would place the outlet in a central location and make up a cord long enough to reach anywhere I needed it. This is what I did in my shop, I can use the welder anywhere including out side the shop if needed.

 

[JoeFin]

I have this one with a rated demand of 125 amps and its a Beast. But if you need to TIG thick Al. it has its uses

I also have a Lincoln 175 and am fairly happy with it

So I am assuming you want to run #1 copper and tap off of the run in several locations. You might be better off running over head to some thing like a 6"x6"x6" enclosure and then dropping down the wall to your outlet.

You would want a Tap Connector like this

But your not going to find a receptacle for 100 amps. You'll need a "Pin and Sleeve" connector like this

Were talking serious money for these connector set ups ($350 - $500) which might be better spent on reading the code book a little more and buying the right size SO cord instead.

You might remember me and 1 of the other members here had this discussion. The NEC allows you to derate the circuit considerably based on the duty cycle of the machine. While I maintain the conductors in the wall need to be sized properly for circuit ampacity the extension cord to the machine can and should be derated in accordance to duty cycle.

OK - so lets say your welder can consume 100 amps and you have wired in 2ea 100 amp pin and sleeve outlets at either end of your shop. You can then run a 4/3 SOOW extension cord 50 ft for a 40% Duty cycle machine. Or even 6/3 SOOW for an estimated 20% Duty Cycle machine.

Fiqure 6/3 SOOW at $2.50 per ft or 4/3 SOOW at $3.50 per ft

So now you know what you are up against cost wise ...

 

[iagsxr]

Personally I would not do multipul outlets, I would place the outlet in a central location and make up a cord long enough to reach anywhere I needed it. This is what I did in my shop, I can use the welder anywhere including out side the shop if needed.

Our old shop had one welder outlet. I have a 50ft cord that would reach almost anywhere in that shop.

New shop 36' x 48', will have three or four outlets. I'm tired of dragging that cord around and having it laying clear across the floor. One right by the overhead door on the north wall to be able to run welder outside, one or two on east wall, one centrally located on south wall, sounds about right.

 

[600SL]

Personally I would not do multipul outlets, I would place the outlet in a central location and make up a cord long enough to reach anywhere I needed it. This is what I did in my shop, I can use the welder anywhere including out side the shop if needed.

I believe you are probably right on the mark. I just did some research and in anything bigger than 50 Amps requires a plug that cost about $600.00. Which means that any bigger machine than the one I have will defiantly be hard wired.

But I still would like to have multiple outlets for my current machine and two outlets at my welding table for a MIG welder. With that in mind I can defiantly reduce my wire size and deal with a dedicated circuit for a larger TIG when I get it.

 

[600SL]

Our old shop had one welder outlet. I have a 50ft cord that would reach almost anywhere in that shop.

New shop 36' x 48', will have three or four outlets. I'm tired of dragging that cord around and having it laying clear across the floor. One right by the overhead door on the north wall to be able to run welder outside, one or two on east wall, one centrally located on south wall, sounds about right.

Do you plan on putting these all on one circuit. If so do tell.

 

[iagsxr]

Do you plan on putting these all on one circuit. If so do tell.

I can only operate one welder at a time.

That circuit doesn't know how many outlets there are.

Size the breaker so it pops before the wiring's damaged if for some reason multiple machines are ever in use at the same time.

 

[600SL]

I can only operate one welder at a time.

That circuit doesn't know how many outlets there are.

Size the breaker so it pops before the wiring's damaged if for some reason multiple machines are ever in use at the same time.

How did you tap into the #8 feed wire. I would need wire nuts to handle 3 #8 wires.

 

[Speedy Petey]

How did you tap into the #8 feed wire. I would need wire nuts to handle 3 #8 wires.

Big blues can handle 3- #8.
It takes a pretty skilled hand to do it properly though.

 

[pattenp]

Not knowing your location or if you care about your local codes. But as an example in Virginia the residential building code allows multiple outlets on a circuit to be no greater than 20 amps.

 

[600SL]

Big blues can handle 3- #8.
It takes a pretty skilled hand to do it properly though.

I was just at Home Depot. They had the big blues that would do 2#8's and 1 #6. That would work if I ran my wires for the compressor on a separate conduit. Then I could use all #8 otherwise I would need to de-rate for the welder wire and go with #6 wire. Oh well life happens.

I'm trying to run as many conductors through the conduits as possible to avoid drilling holes in girts and frames.

 

[sberry]

Make a circuit in the middle or most convenient place and wire an outlet in its own pipe just for the tig just for this machine.
In its own pipe, then run another for other welders on 8 with a 50A. Probably do the comp with the same wire, I don't recall but the 175 might be a circuit bigger than 50?, 8 wire is fine on it but may need a different breaker than standard, put the outlet in most convenient place and get a little cord.

It wont save any money trying to create a big circuit, its a brain fart for this, I don't mean its dumb but way over thought, put a couple outlets and plug in, go from there and you aint got to be perfect, you can always move a pipe.

 

[Tyberius]

The big copper and connectors cost too much. Just put one overhead by the door to take it outside.

Put some hangers overhead to keep the cord off the floor when using it inside.

 

[sberry]

Why wire up something uncommon just in case,,, all the way the full length of a building? Leave it alone, should the day come that this is a reality then wire the distance needed to it as this is a highly specialized and expensive circuit. Wire up a couple common welder outlets like the rest of us 99% use, a breaker cost 12$ QO and less in Homeline. All the machines he has current will run 8 wire, buy a roll. Wire those and the compressor.

 

[Speedy Petey]

I was just at Home Depot. They had the big blues that would do 2#8's and 1 #6. That would work if I ran my wires for the compressor on a separate conduit. Then I could use all #8 otherwise I would need to de-rate for the welder wire and go with #6 wire. Oh well life happens.

I'm trying to run as many conductors through the conduits as possible to avoid drilling holes in girts and frames.

#6 is bigger than #8, so big blues are fine for 3 -8's.

 

[600SL]

I have this one with a rated demand of 125 amps and its a Beast. But if you need to TIG thick Al. it has its uses

I also have a Lincoln 175 and am fairly happy with it

So I am assuming you want to run #1 copper and tap off of the run in several locations. You might be better off running over head to some thing like a 6"x6"x6" enclosure and then dropping down the wall to your outlet.

You would want a Tap Connector like this

But your not going to find a receptacle for 100 amps. You'll need a "Pin and Sleeve" connector like this

Were talking serious money for these connector set ups ($350 - $500) which might be better spent on reading the code book a little more and buying the right size SO cord instead.

You might remember me and 1 of the other members here had this discussion. The NEC allows you to derate the circuit considerably based on the duty cycle of the machine. While I maintain the conductors in the wall need to be sized properly for circuit ampacity the extension cord to the machine can and should be derated in accordance to duty cycle.

OK - so lets say your welder can consume 100 amps and you have wired in 2ea 100 amp pin and sleeve outlets at either end of your shop. You can then run a 4/3 SOOW extension cord 50 ft for a 40% Duty cycle machine. Or even 6/3 SOOW for an estimated 20% Duty Cycle machine.

Fiqure 6/3 SOOW at $2.50 per ft or 4/3 SOOW at $3.50 per ft

So now you know what you are up against cost wise ...

Thanks for the reply

I think I have to abandon this idea and keep it down to wiring for my current welder #8 wire or # 6 if I want to run it in the same conduit as my compressor. Those taps look like they will do the job.

An upgraded welder will just have to be hard wired with long welding cables.

Thanks John

 

[iagsxr]

You're losing me why running the compressor circuit in the same conduit has anything to do with the welder.

Upsize the conduit so they'll all fit, compressor wires contiguous from panel to compressor.

All they should be doing is sharing a run.

 

[600SL]

Make a circuit in the middle or most convenient place and wire an outlet in its own pipe just for the tig just for this machine.
In its own pipe, then run another for other welders on 8 with a 50A. Probably do the comp with the same wire, I don't recall but the 175 might be a circuit bigger than 50?, 8 wire is fine on it but may need a different breaker than standard, put the outlet in most convenient place and get a little cord.

It wont save any money trying to create a big circuit, its a brain fart for this, I don't mean its dumb but way over thought, put a couple outlets and plug in, go from there and you aint got to be perfect, you can always move a pipe.

sberry

The goal is not to have more than one welder. Its just to be able to move the welder around. I have at this point come to the conclusion that any welder bigger than the one I have will need to be hard wired and therefore a dedicated circuit as you pointed out.

The Square wave 175 draws 72 Amps at 150 Amps in AC TIG mode. Recommended circuit breaker is 125 amps and recommended wire is number 8. I've been using a 70 Amp breaker for years without trouble but I never welded AL at 150 Amps. Yes by todays standards this machine is extremely in efficient.

However with limiting the circuit to #8 or even #6 wire it does appear that having 4 or 5 outlets may be cost effective. I will have to check with the town to see if this meets code. It may have 4 outlets but it is still a dedicated circuit. Lets see how they interpret that.

 

[600SL]

You're losing me why running the compressor circuit in the same conduit has anything to do with the welder.

Upsize the conduit so they'll all fit, compressor wires contiguous from panel to compressor.

All they should be doing is sharing a run.

Yes that is all they will be doing is sharing the run. But in sharing the run it is necessary to de-rate the wires. Therefore to share the run with the compressor the welder wires will need to go from 8 to 6.

Reason to share the run is strictly to reduce hole drilling in girts and purlins.

 

[sberry]

I am not familiar with all the Lincoln models but the 8 sounds right but the 125 doesn't. 8 is limited to 100A. You have been running it at 70, even if you crank it wont have a problem on 100. Simple is good here though, you can see the issues already starting when it gets spun off a bit unconventional and practices that look good in an industrial raceway setting are not always so good at home.
Everything seen at work doesn't translate so well and its simply not needed. I have done the same thing, its how I know.

 

[shelbyz28]

Won't running the compressor wires in the same conduit as the welder wires technically derating both?

 

[600SL]

Won't running the compressor wires in the same conduit as the welder wires technically derating both?

Yes but #8 wires de-rated will still run a 7.5 HP compressor. There just happens to be de-rating room available.

 

[600SL]

I am not familiar with all the Lincoln models but the 8 sounds right but the 125 doesn't. 8 is limited to 100A. You have been running it at 70, even if you crank it wont have a problem on 100. Simple is good here though, you can see the issues already starting when it gets spun off a bit unconventional and practices that look good in an industrial raceway setting are not always so good at home.
Everything seen at work doesn't translate so well and its simply not needed. I have done the same thing, its how I know.

I don't get the 125 either but that is what is in the book. But welders have there own special rules in the NEC.

 

[sberry]

They have some special rules. I know Lincoln has a couple you got to wonder if they were sniffing the circuit board glue when they wrote them up, a couple of their smaller welders are funny. But when we go over 100A the ground and the feed wires need to be 6 I believe.

 

[sberry]

You don't got to run every pipe all the way, in that kind of environment you don't or are not likely to need to run a monster welder everywhere. As I mentioned earlier, get some 3/4 pipe or even inch for some pieces and a couple spools of 8 that would serve the machines you have, making one a home base for the tig, its own circuit, its own pipe, its own breaker and another couple convenience outlets for other 50A machine, or less,,, if I didn't have a 200 class mig its the first thing way ahead of a 350 tig. I would trade a big ole tig for a new 211 anyday. but can run the comp down one of a couple pipes without worry for de rating this or that, makes all this irrelevant, run 10 extra pieces of pipe and go down the whole side twice, make a couple dedicated circuits, buy a box or 50A breakers and one bigger one for the tig, if you want to go all out put number 6 conductors to it. Cost an extra if that 10 pieces and a couple boxes and no special fittings beyond. I would use a number 10 ground wire in pipes with circuits to 50A and increase it to an 8 for the dedicated tig circuit. The farthest point needs a couple pipes, one for 120 and one for some 240.

A guy should be sharp enough to figure some of this in a general scheme to add any load like that near the service, I got a 300 tig and its 4 ft from the panel. Have never had to move it.