Natural Gas vs Propane Pros & Cons

[FSNut01]

We just built a 30x40 gambrel style barn and the main floor will be heated with a radiant system. We have natural gas in the house but the barn is 200' from the house and the gas service comes in on the far side of the house so it seems impractical to extend the gas from the house to the barn. I contacted our gas supplier and they sent an engineer to survey the site and provide an estimate for installing a separate service to the barn. We received the estimate last Saturday and while it's not unreasonable, there are several more factors driving me to seriously consider using propane instead of natural gas. I'll list the pros and cons I can think of for both but I am looking for input from anyone on anything I may have overlooked.

Natural Gas
Pros
Cheaper fuel
No ugly tanks

Cons
May have to cut my driveway to install line
$787 installation charge
$20-$30 monthly service charge
Trench dug with backhoe and mess in yard
Grumpy customer service reps

Propane
Pros
Free installation
No service charges
Pay only for what's used
No digging to install
Friendly helpful customer service rep

Cons
Ugly tanks
$10/mo rental fee
Higher fuel cost

It seems to me that even at a higher fuel cost it would take me a long time to make up the $787 installation charge using this only for a water heater 6 months out of the year. Does anyone have any idea how much propane I might go through in 6 months in western NY on a 140,000 BTU water heater? I plan on keeping the heat set at 55-60 deg. The propane dealer said the would install 2 100 gal tanks. Their current cost is $2.19/gal.

 

[BillK]

FS,
I don't know about your area, but around here Propane is almost twice the price of natural gas per btu. I am pretty sure there are sites where you can figure the differences if you know the prices in your area.

All I know is that I pay less today to heat my shop with natural gas than we paid for propane at my last shop over ten years ago. Both shops are about the same exact size and insulation etc. If all it will cost you is about $1000 to run the gas, I would certainly do that, you will make up the difference real fast. The convenience factor is sweet too, no having to worry about the tank getting filled, no tank to look at etc etc.

Just my opinion,

 

[Mickey O]

Run your own plastic line under ground from your existing service renting a trenching machine, done.

 

[FSNut01]

Run your own plastic line under ground from your existing service renting a trenching machine, done.

I am under the impression that I would have to go large (1" or more?) to be able to get enough volume and pressure over the 200' between the house and the barn. Is that incorrect? I am also thinking that I would have to tap the existing service at the meter. That's what's impractical, the meter's on the far side of the house. I would have to either go around the house (double the distance) or go through the house (very difficult and possibly not legal). The cost of the materials to DIY would be more than the cost of the new service. I would save the monthly service fee but....

 

[EOC_Jason]

The size of the pipe is determined by the distance and the volume being consumed. 1" does not sound unreasonable, but I'm no expert on that.

A trenching machine is worth its weight in gold. They can do the job very fast. Why would you need a backhoe? Do you have to go *that* deep?

You might be able to go under your driveway with a high-pressure water jet.

Propane is slightly more efficient than natural gas. However propane prices seem to do nothing but go up while natural gas has his rock bottom and will probably sit there for a looong while.

On the flip side, you said you are only planning to use it to heat your floor? To me that doesn't sound super critical, and worst case if you run out of propane it's not a life or death situation. Also if you go NG, you will now have a gas line running a long distance across your property and if you ever do other improvements in the future it could end up being in the way.

 

[Jackfre]

I'd go for the natural, if available. You could run propane for a year or two to get a firm figure on what it is going to consume. Make sure the equipment you are purchasing is convertible.

The thing about lp, is that they will provide the tank, but it will be sized to require multiple fills thru the season. The company doesn't want to much $teel in your yard. You will pay more for those in season fill-ups. If you go lp for the long haul, the best thing is to buy your own tank of sufficient size to carry you through the heating season, or as near as possible. Then you can manage your buys.

When you cost it all out the natural is your best bet. Take the hit and enjoy your new shop.

 

[FSNut01]

Thanks for the feedback. I guess the thing I am most uneasy about is the use of the backhoe and the possibility of having my driveway hacked up.

A trenching machine is worth its weight in gold. They can do the job very fast. Why would you need a backhoe? Do you have to go *that* deep?

You might be able to go under your driveway with a high-pressure water jet.

It wouldn't be me doing this. It would be a contractor hired by the utility co. I suppose I could try to be there to supervise but I know if I am not there and they had any difficulty pushing it under the driveway the are going to break out the saw and dig up the driveway.

There's also a couple of trees they would have to pass between and I am worried about them damaging the roots to the point of harming the trees.

I talked to the engineer that came out to do the site survey and asked him about these things and he referred me to the job site foreman who doesn't get assigned the job until I send in the check for the work. I guess I'll have to send that in and then talk to him and if I don't like the answers at that point I could hopefully cancel the work.

 

[EOC_Jason]

When they come to do the work, best thing to do is get a couple boxes of fresh donuts and an ice-chest full of soft drinks & water. Showing a little courtesy goes a long way...

 

[Falcon67]

NG will pay for the install really quick in savings. If we had NG on this block, I'd uproot trees, dig ditches and saw bricks off the house to get it before I'd set a propane tank. Around here, electric heat is competitive with propane.

 

[FSNut01]

When they come to do the work, best thing to do is get a couple boxes of fresh donuts and an ice-chest full of soft drinks & water. Showing a little courtesy goes a long way..

I always try to do something like that. We bought lunch for the barn crew, always had ice and water available for them and most days I had cold beer for them at the end of their day. They told us how much they appreciated it and their work showed it.

NG will pay for the install really quick in savings. If we had NG on this block, I'd uproot trees, dig ditches and saw bricks off the house to get it before I'd set a propane tank. Around here, electric heat is competitive with propane.

Y'all have me leaning back toward NG.

 

[EOC_Jason]

LPG around here is like ~2.10 a gallon

NG is ~0.57 per 100 Cubic Feet

How those two equate I have no idea.

I just know that filling up one LPG tank for my forklift is about the same as my monthly NG bill at the house (a little over $20)...

EDIT - looks like 1 Gallon of Propane = 35 Cubic Feet... WOWZA! So that's like $6 per 100 cubic feet...

 

[Highbeam]

Using your costs and the fuel cost calculator from

http://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/fuel_cost_comparison_calculator/

A Mbtu of NG costs $7.13
A Mbtu of LP costs $30.39

Your NG costs are extremely low. We used to pay double that for NG per therm (100CF)in the northwest 5 years ago.

 

[FSNut01]

I just found a savings calculator on my utilities website and according to that the payback on the installation charge would be in less than 4 years!!! I think I have reached a decision. NG it is. I'll just have to lay across the driveway when they get near it!

 

[HoosierBuddy]

When faced with the same decision (twice) I have opted to run the line myself.

That being said...I work for the gas company.

It's not rocket science by any means, but if you aren't comfortable doing it...then you'd be better off contracting for it. My LAST choice would be to set another meter. I don't even like paying the first meter charge, much less the second. Call the gas company back and see if they can recommend an installer. One of their contract installers might be able to run a line for you between the outlet side of your existing gas meter and your new garage and then you'd just need a plumber to hook it up for you.

Worth a call to check on.

Phil

p.s. I'd love to live in a world where I could tear up someone's driveway and just tell them "tough luck". In my world...if I break it I just bought it. We bore under them. All of them.

 

[koditten]

The plastic gas pipe is cheap. I believe it is already 1" diameter. I would have no problem running the trencher right thrue my asphalt just to have NG. I think I paid 125 bucks for a 300' roll 3 years ago. The expensive part is the connectors (risers) that you will need one on each end.

I'm glad you are leaning heavily towards NG. It's not that difficult to have done. I did my own trenching and had a plumber do the risers. I couldn't be happier.

KO

 

[Garage Flooring]

Go natural gas. Many of the LP appliances are more expensive, they wear faster and are often more costly to fix. LP is more expensive, more dangerous and not a good choice when other options are available.

 

[Kriilin]

And while they're doing the install, I'd get them to run a hookup for a BBQ! (seriously)! Now there's some man cred!

 

[EOC_Jason]

Or even a whole-house generator...

 

[D.J.]

Well around here the bottom dropped out of the propane market and is now 1.099 per gallon last week. No mention of r value on walls and ceiling number of windows and if their double or tripple pane. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the plastic piping used are both the same composition and I have no dog in this fight but if I'm going to hook up a whole house generator it will be propane and not ng as I live in the Wabash Fault zone and I will want power when the underground piping bursts when the Earthquake come calling. Just my $.02

 

[FSNut01]

One of their contract installers might be able to run a line for you between the outlet side of your existing gas meter and your new garage

It's not practical for me to try to connect at the meter. The meter is on the far side of the house and the line would have to go half way around the house making it an over 300' run. The shortest route would be through the house but it would be near impossible to run a 1" line through the house due to space and logistical issues and even that would be over 225'. My best option for NG is to have the utility install the new service and deal with the baggage it carries. Sounds like it will be the cheapest option in the long run.

And while they're doing the install, I'd get them to run a hookup for a BBQ!

Did that myself 5 years ago and lovin' it!!!

Or even a whole-house generator...

Did that 5 years ago too. The power lines in our area are old and prone to breakages. We seemed to lose power every time the wind blew. After we had the generator installed it was over a year before we needed it. Since then it has been used several times including LAST NIGHT!!!!

 

[HoosierBuddy]

It's not practical for me to try to connect at the meter. The meter is on the far side of the house and the line would have to go half way around the house making it an over 300' run. The shortest route would be through the house but it would be near impossible to run a 1" line through the house due to space and logistical issues and even that would be over 225'. My best option for NG is to have the utility install the new service and deal with the baggage it carries. Sounds like it will be the cheapest option in the long run.
!

With all due respect, 300-feet is just a number. 1" PE gas line with 14 gauge tracer wire costs roughly 25-cents a foot. That's $75 for the pipe. The risers will run about $30 each. You'll need a couple of couplings, no doubt. All in....less than $200 in material.

The cost will be in the ditch...but assuming they can trench it...they'll spend more time getting the trencher to the job and on and off the trailer than they will digging 300-feet of trench 18-inches deep (assuming good ground conditions).

Phil

 

[Fueler]

I'm a propane user only because NG isn't available to me. Go NG.
Propane is too expensive, almost always a minimum fill requirement, no deliveries on weekends in the middle of the snow storm when you run out. stuff like that.

 

[VHF]

What about directional boring? They might be able to run the line with from your meter, around your house, and under your driveway with a minimum of digging. It used to be pretty expensive per foot, but the equipment has become much more readily available at a more resonable cost.

Saw a house where they put in a PV array about 200' from the house and used directional boring to run the line to the house down a hill, under a pond, under the driveway, and came up right at the desired spot by an existing basement window well.

 

[EOC_Jason]

^^^ I never thought about that. It isn't quite as fast as if they used a backhoe or trencher, but it's a lot less intrusive. I've seen smaller ones that are pneumatic and they control the direction by adjusting the pressure. A contractor for the cable company used one when they were running a new main line between the power pole & pedestal a hundred or so feet away. Anywhere they had to make a turn they just dug a small rectangular hole.