Mystery electricity supply troubleshooting

[s14kev]

Came across an interesting problem today and would love any suggestions on how to troubleshoot this. I'm certainly no electrician. We just purchased 9 acres with a house and barn. House has a main service panel with three subpanels. Subpanel 1 supplies main home, subpanel 2 supplies geothermal and subpanel 3 supplies a garage addition. Subpanel 3 has a 220 breaker that seems to supply power to another subpanel in the barn. Barn is 200ft from the house. There is a well head 50ft from the barn with a valve box containing electrical supplying the well pump via a pressure switch and a separate water shut off valve.

We were told that the well never really produced much water which is not a problem since the house is on city water. The well was only used for garden/pasture irrigation. I just noticed today that the pump is on in the well splashing around as i guess the groundwater level has dropped. I flipped off all the breakers in the barn panel and the well pump still runs. I turned off the main switch on the main service panel effectively killing all power to the subpanels and the well pump is still running. WTF? Where is this mystery power coming from. The meter stops once the main panel is turned off so it's not coming from there. Home is 500ft from the road in the center of the 9acres and the closest neighbors home is 500ft away so I'm guessing it's not coming from them. Any suggestions on how to turn off the well pump? Well pump valve box has a pressure switch wired in to the romex supplying the well pump. I don't know how these work but don't want to touch live wiring unless I can turn off the breaker. Is the pump going to burn out splashing around continuously with the water level low? Suggestions appreciated!!!

 

[njride]

Did someone tap the line side of the meter?

 

[walta]

If the pump is running and power meter is not it must have been connected incorrectly before the meter.

If you bring this to the unities attention they are more likely handle the outstanding bill nicely.

PS Since it is connected before the meter and is unlikely to be connected with wires capable of handling the full 600 amps from the auto resetting breaker supplying the pump any mistake or fault would be a life changing event.


Walta

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Only way thats possble is a line side tap before the meter pan.

Take pics of the meter pan

 

[Ironcrow]

I had one of these on one leg of an electric water heater. Some Einstein had shorted the fuse socket behind the holder. Sort of like a penny under the fuse, but totally stealth. It took some head scratching to find that one.

 

[s14kev]

Did someone tap the line side of the meter?

How do I tell? I'm not familiar with how something like this would look. I can't image the previous owner do something illegal especially to feed a low power consumption item like a well pump but you never know.

 

[s14kev]

I'll shoot some photos when I'm back out at the property. Anyone familiar with well pump pressure switches. Is there any way of safely turning the pump off at the pressure switch without disconnecting power? It's a square D style switch. Looks identical to this one from home depot:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-...ump-Water-Pressure-Switch-FSG2J24CP/206398813

 

[BillK]

Maybe I am way too trusting but If you just purchased the property I doubt that the utility would do anything nasty if you called them and asked them to take a look at it. That's what I would do. Either that or call an electrician.

Have you pulled the cover off the panel in the barn to see if that is where the feed goes ?

Either way I would want it shut off so the motor doesnt burn up or worse.

 

[American Locomotive]

Are you sure the pump is splashing, and you're not hearing ground water? I've heard some wells have flowing water sounds before with no pump running.

 

[cbacres]

I agree with the above. Is there a valve at the well? Just turn it off and let t should shut pump off. The pump is not going to run because water level dropped, it'll run due to pressure drop or just manually turning it on.

Check for voltage on terminals on pressure switch while all panels are off.

I agree with pulling panel cover in barn or just going through off/on process of the breakers in that panel while checking with a meter at pressure switch.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I'll shoot some photos when I'm back out at the property. Anyone familiar with well pump pressure switches. Is there any way of safely turning the pump off at the pressure switch without disconnecting power? It's a square D style switch. Looks identical to this one from home depot:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-...ump-Water-Pressure-Switch-FSG2J24CP/206398813

Ive worked on pressure switches for years.

Theres no on off switch if thats what youre asking.

Can you trace the branch circuit wires?

 

[s14kev]

Are you sure the pump is splashing, and you're not hearing ground water? I've heard some wells have flowing water sounds before with no pump running.

Definitely running. Unmistakable motor sound. Coming from the well with the cap cover off.

I agree with the above. Is there a valve at the well? Just turn it off and let t should shut pump off. The pump is not going to run because water level dropped, it'll run due to pressure drop or just manually turning it on.

Check for voltage on terminals on pressure switch while all panels are off.

I agree with pulling panel cover in barn or just going through off/on process of the breakers in that panel while checking with a meter at pressure switch.

I'm guessing you need water being pumped to build enough pressure in the outgoing water line of the pump to shut off the pressure switch. I believe the groundwater level has dropped with just part of the pump now submerged so it can make splashing sounds but not build pressure. Hence it keeps running since the pressure switch is really just reading air in the water outlet line.

Ive worked on pressure switches for years.

Theres no on off switch if thats what youre asking.

Can you trace the branch circuit wires?

Definitely no on off switch but there are two adjustment nuts which I guess adjust the pressure the well pump switches on/off at. Anything that can be done to those to turn it off? I can't trace the wires because all electrical lines (and water lines) are buried since the well is 50ft from the barn.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

clamp ammeter - is there power flowing to the pump or not?
buy one at the local hardware store - get some data.

 

[s14kev]

clamp ammeter - is there power flowing to the pump or not?
buy one at the local hardware store - get some data.

Definitely power flowing to the pump. Didn't need a clamp ammeter. My Klein non-contact circuit tester lights up when put next to the romex even with the main service panel to the house turned off. If there was not power and the pump was running I'd be calling ghostbusters and posting this on some kind of "paranormal-forums.com" not garagejournal.

Another weird electrical issue noted in the same house is that a bathroom GFCI outlet (audible buzz type) trips randomly even though there are no items plugged in to the outlet. I assume faulty GFCI just needs to be replaced?

 

[njride]

Definitely power flowing to the pump. Didn't need a clamp ammeter. My Klein non-contact circuit tester lights up when put next to the romex even with the main service panel to the house turned off. If there was not power and the pump was running I'd be calling ghostbusters and posting this on some kind of "paranormal-forums.com" not garagejournal.

Another weird electrical issue noted in the same house is that a bathroom GFCI outlet (audible buzz type) trips randomly even though there are no items plugged in to the outlet. I assume faulty GFCI just needs to be replaced?

The gfci couldbe protecting other receptacles on the load side

 

[s14kev]

The gfci couldbe protecting other receptacles on the load side

Ah I forgot that was pretty common here. Guess I'll have to take a better look at what is downstream from that outlet.

 

[AntonLargiader]

If you can turn off the main and get no trace of power in any of the subpanels, then I'd say there's a chance it is fed from an adjoining property. It would be really odd to be undiscovered for that long, but...

For safety's sake I think you do need to get to the bottom of it.

 

[Dagny]

can you ask the previous owner?

 

[walta]

Before you call anyone test the pump with a real volt meter. Non contact stuff is safe but not always accurate. Also it sounds like the pump is running is not strong enough evidence to go around suggesting a crime is being committed.

Walt

 

[u3b3rg33k]

Definitely power flowing to the pump. Didn't need a clamp ammeter. My Klein non-contact circuit tester lights up when put next to the romex even with the main service panel to the house turned off. If there was not power and the pump was running I'd be calling ghostbusters and posting this on some kind of "paranormal-forums.com" not garagejournal.

Another weird electrical issue noted in the same house is that a bathroom GFCI outlet (audible buzz type) trips randomly even though there are no items plugged in to the outlet. I assume faulty GFCI just needs to be replaced?

a non-contact voltage tester does not tell you anything about current flow.

 

[Milton Shaw]

Post your location someone on GJ may be close enough to give you a hand checking it out. Have you checked to be sure your meter base doesn't have breakers in it. I have seen some strange ones in certain areas that are fairly old. Pull your meter and see if the well pump goes off as a last resort to see if you are paying for the power.

 

[SGKent]

I'd call the last owner thru the escrow or their real estate agent if you don't know how to reach them.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Definitely no on off switch but there are two adjustment nuts which I guess adjust the pressure the well pump switches on/off at. Anything that can be done to those to turn it off? I can't trace the wires because all electrical lines (and water lines) are buried since the well is 50ft from the barn.

you would not be able to adjust those down to zero...

Definitely power flowing to the pump. Didn't need a clamp ammeter. My Klein non-contact circuit tester lights up when put next to the romex even with the main service panel to the house turned off. If there was not power and the pump was running I'd be calling ghostbusters and posting this on some kind of "paranormal-forums.com" not garagejournal.

A non contact tester can give false positives due to inductive current.

try testing the terminals on the pressure switch with a DMM

 

[Dagny]

Say the check valve is bad so when you turn the power off water pressure flows back thru the vanes spinning the pump backwards. should stop when the tank is empty.

 

[CoogarXR]

Got a metal detector? You can use that to trace the wire through the yard (provided the detector has a good depth capability). Or, if they were redneck enough to tap an unfused feed somewhere, they probably didn't bury it very deep. It might be near enough to the surface that a cheapie metal detector will pick it up!

 

[Mr_fixit]

Take a picture of the circuit box with the door open. I've seen some old weird square d boxes where the main only turns off about half the breakers. They were designed that way, but I don't know why.

I'd definitely pull the meter , at some point.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Take a picture of the circuit box with the door open. I've seen some old weird square d boxes where the main only turns off about half the breakers. They were designed that way, but I don't know why.

I'd definitely pull the meter , at some point.

Thats called a split buss panel.

6 double pole breakers at the top, one of which is the main

Numerous single and double pole breakers at the bottom.

It was an engineering trick to get out of having a large main breaker because of the 6 handle rule.

 

[Aceman]

Call an electrician that has a locator.

I'm betting this would be sorted out in less than an hour.

 

[Sevenhills1952]

Many years ago a fellow I worked with bought property that had a power pole on it that had a live wire hanging off of it. It wasn't on his meter either. He wired an outlet on it and used it occasionally for his table saw. [emoji23]

Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk

 

[s14kev]

you would not be able to adjust those down to zero...



A non contact tester can give false positives due to inductive current.

try testing the terminals on the pressure switch with a DMM

Say the check valve is bad so when you turn the power off water pressure flows back thru the vanes spinning the pump backwards. should stop when the tank is empty.

Did some trouble shooting today. The GJ collective knowledge base does it again! Gold stars to Dagny and wyliesdiesels. Seems the wire is not live. Not sure why my non contact voltage tester consistently goes off but there is definitely no current when tested with a clamp ammeter. The well casing is steel so perhaps something about it sets off the non contact tester without really having any current in the circuit. Strange. With a little more of a close look, it seems them pump is making a whirring noise due to backflow draining OUT of it! Whodathunk!?

 

[American Locomotive]

Did some trouble shooting today. The GJ collective knowledge base does it again! Gold stars to Dagny and wyliesdiesels. Seems the wire is not live. Not sure why my non contact voltage tester consistently goes off but there is definitely no current when tested with a clamp ammeter. The well casing is steel so perhaps something about it sets off the non contact tester without really having any current in the circuit. Strange. With a little more of a close look, it seems them pump is making a whirring noise due to backflow draining OUT of it! Whodathunk!?

Remember, clamp on ammeters only work if you clamp on one of the conductors. If you clamp over both (say over a whole piece of romex), you will not get a reading. The easiest and most surefire way would be to pop the cover off the pressure switch and simply measure the voltage between L1 and L2.

Also, can you see the well pump? Most submersible well pumps are usually placed anywhere from 50-200 feet down the hole. So it'd be unlikely you'd be able to hear the pump whirring.

 

[JRas]

I wouldn't trust a non contact tester, false positives often. They're quick and nice for a wall recep or switch that's about it.

Is there a junction box or sub-panel near the well?

Post up some photos when you get a chance.

 

[AntonLargiader]

With a little more of a close look, it seems them pump is making a whirring noise due to backflow draining OUT of it! Whodathunk!?

Where's that water coming from?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Did some trouble shooting today. The GJ collective knowledge base does it again! Gold stars to Dagny and wyliesdiesels. Seems the wire is not live. Not sure why my non contact voltage tester consistently goes off but there is definitely no current when tested with a clamp ammeter. The well casing is steel so perhaps something about it sets off the non contact tester without really having any current in the circuit. Strange. With a little more of a close look, it seems them pump is making a whirring noise due to backflow draining OUT of it! Whodathunk!?

How did you hookup the clamp meter to the wire? Did you wrap it aroundnone conductor or the entire nm-b jacket?

Also, well pumps have a check valve to prevent water from back flowing back into the well. So unless the plumbing on your well is missing a check valve, theres no way for water to backflow into the well.

 

[American Locomotive]

How did you hookup the clamp meter to the wire? Did you wrap it aroundnone conductor or the entire nm-b jacket?

Also, well pumps have a check valve to prevent water from back flowing back into the well. So unless the plumbing on your well is missing a check valve, theres no way for water to backflow into the well.

Check valves can fail, and the pipe going from the well head to the house can also fail. I've seen a case where the pipe going from the well broke under ground for a couple of days. They finally figured it out and shut the pump off. There was so much water in the ground, that it was actually flowing back in through the rupture, back into the well.