My DIY Plumbing Experience

[topcok88]

So 2020 – the year of the projects. Designed a built a pergola, had a concrete driveway put in, and because I am a glutton for punishment I wanted to add finished space to my basement. In order for me to be able to have a finished drywall ceiling installed without furring strips or losing additional head height I needed to redo some plumbing. See when they built this house they used Zurn PEX with brass fittings in a traditional trunk-and-branch configuration and used hangers on the bottom of the floor joists. I knew I didn't want trunk-and-branch, I knew I wanted a sediment water filter installed and I knew I wanted a new water heater (original was manufactured 2007). After searching for manifolds and systems I found that Viega offered what I was interested in. So SupplyHouse.com to the rescue I ordered everything including my water heater from them.

Packages arrived in good condition. The biggest downside to online ordering for me – for items like hangers, supports and such I order in bulk. So due to over estimation I have enough extra materials to plumb and entire house...

First thing for me was to remove the batt insulation to see what I was working with and laying out the runs. What I don't have pictured is the solid model of my house I made in SolidWorks to mock up all the piping runs for estimates. I used the 3D sketch feature to make the piping runs and it was super easy to stay focused and walk through the process prior to execution.

There are a few hanger options available. Initially I thought about using these to support the piping through the holes... And then I thought of how many bits it would take and quickly moved onto the other options.

That's the one you want!

Notice the interlocking feature to assist in setting them up – super handy.

And this is how it will be mounted on blocking. With 2”x10” joists I can fit one R-13 unfaced batt insulation between the pipe and the floor and one R-13 batt insulation between the batt and the ceiling drywall.

Centers up nicely.

And now to start laying them up – every 32” for support per the manufacture.

There are certain areas I has to sweep it up to fit through the joist transitions.

 

[topcok88]

Sometimes I had to move a bracket or two....

And sometimes I had to reduce the height of the blocking to make corners.

Now onto the filter housings. I chose to use the big blue style filters that are 4.5” x 20”. The are more expensive but I wanted more surface area so I wouldn't have to change them as often. I also ordered multiples of each so I had inventory on hand for future filter changes.

The reason why I removed it from the bracket was to change the flow direction. My inlet is from the right to left. It was sent for a left to right flow path so I correct that.

I put a plywood sheet up to mount the Manabloc to and started pulling PEX – by myself... It took about 10 hours to pull all the PEX and get it ready for termination.

Bend supports are awesome and I would even say required for a clean installation.

I pulled all the lines and left them long where they go.

 

[topcok88]

All those potential leak points on the old trunk-and-branch system – ugh.

Many areas I used the polymer fittings to connect the new and old. I did not replace all connections to the valves because I wasn't going to demo the upstairs. Is it perfect – no but is much better than it was.

Follow the existing pipe and once I switch connections I will go back and cut out all the old piping.

Here is a good example of how to run piping through this fire blocking. Cut a large hole and run four – then use suspension clips to keep it from rubbing the penetration. Here is where many here will cringe – I close cell spray foamed all of these pipes (including waste piping). Yup – its a permanent install.

Also added a Prier hot/cold hose bib in the garage to wash my cars.

Getting closer and almost ready for hookup.... But I was waiting on my water heater.

And it arrived – for anyone that has seen my pergola build and concrete drive way thread. These three builds all happened the last week of June and first week of July. In fact they dropped this water heater off while the guys were outside prepping my driveway.

Make sure you use them copper lines between the water heater and PEX.

Labels make this system great. When it came to hook up time I was able to individually cut and hook up the lines. Made it stress free and only took about an hour to finish.

Stagger the filtration size to ensure you don't load up the finer elements.

And thats a wrap. For those wondering it cost me $4,500 for the Viega tool kit, PEX, manifold, and water heater. So I saved a ton of money doing it myself and really wasn't difficult. I think the only thing I'm going to change in the future is doing a horizontal geothermal well. And I will use a desuperheater with my Rheem Marathon to increase performance and reduce consumption cost.

 

[klassenl]

Interesting. Have you seen or felt any difference at the tap.

 

[topcok88]

Interesting. Have you seen or felt any difference at the tap.

The water heater is much more efficient and my energy consumption is lower (verified by my smart meter).

Hot water gets to the tap quicker due to the better layout - wife is much happier.

Cold/hot water doesn't seem to fluctuate anymore. Previously it would fluctuate as loads increased/decreased across the home.

It has greatly reduced if not eliminated the red mud/sediment from my bored well (2.5' in diameter - 65' deep with 20' of head).

And it is nice being able to individually shut off outdoor spigots during cold weather or being able to shut off areas if doing work on faucets and such.

Hope that helps.

 

[Tim Kennedy]

Topcok88:
Just an observation --- can't tell for sure - but - you should have shut-off valves on the incoming water to the filters & also on the line feeding the monobloc from the filters. Big blues are nice but be warned they are heavy when changing the filters -- you will spill water - no way around it. Why they don't have a built in drain in them is beyond me. Again just an observation -- have changed many of these & there is no way to not spill some water. Almost forgot -- use quality silicone on the o-rings -- not vaseline + do not tighten the housings with the provided wrench - just snug them with the wrench -- don't go ape ****! Nice install for sure + great clean basement -- if you could only see some of the installs I've seen in basements that were better suited for filming horror movies in -- helped one of the techs install a small pressure tank in a pretty big basement with nothing but a 60 watt bulb roughly 30 feet away for lighting - had to use the flashlight on the techs cell phone to see + to top things off when the basement entrance was opened & sun light came in -- not 5 feet away were three snakes coiled up by a freezer that hadn't been opened in a long time.

Sorry for getting off track -just glad I don't do that anymore!

 

[topcok88]

Topcok88:
Just an observation --- can't tell for sure - but - you should have shut-off valves on the incoming water to the filters & also on the line feeding the monobloc from the filters. Big blues are nice but be warned they are heavy when changing the filters -- you will spill water - no way around it. Why they don't have a built in drain in them is beyond me. Again just an observation -- have changed many of these & there is no way to not spill some water. Almost forgot -- use quality silicone on the o-rings -- not vaseline + do not tighten the housings with the provided wrench - just snug them with the wrench -- don't go ape ****! Nice install for sure + great clean basement -- if you could only see some of the installs I've seen in basements that were better suited for filming horror movies in -- helped one of the techs install a small pressure tank in a pretty big basement with nothing but a 60 watt bulb roughly 30 feet away for lighting - had to use the flashlight on the techs cell phone to see + to top things off when the basement entrance was opened & sun light came in -- not 5 feet away were three snakes coiled up by a freezer that hadn't been opened in a long time.

Sorry for getting off track -just glad I don't do that anymore!

Look to the right of the filter housing and you will see the full flow 3/4" ball valve between the pressure tank/well and the filter housings.

On the Manabloc side I just shut the individual ports off and the water heater has two valves (cold feed/hot return) to prevent the water from flowing back from the Manabloc.

The pressure relief valve helps a lot and I haven't noticed any issues when swapping filters out. When I chose the height I made sure I could put a 5 gallon bucket below and it prevents water for going everywhere.

Thanks for checking it out!

 

[Metal-Marc]

Great job!

 

[Tim Kennedy]

topcok88:
I thought there was a valve on the inlet side but wasn't quite sure. Again -- a super nice install & basement. Pentair makes some quality items -- we used a lot of 25:1 micron poly filters in the big blues for a lot of applications. Have seen those housings tightened so tight, we busted the wrench trying to get them loose & wound up using a large pipe wrench to remove -- crazy!

 

[topcok88]

Great job!

topcok88:
I thought there was a valve on the inlet side but wasn't quite sure. Again -- a super nice install & basement. Pentair makes some quality items -- we used a lot of 25:1 micron poly filters in the big blues for a lot of applications. Have seen those housings tightened so tight, we busted the wrench trying to get them loose & wound up using a large pipe wrench to remove -- crazy!

Thank you Mtl.

And I don't use or own a wrench for the housing. I simply lube the ring with a non-petroleum based lubricant to prevent swelling and degradation and spin on hand tight. Never had one leak and never found a reason to tighten it more. I may pick up a wrench for emergency use but I haven't seen a need.

 

[yeldogt]

Nice job.

Like the Viega PEX water system. I always use the Viega non AL O2 PEX for radiant and was going to use the potable water system for my current build .. but, I had a space problem and went with a conventional copper branch system.

My plumber has been using the 3/8 and if you look at the flows and what's required -- the Viega system flows well and it's even faster for getting hot to distant taps with the 3/8. With any of the systems it's the fittings .... some of the systems have more restrictive fittings and not all PEX has the same diameter. He still uses 1/2" to hose bibs and washing machines -- some kitchen sinks ... big tubs.

The Viega plastic fittings are nice .. but you still have the issue at the outlets if you have exposed plumbing ... I often use pedestal sinks and floating vanities so you have to transfer there.

 

[nadogail]

Very Impressive work and write up.

Have you considered submitting something like this project to the DIY magazine publishers?

 

[manwithtools]

Nice work. I have two of the big filter housings like yours. I drilled and tapped the bottom of the filter housings for 1/8 NPT and then installed a small ball valve to drain the housings - it makes changing the filters so much easier and neater.

 

[Tim Kennedy]

manwithtools:
Perfect solution to fix - in my opinion - a defect that the factory should be doing. When the filters in those get saturated + all the water in them with it -- it's nice to lighten the load.

 

[thammel]

This looks really neat! Couple observations and comments...
1) I see an insulation wire support below a pex pipe....seems like you'd want it above. I would worry about the pex laying on the wire and being slightly damaged by the wire.
2)If you have a well with a lot of sediment, look into a Lakos sandmaster centrifugal filter. Get the stainless steel one.
3) I like Rusco filters as the final filter. They have purge valves and you can remove and clean the filter element....it is essentially a fine mesh screen.
4) I don't see a neutralizer or softener so you must have good water!! That's great!

 

[Firebrick43]

Nice work. I have two of the big filter housings like yours. I drilled and tapped the bottom of the filter housings for 1/8 NPT and then installed a small ball valve to drain the housings - it makes changing the filters so much easier and neater.

If you do this remember to use your head. We did this a work but the knuckle head that performed the mod over tightened the tapered fittings cracking them all, not found until pressure reapplied. Also some thread sealants are not designed for plastics, instead use a good thick tape or thread like loctite #55 or blue monster.

 

[Wheelingit]

As a professional and Master Plumber I have to tell you that your work is done better than most plumbers do. Well thought out and you chose the right water heater. Congrats.

One question though. The Marathon water heater requires a vacuum breaker and I cannot tell from the pic if it has one.

 

[topcok88]

Nice job.

Like the Viega PEX water system. I always use the Viega non AL O2 PEX for radiant and was going to use the potable water system for my current build .. but, I had a space problem and went with a conventional copper branch system.

My plumber has been using the 3/8 and if you look at the flows and what's required -- the Viega system flows well and it's even faster for getting hot to distant taps with the 3/8. With any of the systems it's the fittings .... some of the systems have more restrictive fittings and not all PEX has the same diameter. He still uses 1/2" to hose bibs and washing machines -- some kitchen sinks ... big tubs.

The Viega plastic fittings are nice .. but you still have the issue at the outlets if you have exposed plumbing ... I often use pedestal sinks and floating vanities so you have to transfer there.

Yup.

Very Impressive work and write up.

Have you considered submitting something like this project to the DIY magazine publishers?

Thank you. I have not but I try to contribute here, The Wood Whisperer and Obsessed Garage.

Nice work. I have two of the big filter housings like yours. I drilled and tapped the bottom of the filter housings for 1/8 NPT and then installed a small ball valve to drain the housings - it makes changing the filters so much easier and neater.

Interesting thought - I probably won't do that but it would be nice if the manufacture offered that option.

manwithtools:
Perfect solution to fix - in my opinion - a defect that the factory should be doing. When the filters in those get saturated + all the water in them with it -- it's nice to lighten the load.

Yea, it would be nice but also another potential leak path.

This looks really neat! Couple observations and comments...
1) I see an insulation wire support below a pex pipe....seems like you'd want it above. I would worry about the pex laying on the wire and being slightly damaged by the wire.
2)If you have a well with a lot of sediment, look into a Lakos sandmaster centrifugal filter. Get the stainless steel one.
3) I like Rusco filters as the final filter. They have purge valves and you can remove and clean the filter element....it is essentially a fine mesh screen.
4) I don't see a neutralizer or softener so you must have good water!! That's great!

1. What you don't see is my thread about finishing the basement - many of the supports were removed prior to sheetrock.

2. Limited sediment and reserved for times of high precipitation and slight red clay stirring up.

3. I contemplated it but the sediment is too fine to be removed by a reusable mesh screen. (I actually have an auto-backflow type that is sitting in my basement un-used).

4. The water is perfect. Excellent taste with low TDS - perfect for car washing.

If you do this remember to use your head. We did this a work but the knuckle head that performed the mod over tightened the tapered fittings cracking them all, not found until pressure reapplied. Also some thread sealants are not designed for plastics, instead use a good thick tape or thread like loctite #55 or blue monster.

Yea, plastics are finicky.

As a professional and Master Plumber I have to tell you that your work is done better than most plumbers do. Well thought out and you chose the right water heater. Congrats.

One question though. The Marathon water heater requires a vacuum breaker and I cannot tell from the pic if it has one.

Thanks - look at the right cold water inlet. Notice how the black insulated piping cover is slightly higher than the hot water out. That is the factory installed vacuum breaker. It explicitly states in the installation instruction not to remove the device.

 

[JoustingPog]

@topcok88 how long does it take for hot water to get to your tap first thing in the morning?

I recently installed a 36 port manabloc and am seeing ~42 seconds for hot water to first tap... which is longer than i expected since i am in a 2000 sqft house (2 levels), with manabloc about... 8 feet from HWH. Wondering if I am expecting too much...

Plan to measure feet of 3/4 pex between HWH and manabloc, but it is likely about 8-10 feet of 3/4 pex.

 

[topcok88]

@topcok88 how long does it take for hot water to get to your tap first thing in the morning?

I recently installed a 36 port manabloc and am seeing ~42 seconds for hot water to first tap... which is longer than i expected since i am in a 2000 sqft house (2 levels), with manabloc about... 8 feet from HWH. Wondering if I am expecting too much...

Plan to measure feet of 3/4 pex between HWH and manabloc, but it is likely about 8-10 feet of 3/4 pex.

The furthest item that uses hot water is my kitchen sink and faucet in the garage for my pressure washer. The kitchen sink is about 80’ of 1/2” line from the Manabloc to the valve under the sink. It takes about 20-25 seconds to get hot. But my Manabloc is pretty close to my water heater. What is your supply line size? Did you use 3/8 or 1/2? Looking back on it now I think using 3/8 for everything besides shower and wash machine would have been beneficial.

 

[Showkey]

@topcok88 how long does it take for hot water to get to your tap first thing in the morning?

I recently installed a 36 port manabloc and am seeing ~42 seconds for hot water to first tap... which is longer than i expected since i am in a 2000 sqft house (2 levels), with manabloc about... 8 feet from HWH. Wondering if I am expecting too much...

Plan to measure feet of 3/4 pex between HWH and manabloc, but it is likely about 8-10 feet of 3/4 pex.

Not to derail the perfect install post.

Pretty much normal time and a Down side to home runs ………where a return line might not be practical. Want an extra long wait install a tankless heater and the wait can be measured in minutes.

“conventional” runs allow pump or gravity return system for instant hot water at each distant faucet.
Dozens of variation on system design ………some gravity system are simple return line slight below the hot supply line.

 

[csp]

Didn't the original company that built those Manablocs go bankrupt after facing a class action lawsuit?

I had a customer with two of them and the shut off stems sticking out for individual zones were breaking off or stripping so they key would no longer engage them properly. Theirs would have been installed circa 2001-2002.

 

[topcok88]

Didn't the original company that built those Manablocs go bankrupt after facing a class action lawsuit?

I had a customer with two of them and the shut off stems sticking out for individual zones were breaking off or stripping so they key would no longer engage them properly. Theirs would have been installed circa 2001-2002.

The only lawsuits I am aware of are from brass fittings through multiple manufactures (Zurn/Vangaurd) from failures.

 

[nadogail]

Your write up and pictures will benefit many. Plumbing has become very sophisticated over the years and you seem to be leading the pack as we learn to embrace the newest technology.
You have done Great Work

 

[topcok88]

Your write up and pictures will benefit many. Plumbing has become very sophisticated over the years and you seem to be leading the pack as we learn to embrace the newest technology.
You have done Great Work

Thank you. Just trying to share my experience for those who want to learn.

 

[jar944]

As a professional and Master Plumber I have to tell you that your work is done better than most plumbers do.

+2
This was a professional.

 

[mv213]

+2
This was a professional.

Perhaps not for long. What a mess.