Natural Gas Wall Heater

[Jazz]

Thinking of installing this (ProCom Blue Flame Vent-Free Wall Heater — 30,000 BTU Output, 1000 Sq. Ft. Heating Capacity, Model# MD300TBA) in my addition to supplement the heat pump when temps drop below 20 degrees. The bathroom will have in floor heating (Ditra-Heat).

The room is 18x18 or so and has a ceiling fan and there is a return vent for the heat pump in the room as well.

The house is already plumbed for Natural gas at low pressure for the gas range (black iron pipe I ran a few years ago) and I plan to add a leg of copper pipe to the end of that run to this heater.

And downsides I'm missing?

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200395468_200395468

 

[jmarkwolf]

I've had a similar heater (ventless, 30,000btu, natural gas) in my attached 2 1/2 car garage for over 15 years and it works well in Southeast Michigan.

The room is insulated, and has an insulated door.

I keep the heater on the lowest setting, unless I'm working in there, and it keeps the room at about 58 - 60 degF. Get's up to 70degF in minutes when I turn it up.

Some say these heaters generate problem humidity but I've never experienced it, perhaps because it's almost always on low.

 

[Professur]

Not for sale in Calif ... no great surprise there. Not for sale in Canada ... there I'd be wanting to know why not.

 

[Jazz]

If this heater is largely only running in the evening an the heat pump running more during the day maybe humidity won't be an issue. I could probably stand to have a little humidity introduced into the air.

 

[sprntpshr]

Non-vented natural or propane gas fueled appliances are not certified for use in Ontario and unlikely anywhere else in Canada. There are a number of factors.

Firstly.. Very high risk of CO poisoning since the products of combustion is vented into the area where combustion air for the appliance is drawn decreasing total available oxygen. Our housing tends to be sealed up to keep the heat in. Unlike say South Carolina or Georgia.

Some heating equipment I worked on had stickers that stated, " Products of combustion are known or suspected of causing cancer in the state of California" or something to that effect.

 

[jonjon1]

I think there are better options for a bit more money, I am not a fan of vent free, I have installed a few over the years and when I do my co tests, its always there. Most put it in their instructions, not to be installed in a sealed environment.

I would go to your local hvac supply houses and see if anyone has a scratch and dent 90+ furnace, I usd to buy them all the time, I actually have 2 brand new Rheem 45K btu units in their boxes in my shed, they were both opened and then sent back but never installed, I bought them for $375 each...

Even if you can't find a closeout unit, a cheap brand new 90+ is only $500 ish... Then figure $40 of the electric hook up {gas switch, firomatic, some, emt, and boxes}, $20 for a t-stat, $15 in pvc to go out the wall with the vent, and if you want to get fancy, $50 for a "pair of pants" vent for the supply.

You can install them yourself just as easy as any other unit, run your gas line {simple flex will make it easy},pvc the vent to the outside with 2" sched 40 psi, run 120v to the cabinet {they will have 2 wires and a ground like any appliance, clearly marked as "L1, L2, grnd", and run the t-stat r and w to the units TT connection... Done. I can do it in 30 minutes, lol...

Anyway, just something to think about, a tiny 90+ will last for decades and be repairable with easy to find parts. I don't see anythnig wrong with them little heaters, they are cheap, but I just don't like ventless

 

[Jazz]

Remembering also this is a backup heat source and not a primary source. One thing I could consider is to upgrade the smoke detector to a Smoke, C0, C02 detector just to be safe.

The alternative heat source would be an all electric wall mounted "fireplace". I'm guessing that might not be as efficient, I'm not sure. How does that work as an alternative versus the Natural Gas?

Note: I have a wood insert in my fireplace in the main living room for emergencies. Winter power outages in my area are rare. What I am looking for is a way to keep the heating bill from climbing out of control when the temps fall.

 

[sprntpshr]

Remembering also this is a backup heat source and not a primary source. One thing I could consider is to upgrade the smoke detector to a Smoke, C0, C02 detector just to be safe.

Check if the heater is approved for use in enclosed living spaces.

A CO detector is a wise investment not only in the area the appliance is located but in the living space as well.

Geography plays a part, we are getting "Thunder Ice", lightning and thunder while ice pellets are coming down.

 

[jonjon1]

While a co detector is better than no detector, I would have them in there regardless of what way you go. I like to install the co and smokes to interrupt the function of your appliance, its really simple, I use BRK detectors with a brk RM4 relay for the appliance it is installed by. The alarm trips and it stops the unit, you can wire it into the tt low voltage or the high voltage they are well worth the $20 they cost...

You are in VA, you should be getting a coal stove, I run one and love it, you can heat that entire place for $300 a year. I load mine once a week and empty the bin at the same time, they are cheap too...

I was thinking this was a garage, no way would I put that ventless heater in my house!!!

 

[Norcal]

[

Not for sale in Calif ... no great surprise there. Not for sale in Canada ... there I'd be wanting to know why not.

QUOTE=sprntpshr;4756631]Non-vented natural or propane gas fueled appliances are not certified for use in Ontario and unlikely anywhere else in Canada. There are a number of factors.

Firstly.. Very high risk of CO poisoning since the products of combustion is vented into the area where combustion air for the appliance is drawn decreasing total available oxygen. Our housing tends to be sealed up to keep the heat in. Unlike say South Carolina or Georgia.

Some heating equipment I worked on had stickers that stated, " Products of combustion are known or suspected of causing cancer in the state of California" or something to that effect.[/QUOTE]

I would not be comfortable w/ a unvented heater in a living space, but they are illegal here in CA for same reasons they are in Canukistan.

Those warnings on products are the result of Prop 65 being passed, those warnings a a big joke, IMO.

 

[ttpete]

If you're going to hang a heater on the wall, you could install a through-the-wall vented unit without much more trouble.

 

[Professur]

If you're going to hang a heater on the wall, you could install a through-the-wall vented unit without much more trouble.

That presumes it's an outside wall.

 

[G_P]

I lived in a house with a ventless propane wall heater. Never had any issues with C0 (had detectors including one in the same room as the heater) but did have major issues with moisture and humidity. It also sucked down gas like an old carb'd big block powered motorhome going uphill pulling a boat.
Nat gas might put out less moisture than propane though.

 

[ttpete]

That presumes it's an outside wall.

I thought it probably would be seeing that there's a heat pump that has to connect outside.

 

[stingry]

After having a vent-free heater in my garage, there's no way in hell that I would put one inside my house. They produce moisture, stink and eventually will deplete the oxygen in the room unless outside air is vented into the house or room (which kind of defeats the purpose of the heater, doesn't it??)

 

[jonjon1]

After having a vent-free heater in my garage, there's no way in hell that I would put one inside my house. They produce moisture, stink and eventually will deplete the oxygen in the room unless outside air is vented into the house or room (which kind of defeats the purpose of the heater, doesn't it??)

He has obviously been down this road, may be a good idea to learn from his warning...

 

[Jackfre]

Vent free heaters are ok, BUT, they are generally not run properly. By approval and definition vent free heaters are supplemental heaters and are not intended to be run as a sole source of heat. They are cheap and efficient so folks buy them run them all the time, don't take care of them and complain when they don't work well.

Yes, you may have to crack a window, but you provide combustion air for any appliance. Odors come from the pilot assembly or burner not being clean. Anything that is airborne is going to go thru that burner and it will not come out smelling better than it went in. Paint, hair spray, degreaser, whatever will stink to the high heavens. You clean the pilot assembly and burner with compressed air. Put your hand over any combustion vent and as well a being hot it is saturated air. There is about 1 gal of moisture entrained in the flue gases of a gallon of LP, oil or therm of NG. Yes as it cools it may condense. If it does the heater is being run to long or is way oversized.

People like them because they are cheap. It may work ok for you, but then again it may not. In Newport News for under 400 sq ft a 30kbtu unit is pretty large. I recently spoke with a distributor friend of mine in the SE who has had about 30% failure on those Chinese infra-reds.

I have a couple VF heaters in their boxes. We get regular power outages here and this winter I'd take the units out of the box, plug them into the quick connect gas connections and heat the place. They worked beautifully...for temporary heat. Also, mine are Rinnai's and Rinnai stopped importing the infra-reds in '08.

I am not a vent free fan. I use them appropriately. I'm a vented heater guy by training, inclination & experience. Put a direct vent in there and you will be happy with it.

 

[yeldogt]

Years ago these were prevelent as tiny makeup heaters in bathrooms and unvented fire places - expecially in the city. Houses leaked and people had a differnt idea of "warm". They ran for a couple of hours ..max.

Today - people run them in closed room for days. and they are 30k I was looking at a cheap 40g water heater the other day .. 26k BTU. It's like taking the vent off the water heater.

At 30k BTU a BG heater is putting upwards of 7 gallons of water into the air in 24 hours -- the propane ones will leave a film.

 

[Jazz]

Looks like I'm going with an electric "fireplace" for supplemental heat and also the "look" I suppose. My money might be better served getting my 5000 Watt Honda Propane Generator set up and running properly or even converting it to natural gas maybe.

 

[mygarageone]

They sell a hell of a lot of these for a reason , they are approved by most state codes and Dispite the Na Sayers , they are safe and reliable . I used one for yrs in a cabin we sleep in all the time and I said this before , the complaint about non vented combustion by products .
Then don't use your gas range or oven ever again .

 

[Radix2]

Looks like I'm going with an electric "fireplace" for supplemental heat and also the "look" I suppose. My money might be better served getting my 5000 Watt Honda Propane Generator set up and running properly or even converting it to natural gas maybe.

Did you check into the direct vent options ? (are you on an outside wall?) If backup is what you are after, it is much more practical than a generator...

 

[fteufert]

I read plenty of comments about C02 poising and oxygen depletion, but in all honesty all the ones sold in Pennsylvania have Oxygen Depletion Sensors built in.

In all honesty, any furnace can deplete oxygen and fill a house with C02, all it takes is a vent issue.

I have used them in my house for 10+ years with no issues, and my C02 detector has never gone off.

I will be installing one in my garage this year to heat it.

 

[Showkey]

After having a vent-free heater in my garage, there's no way in hell that I would put one inside my house. They produce moisture, stink and eventually will deplete the oxygen in the room unless outside air is vented into the house or room (which kind of defeats the purpose of the heater, doesn't it??)

Thinking of installing this (ProCom Blue Flame Vent-Free Wall Heater — 30,000 BTU Output, 1000 Sq. Ft. Heating Capacity, Model# MD

And downsides I'm missing?

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200395468_200395468

Mine are the Same experiences as stingy.........

The Heater is just OK for a garage..........BUT..........solvent fumes passing through the flame are a whole another problem.

No matter the location.........they all have some bad odors and a lot of moisture. The odor alone is a deal breaker for in home use.

SEARCH and Read a few post in this area you will find many members trying to resolve mold and mildew issues after ventless heaters are used in garages and basements.
Posts can also be found dealing with excessive tool rust in the shop from unvented heaters.

NG or propane ........same issues.

 

[gregtwojeeps]

I had a 10K BTU ventless NG heater in the one car garage I left behind and loved it , nice and cozy. I had a wall mount combo temp/humidity meter on the garage wall opposite the heater. ...

When working in the garage I would roll the heater stat up and could see in just 30 minutes, the humidity level go from 50% to 80% whenever I was using the heater.

 

[Streetbu]

I have one in living room. Been using for about 6 years now. I've had no need native issues with it except they do produce a lot of moisture especially propane, which is what I'm using. I have a CO2 detector within 4 feet of it and it has NEVER gone off. Someone mentioned chemicals or paint across an open flame. That IS a valid point. Ever smelled brake clean that has been thru and engine? NOT good for you, burns your nose, and that doesn't even bring up the possibility of a fire. Personally, I would use one in my garage if I needed to to keep it at a set temp when I'm not out there. But would use a different heat source when I am. JMO