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MWBC on single phase

garrett1812

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Recently a neighbor had an issue with the power line to his house. One leg completely went out(line from POCO distribution box to his house had to be repaired). Since he was not using any 240V items they did a temporary fix to jumper over the working leg to the non working leg at the meter. Now wondering if this ever happened at my house, which has several multi wire branch circuits. Would this put too high of a load on the neutral wire, having both branches on the same phase?
 
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mm08822

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If the POCO put that jumper on, then the situation is possible for an o/l'd neutral.
If both circuits on the multi-wire were fully loaded and operating, then you could have 2x rated amount carried on it.
Chances are that both would never be loaded full bore simultaneously. But easily, you could exceed 1x.
 

checkthisout

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Recently a neighbor had an issue with the power line to his house. One leg completely went out(line from POCO distribution box to his house had to be repaired). Since he was not using any 240V items they did a temporary fix to jumper over the working leg to the non working leg at the meter. Now wondering if this ever happened at my house, which has several multi wire branch circuits. Would this put too high of a load on the neutral wire, having both branches on the same phase?

The spot that would most likely get damaged in a "perfect storm" would be the neutral connection at the panel, second being the first connection where the circuit splits.
 

wyliesdiesels

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Recently a neighbor had an issue with the power line to his house. One leg completely went out(line from POCO distribution box to his house had to be repaired). Since he was not using any 240V items they did a temporary fix to jumper over the working leg to the non working leg at the meter. Now wondering if this ever happened at my house, which has several multi wire branch circuits. Would this put too high of a load on the neutral wire, having both branches on the same phase?

Wow thats some sloppy lineman work.

Why not fix the bad connection instead of doing a jumper that just potentially creates more problems.

Doing this temporary jumper can cause more issues including a fire from an overloaded neutral.

Thats opening the Poco up to major liabilities...

We used to run 3 circuits on 1 neutral without any problems.

Let me guess- this was on a 208Y/120 or 480Y/277 service :lol: :lol_hitti

which of course u can share a neutral between all 3 legs.
 
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ForceFed70

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No, it wont overload the N in a branch.

Could you please elaborate?

I see 2 hots sharing a neutral. If these were 15A circuits on standard 14/3 romex that means a potential for up to 30A through the 14ga neutral conductor before a breaker would trip.

Perhaps this is part of the reason why MWBCs breakers need to be tied together? So a PoCo can quickly identify any 240V circuits?
 

wyliesdiesels

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No, it wont overload the N in a branch.

With a MWBC, where the neutral is shared between 2 hots, the 2 hots MUST be from opposite phases(240v potential between the 2 hot wires) to avoid overloading the neutral wire. The current on the hot legs cancels each other out when its even. Thus the current carried by the neutral is only the difference between the 2 hot legs. For example, leg A is 14a and leg B is 12a, so the neutral carries 2a.

If instead the 2 hot legs are from the same phase(no potential between the 2 hot legs) then the neutral, using the same example, is now carrying 26a. Lets say this is #14 wire. The neutral wire is now overloaded by 11a.

Step up to #12 and say 18a on each leg(which if 240v potential would cancel out and neutral carries nothing), the neutral is now carrying 36a. For #12, thats 16a over ampacity and sure to start a fire from overheating and melting.

Could you please elaborate?

I see 2 hots sharing a neutral. If these were 15A circuits on standard 14/3 romex that means a potential for up to 30A through the 14ga neutral conductor before a breaker would trip.

Perhaps this is part of the reason why MWBCs breakers need to be tied together? So a PoCo can quickly identify any 240V circuits?


your math is correct.

And the handle tie requirement has nothing to do with making things easy for the PoCo. Rather code requires all hot legs of an MWBC to be disconnected at the same time so handle ties are required.

If this code wasnt adopted, then u could just use 2 single pole breakers and put them anywhere in the panel. Then when some unsuspecting handyman or homeowner comes along to shut off the power to work on say an outlet, only flipping one breaker off, the other end is still energized. in the example of a split wired dishwasher/disposal outlet, one half of the outlet would still be energized. A seasoned electrician would of course check for power before commencing work but others may not.
 

checkthisout

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If this code wasnt adopted, then u could just use 2 single pole breakers and put them anywhere in the panel. Then when some unsuspecting handyman or homeowner comes along to shut off the power to work on say an outlet, only flipping one breaker off, the other end is still energized. in the example of a split wired dishwasher/disposal outlet, one half of the outlet would still be energized. A seasoned electrician would of course check for power before commencing work but others may not.

What about when two entirely different circuits enter a box?
 

sberry

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Wylie, I will get a pic sometime of the one in my church. The master actually did get one of the mwbc on the wrong leg with a crowded panel full of tandems. It was on hard wired light circuits with 2 or 3A, minor fault in the grand scheme but as you said this whole deal had the handyman well confused.
It is a neat job. I can count 5 electricians, well 3,, ha but I have worked behind all of them and can see the tells,, same fault down the road where handyman made the same mistake for decades.
 

kaffine

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Step up to #12 and say 18a on each leg(which if 240v potential would cancel out and neutral carries nothing), the neutral is now carrying 36a. For #12, thats 16a over ampacity and sure to start a fire from overheating and melting.

Except that #12 wire is actually rated for 30A but is limited to a 20A breaker except under special conditions. So really only 6A overloaded. I still wouldn't recommend doing it but not very likely to start a fire unless there are other issues.
 

wyliesdiesels

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Except that #12 wire is actually rated for 30A but is limited to a 20A breaker except under special conditions. So really only 6A overloaded. I still wouldn't recommend doing it but not very likely to start a fire unless there are other issues.

THHN/THWN is.

NM-b is not.

however 90* c ampacity is for derating purposes only. A wire can never be ran at 90* c ampacities..
 
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