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my mac guy is cutting ties with mac

neophyte

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24% is not a ripoff.
It may be an only shot.
ALL of my credit cards and your credit cards have a similar rate.
Miss a payment and find out.
You signed up for them. You know what the fine print says.

Yes, yes, I know. You don't have credit cards. I know you don't use them, I know you never have.
I know you think with that credit record, of no credit, you deserve the very best rates available. This is a collective you not a specific you, and a pre empt to the guys who will come here with their specifics when we're talking of generalities

Do servicemen get special treatment? When you borrow you know what you're getting.


When you sign up for a loan, or sign any contract, it may be legally presumed that you know what the fine print says, and all the specifics of the contract.

The reality is that a large percentage of people who sign contracts or loans have no clue what the fine print says, or what the fine print may mean, or what federal, state, and local laws may also apply to the contract, and/or change the terms of it.

I remember my college made all the graduating students attend a lecture concerning the students obligations to pay back their student loans, after they graduated, not before they signed up for the loans.
 
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that one guy

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Well I scanned this thread, and realize that after the first page almost every post strays further and further off topic.. but let me weigh in anyways.

Opening a tool truck is a bad idea. If the product your selling is quality then it should be built to last 10+ years without needing replacement. So, everytime you sell a tool your potential customer base shrinks.
Granted there will always be the replenishment of worn stock (be it under warranty or not), new tradesmen entering the field that need stock, and the new "latest and greatest" for customers to upgrade their stock. But at the end of the day once Joe Schmoe has bought your "P90X Ratcheting Ratchet" for $100+... he's doesn't need to buy another one from you for years to come.
I'd just rather sell wood to a carpenter or medical supplies to the hospital.
 

kythri

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The reality is that a large percentage of people who sign contracts or loans have no clue what the fine print says

The reality is, interest rates have been legally mandated to be anything BUT fine print for at least a decade or two.

And, if you choose not to read the fine print, then that's YOUR problem, not anyone else's.

Stop signing stuff you don't understand. Stop signing stuff you refuse to read.

read_meme.jpg

WHY WON'T IT READ?!
 

LUKE221

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Junior college... Back in the 90's when it was "cheap" that and worked summer jobs
 

OutsideMachinist

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Not sure how this turned into baby boomers lamenting kids these days. In any case all truck drivers across all tool trucks do this. Hey kid you make 400-500 bucks a week why dont you pay me 100 bucks a week?! Its worth it for your future? You are serious about your career right? If you dont do it you are a hack...
 

defektes

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People being foolish with money is nothing new. The new, the newbie mechanic is the one that pulls the trigger on any purchase. He makes a decision to purchase the product, it is on him. Mac is in the business to make money.

Most mechanic newbies now a days are foolish, they buy everything from the trucks, back in the day most of em used to start out with a Cman set, and add from there.
 

BFHtime

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If people read and underdstood the fine print, most times they would not agree because the conditions are not favorable to the consumer. In some cases a legal expert would have difficulty understanding the conditions. Did you ever read the conditions for a software package.

This would make cash king, but many times cash is not accepted. In some situations people have no other option to accomplish what they want to do, because of the way the financial system is gamed.
 

ducksface

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Not sure how this turned into baby boomers lamenting kids these days. In any case all truck drivers across all tool trucks do this. Hey kid you make 400-500 bucks a week why dont you pay me 100 bucks a week?! Its worth it for your future? You are serious about your career right? If you dont do it you are a hack...

A turd is a turd without regard to generational label. I have no idea of the age of that person who is holding that sign. Could be fifty.
Student loans are not the sole self-screwing of this new generation. A squat load of baby boomers thought they would be marine biologists without checking to see about job availability or pay.

The lament was of young mechanics and their tenacity toward debt and needs and shortsightedness... Exactly as related to the OP.

Screw those guys who in debt themselves without regard.
They say they're men.
Prove it.
 

neophyte

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The reality is, interest rates have been legally mandated to be anything BUT fine print for at least a decade or two.

And, if you choose not to read the fine print, then that's YOUR problem, not anyone else's.

Stop signing stuff you don't understand. Stop signing stuff you refuse to read.

read_meme.jpg

WHY WON'T IT READ?!

The problem isn't always signing "stuff you don't understand".

When renting apartments I would ask for a copy of the lease agreement to look over and review for a day or two before signing. Every rental agent I asked for this wound up with a deer in the headlights look when asked and then would need a half hour or more to make a copy I could take with me to review. I've gotten the same look from cell phone salesman and employers for asking the same thing. All of these required my social security number to check my credit though, despite not being able to present a copy of a standard contract at request to a potential customer.

The problems I've found with most people wanting you to sign contracts containing numerous provisions, is that the person presenting you the contract to sign doesn't even know what some of the provisions say or forgets them, or feels perfectly free to violate them, or includes provisions that violate local state or federal laws and which would be considered mute and unenforceable, or just plain decides to change the provisions at will.


And as far as the OPs mention of MAC and their financing goes, I highly doubt a lot of tool truck drivers would be well enough versed in contract law to adequately advise young mechanics on the verses and vices of the contracts. I don't no what the current situation is with MAC but there was a major lawsuit against them concerning them treating their franchise contracts like toilet tissue.
 

SantaAna12

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Not sure how this turned into baby boomers lamenting kids these days. In any case all truck drivers across all tool trucks do this. Hey kid you make 400-500 bucks a week why dont you pay me 100 bucks a week?! Its worth it for your future? You are serious about your career right? If you dont do it you are a hack...

I agree Outside Machinist. Hack is the same word I would use.

24% is the problem I have.

Usury.
 
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kythri

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By definition, it's not usury if it's not illegal.

24% interest is high, but it's certainly not illegal. And it's really not that uncommon when dealing with high-risk people.
 

neophyte

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By definition, it's not usury if it's not illegal.

24% interest is high, but it's certainly not illegal. And it's really not that uncommon when dealing with high-risk people.

The term "usury" used to mean charging any interest at all. In the more common definition it now means "excessive interest".
 

Sal Bandini

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Usury laws are a joke. What is usury? It is just some arbitrary number defined by the current law.

So if 24% is too high then what is acceptable? I know the typical answer, "I don't know but surely less than that." So it is an arbitrary number.

24% may be within the legal limit today but what if the law is changed to no more than 10%? Then it becomes usury and "wrong". But what if the law says 28% is ok? Now 24% is acceptable.

If 24% is offered and 24% accepted, then that is fair. The person wasn't coerced into accepting the terms. If someone says well that might be the person's only choice, then that means the person will probably pay that anyway. If the rate is regulated to a low amount then the seller will not sell the product because of the credit risk of the buyer. So the buyer either goes without, or if he really really needs it, then he has to go to a loan shark, who will be much more than 24%.

If a person is foolish enough to buy something at 24% and not realize the consequences then he deserves it.

"A fool and his money are quickly parted."
 
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neophyte

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Usury laws are a joke. What is usury? It is just some arbitrary number defined by the current law.

So if 24% is too high then what is acceptable? I know the typical answer, "I don't know but surely less than that." So it is an arbitrary number.

24% may be within the legal limit today but what if the law is changed to no more than 10%. Then it becomes usury and "wrong". But what if the law says 28% is ok? Now 24% is acceptable.

If 24% is offered and 24% accepted, then that is fair. The person wasn't coerced into accepting the terms. If someone says well that might be the person's only choice, then that means the person will probably pay that anyway. If the rate is regulated to a low amount then the seller will not sell the product because of the credit risk of the buyer. So the buyer either goes without, or if he really really needs it, then he has to go to a loan shark, who will be much more than 24%.

If a person is foolish enough to buy something at 24% and not realize the consequences then he deserves it.

"A fool and his money are quickly parted."

Shouldn't this apply to the guy who loaned money to the "deadbeat" and can't get it back.
 

iminocca

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24% interest rate or not, if I were quitting one company and striking off in another direction I wouldn't want my customers that may really like MAC tools to patronize the next guy or gal that buys my territory. I might want to "poison the well" a little...or a lot. Assuming I'm going out on my own and selling different brands of comparable price and quality and I really need to keep my sales numbers up, how do I keep selling big ticket items? I offer financing...maybe its GE Capital, or some credit card company. If my customers are quick about paying off the debt, say paying a $1200 bill off in four months, the difference in interest between 12, 24, or 29% isn't that much. Over two years yes...different story. So really, if my survival depends on selling you "a truly great investment you your career and future" and you are willing to pay more to make it happen right now rather than save you money I'm going to help you make it happen.

This isn't always a bad thing either. Many years ago when I was working carpenter, some lowlifes broke into my truck and stole almost $5k in tools. This was in the early 80's and that was A LOT of money to me and I wasn't a saver so I didn't have any money to buy new tools. I had to replace about half of what I had right away using credit cards just to keep working. I sucked, I survived, thank God for credit!

Today I don't use credit, live on about a third of what I make, and I have more peace and security in my life. That wasn't always possible. I bought a lot of tools on credit when I was young and it always worked out for me...it's not for everybody but I don't believe it's inherently immoral either.
 

DieselSaves

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Real world:

Sheep are for shearing.

Ultimately, without variation, those young men are offered two real, no need to modify for cultural differences anywhere in the world, choices.

Do or Don't.

Your dealer has other problems. One might be saving the world at the cost of his kids/family future.

His case made to quit screams of his own credit problems. The rate is of no concern of his. ANYONE can buy the tools used and negate the interest and 75% of retail AND taxes at the regulative magistrate, city or county or state, rates.

The fact that young men without any other way to purchase tools are shopping on a truck, using the only possible credit afforded to them....

Trucks are predatory on their own regardless of interest rate OFFERED, NOT DEMANDED.

You've heard one, completely self centered and predigested and rehearsed reason for him quitting.

About him wanting to do the right thing and the company not;
The company could just not offer the credit. Would that be the right thing to do? Deny a tool, and a guy lose his job because of not being able, under the last possible resort, acquiring the tool?

'do the right thing guy' might want to consider loaning those mechanics his personal money. Afterall, that is the ultimate right thing to do....
Because either he does that, or his NEW truck will have essentially the same interest rate on tool loans.




Back to your regular programming....

I should resist. Really I've done pretty well since I read through this thread yesterday. I fought the urge to coment but alas, I am weak. I own a couple high horses myself so this really isn't self righteous but I am frustrated by the high minded poo-pooing of we proles by our educated friends here.

I was fortunate to resist the college scams so many of my friends fell for. As a natural cynic, I realized all the college bound hopefuls were swelling an already top heavy industry so I opted for work and tech school. Manual labor required tools to be better and tools required debt for me. I went in with eyes open and have carried a tool truck balance for at least a dozen years.

If we really want to talk about shearing sheep we should look at modern American medicine and the life changing debt that can bring to a family. I know, sheep choose to go to the doctor and doctors are good people and we know how much it costs and its no ones fault and now it's all better and we need the help and we have to.

I have paid for more doctors vacations on behalf of my family than tool truck bonuses. Is that a choice?

That's what I would post.
 

Steinmetz

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"...Also a testament to how much college is pushed on people…"

Precisely who is pushing you?

None of the institutions I attended were easy to get into.
 

kythri

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"...Also a testament to how much college is pushed on people…"

Precisely who is pushing you?

None of the institutions I attended were easy to get into.

There is a narrative being pushed in today's society that everyone needs a college education, otherwise, they have no future.
 
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ducksface

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That narrative is designed to get stupid parents to spend enormous amounts of money on their equally stupid children.

The sheep love it.
'all I have to do as a parent is to get Jr sheep to sign loan documents and his sorry *** will be out of my house forever! '

No one, even half bright, falls for that ****.

It's called churning.
When you stir the **** pot hard enough some **** splashes out (as in the occasional sheep catches a break or shines).

All the rest just gets stirred. Rise enough to be a little ahead? No problem. We'll stir until you don't. Maybe the stir spoon is college for your mediocre kid, maybe it's the lure of shiny tools you don't need, a big screen $4000 TV when you make $2500 a month gross, maybe it's spending your tax return on a trip to the 'must see' giant hole Grand Canyon.

The economy is about loosening your purse strings... Nothing else.
 
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Steinmetz

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I forgot about corinthians shutting down.

I'm for student counselors(they are the exact case for low pay and high educational debt and they may subconsciously act upon the misery loves company/I'm sssoooo Grand theory when screwing you over) being regulated as rightly as mortgage brokers and stock brokers. Clear down to perfect credit or you lose your job.

You do continuous and legally binding education or you lose your license forever.

I do not think mortgage guys are much different in sway and wiles than career counselors.

"Corinthians" is a truck driving school. They admit anyone who responds to a TV ad.
 

yaidunno

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Can't talk particulars? that's fine.

Particulars? Here's a little one:

DebtSince2003v4_0.png


Granted, its a product of both higher tuition costs and more and more sheep attending their $20,000+ per year "institutions".

As for me, I'm just your run of the mill Mechanical Designer with a 2 year degree. No fancy "PE" for me, I'm just a dummy. Zero debt from tuition. Funny thing is, I've dealt with a good number of people with their 4 year Engineering degrees who couldn't design their way out of a cardboard box. Such is life i suppose.

BTW, whats with the strange Charles fetish?
 

ducksface

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Particulars? Here's a little one:

DebtSince2003v4_0.png


Granted, its a product of both higher tuition costs and more and more sheep attending their $20,000+ per year "institutions".

As for me, I'm just your run of the mill Mechanical Designer with a 2 year degree. No fancy "PE" for me, I'm just a dummy. Zero debt from tuition. Funny thing is, I've dealt with a good number of people with their 4 year Engineering degrees who couldn't design their way out of a cardboard box. Such is life i suppose.

BTW, whats with the strange Charles fetish?

The chart is self serving and pretty much designed to stir ****.
If student enrollment is up forty percent, and they are rolling non paid in full graduates from ten years ago in to their new yearly number, which they are indeed doing, the chart has no place to go but up because 2013 captures the 2012 outstanding numbers plus new enrollment plus tuition increases.

It's a nice chart, it is basically factual. If it had percentage of enrollment variables and discluded defaults and deaths, which it does not, then the numbers would be much different.

We stir this particular pot because it keeps a percentage of our youths out of the job market, further kicking that can down the road, and it employs a huge percentage of people to do it.

I can say, and build an impressive chart:
If your parents didn't have children the great chances are that you will not have children.
And half of society will see it as a revelation.

Please see the terms
Non farm related employment
Disclusion of car and housing payments and food payments.
 
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yaidunno

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I'm not saying the chart is flawless. It, and many graphs, charts, and statistics are skewed by unaccounted factors. I posted it as a reference, not chiseled in stone data.

My argument was simply that there is a higher percentage of students attending 4 year colleges that have higher tuition costs than in the past. (enrollment up 10-11%) This being brought on by the mindset instilled in young adults that a 4 year degree is the way to go. Getting your hands dirty and manual labor is for lesser beings in this "day and age". Having graduated high school in 2006, i can vouch for that.
 

Sal Bandini

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I'm not saying the chart is flawless. It, and many graphs, charts, and statistics are skewed by unaccounted factors. I posted it as a reference, not chiseled in stone data.

My argument was simply that there is a higher percentage of students attending 4 year colleges that have higher tuition costs than in the past. (enrollment up 10-11%) This being brought on by the mindset instilled in young adults that a 4 year degree is the way to go. Getting your hands dirty and manual labor is for lesser beings in this "day and age". Having graduated high school in 2006, i can vouch for that.

You picked a bad chart for your argument then. It shows debt vs year. I don't see any axis with percentage on it.
 

ffast65

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very interesting thread. As a college grad as well as savy mechanic, it boils down to return on investment and selfcontrol. Lenders will own for tools homes cars education furniture credit cards etc, as long as "you" agree to thier terms. Volks, these terms are all designed for revenue generation and no one is forced to sign up. All the terms are negotiable. They love when you sign up for credit especially on mortagages.... Talk about being owned.... While Im middle aged thankfully with never an college debt, I know many that are not so fortunate.
 

Sal Bandini

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Let's not forget an even worse thing the local governments push: state lotteries.

I don't see many complaining about that but you have virtually a zero percent chance of winning. That's lower than the dummy's chances of making something of his college degree.

And not much down the list is casinos.
 

yaidunno

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You picked a bad chart for your argument then. It shows debt vs year. I don't see any axis with percentage on it.

The statistics on the chart are largely (but not completely) influenced by higher numbers of enrollment and higher tuition costs. I didn't realize that it needed to be spelled out.
 

Sal Bandini

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The statistics on the chart are largely (but not completely) influenced by higher numbers of enrollment and higher tuition costs. I didn't realize that it needed to be spelled out.

Well it does. Your assumptions do not show that a higher percentage of kids are going to college or that colleges have higher enrollments now.

What is the population experienced a big boom? What if the college costs increased so much that it overshadowed the population increase? The chart is meaningless in this debate. It just shows that college debt is rising every year.
 

yaidunno

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Well it does. Your assumptions do not show that a higher percentage of kids are going to college or that colleges have higher enrollments now.

What is the population experienced a big boom? What if the college costs increased so much that it overshadowed the population increase? The chart is meaningless in this debate. It just shows that college debt is rising every year.

Your right, I'm an idiot. I will do my best from now on to have my data be 100% accurate and include a 12 page summary of how i acquired my data and to prove its validity. I strive to be as perfect as you some day sir.

This is why i try and stay out of **** like this. I should know better by now, but here i am.

Back to being a knuckle dragging hack in my garage.
 

Sal Bandini

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Your right, I'm an idiot. I will do my best from now on to have my data be 100% accurate and include a 12 page summary of how i acquired my data and to prove its validity. I strive to be as perfect as you some day sir.

This is why i try and stay out of **** like this. I should know better by now, but here i am.

Back to being a knuckle dragging hack in my garage.

I never called you an idiot. I said your data didn't support your argument.
 

flyingtpot

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As for me, I'm just your run of the mill Mechanical Designer with a 2 year degree. No fancy "PE" for me, I'm just a dummy. Zero debt from tuition. Funny thing is, I've dealt with a good number of people with their 4 year Engineering degrees who couldn't design their way out of a cardboard box. Such is life i suppose.

Better hope the med device engineer designing the test equipment being used on you in ICU has more than a two year degree. :bounce:

I've opted (wouldn't take them on the to the project team) out to 'deal' with many two year degree pseudo engineers that thought they were well versed engineers. Zero debt from tuition on a two year degree doesn't automatically equate even closely to being a competent Mechanical Designer.
 

67King

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Wow, lot of stuff in this thread.

First of all, I guess I would say that folks would be better served by looking at the tool trucks as a service provider. The service they provide is a convenient way to get quality tools in a very timely manner. That carries a very high price tag, both in sales price and in interest rate for those who do not pay cash. If folks were just buying tools, they would be MUCH better off either taking out a loan (preferably secured so as to get a lower rate) if they can't pay cash, and to buy the industrial versions or less expensive brands. Yet they willingly pay for the tools, and from my experience it isn't just mechanics starting out. Two friends of mine have technical degrees (one and engineer, the other computer science), have been mechanics for 10-15 years, still buy tools off of the truck, and praise the option to finance. Not for me, but I don't turn wrenches for a living. Of course, I can see why after I got my daily driver half torn apart to change the spark plugs, only to find out the plugs are 12 point, and the bolts holding down the coils are freakin' female torx, so I had to go order another couple hundred dollars worth of tools which will delay the job by a week (end rant).

Certainly it is really easy to sit back and blame others for not reading the fine print. For not understanding how interest works. But then if we start asking WHY they do that, then it gets more complicated. In my opinion, one of the great failings of our education system is that it completely and totally fails to teach personal finance. This will have perhaps the greatest impact on the greatest number of people of any subject taught. I think most of the stuff that is taught is important, but that one is just ignored.

For some reason, our society has holistically decided that it would rather deal with the impact on the back end than on the front end. Rather than make as many of its citizens self reliant as it can, it puts out a bunch of people into society who invariably get themselves in unmanageable positions. And we deal with it by paying higher interest rates ourselves, drastically increasing the size and scope of government in our lives, and a tax structure that serves to transfer wealth.

Our society has been pushing increased college attendance for decades. At least back t othe days of automation in the 80's, when we'd say that we will still need workers, only they'll need to be more skilled (shoot, the whole Terminator thing was playing on the fear that robots would take over). That data is out there for anyone to see thanks to the wonders of Google. It is part of our culture, everyone wants for their kids to have better lives than they had. Our culture has embraced the notion that this means education. As a result, college enrollment figures now stand at close to 70% (high school grads that go to college - it was closer to 60% when I was at that point in the 90's). That invariably puts out graduates who aren't going to work in the field of their degree. And yes, tuition costs have skyrocketed, and there has been a huge increase in student loan debt, and the number of administrators per student has doubled in the past 20 years, and colleges are building more and more and more ameneties in an arms race to attract students. If you don't see this, then you need to go step foot on a college campus and see where dorms are now apartments, and student athletic complexes are way beyond just free weights and basketball courts, to where they now offer rock climbing walls and indoor Olympic size pools.

It is evident even in our military, where one now has to have a high school diploma to join. I have 3 degrees (two engineering and an MBA), yet my personal take on this is that our society in general has completely and totally lost its respect for skilled trades. I'm sorry, but we send WAY too many people to college. And while it used to take a college degree to have a chance to advance in the corporate world, now it takes an advanced degree. Just like the Air Force and vision - just a simple tool to weed out a section of the population to get the batch of candidates to a manageable level.

Anyway, like I said, it is easy to criticize folks who don't understand the impact of interest rates. But many people who understand the impact of some things have a conscience, and do something about it. Be it car salesmen who leave the profession (I've had 2 friends who did just that), or this particular tool truck guy who feels that his customers are his friends, and feels that he can't take advantage of their ignorance. I applaud the guy and wish him luck.
 

ducksface

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It is easy to criticize them.
They deserve critical review.

I deserve critical review of my welding skills.
I don't whine on public forums about 6013 not being fair and I should be able to weld uphill with it because I just won't pay for the uphill stuff.


If they open their mouth and are incorrect, it is our responsibility to fill their head with what's right until they close their mouth.

Your whole argument about the guys quitting their jobs is not going to stand well.
Truck guy could personally carry the paper, or supply credit union applications.
So now we're done with that high moral excuse.

Your friends who quit the car business:
You know one highly filtered minute or two, maybe an hour of semi rehearsed justifications from one of myriad sides of the story.



I'm not being harsh, I'm negating your argument that mere men have such high morals as to hunger their family over someone else's inability/(or does indeed know, and for personal gain, refuses) to work within the most basic rules in life... So I'll burden myself and my family with the surest ineptitude I can find outside my family.
Mere men use mere morals, used by that mere man as a weapon, as an excuse, to flatter themselves in the light of others.

What was your friends to say?
'I am really inadequate at a mundane and perfectly morally acceptable, time tested, risk be known to all parties, highly highly regulated, licensed, warned of pitfalls for consumers almost daily throughout their entire lifetime, comparatively well paying job and system?'

Because that's what happened. They couldn't do the job based on time honored princes and contract law.
 
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