To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

My First Sub-Panel

nwav8tor

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 21, 2012
Messages
239
Location
Spokane, WA
Here's my new 125A sub-panel fed through a 100A DP c/b in the lower right of the old 200A main panel right next door:

CIMG2301.jpg


The sub-panel is just for the garage and powers two 15A lighting circuits, a 15A circuit for the BigMaxx heater, three 20A outlet circuits and two 220V outlets (30A and 50A)...

CIMG2307.jpg



Will this look like acceptable work to a reasonable inspector (if there is such an animal)?

It's all CU wire, do I need to use an anti-oxidant compound where the cu wires are terminated on the al ground and neutral bars?

Thanks,
Paul
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

lakee911

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 8, 2012
Messages
53
Location
Columbus, OH
Did you have a rough inspection? If not, the inspector is probably wanting to see how you ran those wires inside of the walls.

The manufacturers instructions should state whether you need to have no-ox (anti-oxident) compound, but if you've got it on hand it's never a bad idea to add it. I usually do.

Get that fiberglass insulation out of there and put in some duct seal if it goes to the outside.

You'll also want to get the paper out of the panel. It looks like you've used a wire as a twist-tie. I'd remove that and use a zip tie if you want to. Wire isn't listed for use as a mechanism for securing cables.

The requirements to reidentify wire is that it must be #4 or larger, but there are some exceptions for multi-wire cables. I see that you have a white wire marked red and that may be a problem if it’s #6 or smaller. Sometimes inspectors will overlook this issue.

What's the size of your grounding conductor?

Make sure you fill out your panel directories too.
 

pattenp

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
10,175
Location
Virginia - USA
The sub panel needs an equipment ground from the main panel. I only see a three wire feed.

Edit: Never mind, I think it's the green tapped wire. Kinda hidden from where it exits the conduit.
 
Last edited:

Steevo

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 18, 2009
Messages
8,738
Location
43.49600, -112.04300
Maybe I just have bad eyes, but WHERE is the ground conductor in the sub ?

I wondered that, too, but there is a black, wrapped in green tape, that is barely perceptible in the photo, following the bundle from panel to panel, and landing on the ground buss at the top of the sub-panel.
 

pattenp

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
10,175
Location
Virginia - USA
One thing I do see that's not correct is the entry of the service into the main panel. There is no visible bushing or conduit end in the knockout.
 

Dan0myte

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 18, 2009
Messages
92
Location
Regina, Saskatchewan
There's no way the old panel was ever inspected. No inspector would ever pass an installation with the main feed wires coming into the box like that.
 

wyliesdiesels

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Messages
19,983
Location
Modesto, CA
A few additional things I noticed:

1) Why does it appear that he has 2 GECs- one bare cu going out the bottom of the main on the left and the other going out the top of the main on the left?
2) Shouldn't the sub have a main breaker since it appears to have more than 6 disconnects, though the inspector may not care about this as its right next to the main!
3) I would remove the white tape that's over the red!
4) I can't tell if the neutral bars are insulated from the main panel enclosure! The main breaker is sitting on the same colored material as the neutral bars so I take that to be an insulator. Its hard to tell!
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

pattenp

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
10,175
Location
Virginia - USA
A few additional things I noticed:

1) Why does it appear that he has 2 GECs- one bare cu going out the bottom of the main on the left and the other going out the top of the main on the left?

One may be bond to the plumbing.

2) Shouldn't the sub have a main breaker since it appears to have more than 6 disconnects, though the inspector may not care about this as its right next to the main!

Sub doesn't need a main disconnect when located in the same structure as the main panel.

3) I would remove the white tape that's over the red!

I see red tape remarking a white wire.
*
 
Last edited:
OP
N

nwav8tor

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 21, 2012
Messages
239
Location
Spokane, WA
OK guys, first of all I'd like to thank all of you for taking the time to look at the photos and post your observations and comments. I'll now attempt to answer your questions and provide clarification...

The original panel WAS inspected by the city 17 years ago when the house was built. The "Passed" sticker is still on the inner side of the cover door.

There IS some sort of platic lip/ring around the main service entry KO (where the fiberglass insulation is). Those wires go right into the meter box on the other side of the garage wall.

The lower bare CU wire from the main panel goes down inside to wall, then exits on the outside of the wall and goes into the ground. I assume there's a grounding rod down there somewhere. The upper bare CU wire goes up into the garage attic, across the joists and down the main house's wall into the basement where it connects to the main water line.

Both panels are Siemens, and neither of the panel information labels mention anything about using anti-oxidant compound.

The paper (warranty info card) has been removed. I did use wire to secure the cables but I thought it was OK since that is what was used in the old "inspected" panel. I'll remove the wire and use zip ties if that's a listed method. The circuit identifying labels are already on the panel covers.

The 100A feed uses three #2 wires and a #4 (all black). The #2 neutral is reidentified with white spiral tape. The #4 is reidentified with green spiral tape. One of the #2 hots has a single small piece of red tape at each end just to make it easier for me to know which wire to tug on when I was adjusting the length of the wire runs. Both the green and white reidentified wires of the main feed are connected to the main panel's grd/neu bar right next to the 100A c/b.

In the sub-panel, the #2 white spiral neutral goes to the neutral lug on the upper right neutral bar. The neutral tie bar was left in place connecting both neutral bars. The green bonding screw next to the neutral lug was completely removed so the neutral bars are isolated from the panel's case. The #4 green spiral ground goes to the upper end of the grounding bar on the left side of the sub-panel.

Reidentifying the #2 neutral and #4 ground shouldn't be a problem since they're #4 or bigger. For the 220V 50A circuit, I used 6-2 romex with a bare ground. The wires in that cable are black and white. Is it a problem that I reidentified the white wire to be spiral red?

For the 220V 30A circuit, 10-3 romex with ground was used with red, black and white wires, so there's no problem there.

Paul
 
OP
N

nwav8tor

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 21, 2012
Messages
239
Location
Spokane, WA
Still looking for answers...

1) If a piece of insulated wire isn't listed as an approved method to securw other wires in an electrical panel, are zip ties OK?

2) I reidentified the white wire of a 6-2 romex cable to be red for a 50A 220V circuit, is that OK?

Thanks,
Paul
 

MrMark

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 25, 2010
Messages
4,626
Location
Southern Cal.
I use zip ties; they are OK as far as I know

That should be fine on #2. I use black but I don't see why red would matter.

VERY nice job. Better than any I have seen around here done by hired hands.

I like how you used the bushings. Most would not have done that.

The only thing I would have done differently is I would have flipped both panels upside down for better wiring. And, that entrance wire obviously is BS, should have a conduit with connector, but you didn't do that.
 
Last edited:

MrMark

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 25, 2010
Messages
4,626
Location
Southern Cal.
also, would not have mixed neutrals and grounds on the main panel. I know it doesn't matter but I like to keep separate for a cleaner look. I know you didn't do that either.

you don't need any antioxidant either. Hell the POCO doesn't even use antioxidant on al wires.

what gauge is that feeder. I hope it's No. 2
 
Last edited:

1500hd

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
94
Location
Mid Michigan
[ And, that entrance wire obviously is BS, should have a conduit with connector, but you didn't do that.[/QUOTE]

There is a box adapter glued to a fitting on the back side of panel.
 

wyliesdiesels

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Messages
19,983
Location
Modesto, CA
Still looking for answers...

1) If a piece of insulated wire isn't listed as an approved method to securw other wires in an electrical panel, are zip ties OK?

2) I reidentified the white wire of a 6-2 romex cable to be red for a 50A 220V circuit, is that OK?

Thanks,
Paul

1) A zip tie is fine

2) You're fine!
 
Last edited:

pattenp

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
10,175
Location
Virginia - USA
1) A zip tie is fine

2) The problem with that is reidentifying wire is only allowed on #4 and larger. The inspector may over look this though!

The #4 and larger is grounded conductors. 200.6. You need to look at 210.5 Identification of branch circuit ungrounded conductors. They can be identified by marking with tape. 2011 NEC.
 

wyliesdiesels

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Messages
19,983
Location
Modesto, CA
The #4 and larger is grounded conductors. 200.6. You need to look at 210.5 Identification of branch circuit ungrounded conductors. They can be identified by marking with tape. 2011 NEC.

O ok. I'm SO tired tonight I guess I misread it online! ZzZZzzzZZ
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!
Top Bottom