Neat wiring in electrical boxes

[nw2571]

Alright all you pros out there.... For the life of me I can never seem to make my boxes look pretty.

Today I wired up a dual gang box, normal light switch on one side, ceiling fan switch on the other side (3 conductor + ground). By the time I'm done I actually have to redo a couple of wires just to get everything in there in a way to jamb my switches in. So I get things rearranged a little and I still have to push pretty hard just to get everything to fit. Doesn't seem right to me.

So what am I doing wrong?

Give me some tips....

 

[Lindlandco]

I would love to know this myself.

 

[JimDon]

Wire length is probably too long for the size of the box. Keep the leads super short so when you pull a device back out, the leads should stop it shortly after it clears the box. If they are longer than that, it gets very difficult to "fold" the wires up to place device in the box. I work with leads so short that unless you're used to it, it is almost difficult to strip the insulation to get your bare ends. Take apart a box done by a pro and study how he's done it, or have an electrician friend show you how he does it. Pros all have their little tricks and preferred ways to do things. Cheers,
JimDon

 

[Alchymist]

Wire length is probably too long for the size of the box. Keep the leads super short so when you pull a device back out, the leads should stop it shortly after it clears the box. If they are longer than that, it gets very difficult to "fold" the wires up to place device in the box. I work with leads so short that unless you're used to it, it is almost difficult to strip the insulation to get your bare ends. Take apart a box done by a pro and study how he's done it, or have an electrician friend show you how he does it. Pros all have their little tricks and preferred ways to do things. Cheers,
JimDon

Code calls for 6" exposed wire length.

One reason I usually use the "deep" boxes, and "Z" fold the wires. Like this: (excuse the crappy picture).

 

[Apdl]

Just did 6 outlets in my garage last night and "Z" method while counter intuitive works really well

 

[MrMark]

You should start with at least 8 inches of wire past the box. There is not much worse in electrical than working with short wires. Use the correct size box and fold the wires neatly. You likely have a too small box.

 

[vhol5]

You should start with at least 8 inches of wire past the box. There is not much worse in electrical than working with short wires. Use the correct size box and fold the wires neatly. You likely have a too small box.

I like to give the device a 180 degree turn as I'm carefully FOLDING the wires into the box. Never try to just push the wires in. Almost form an accordion shape as you push them in.

 

[MrMark]

I typically will use 4S deep metal boxes with a 3/4 mud ring for 5/8 sheetrock. The box provides plenty of room for up to two devices, and offers the flexibility of using MC cable or flex in addition to romex. It is stable in mounting to the stud and can be retapped to a larger size if the screws strip out, which is something I've run into a few times with plastic boxes. Grounding the box is not a big deal. They can be rotozipped around for an accurate cutout of the drywall. The plastic box cannot take the rotozip. This, alone is reason enough to use the metal box for me if doing drywall work I care about. The rotozip is just a tremendous time saver and provides unmatched accuracy rather than butcher work that you almost always see with the drywall guys.

The downside is the setup I described costs 4 or 5 dollars compared to 40 cents for a plastic box. Now you know why plastic is king.

 

[Greatbear]

The trick is to manipulate the wires as little as possible. Assuming you've pulled wiring into a box, let it hang out as straight as possible, if you have to fold the wiring into the box to finish a wall prior to device installation, make the biggest diameter loops you can and press them into the box. Copper work hardens very easily. Take a straight piece of solid copper wire and bend it at a 90 degree angle. Now try to straighten it back out. It will try to bend in the straight areas instead of where the bend actually is. If you have to pull a device for rework, try not to straighten the wires out if they were neatly packed in before. Loop the wires in big arcs behind the device and push it into the box.

I prefer to use the deepest or widest box I can. For single devices I use a mud ring on a 4" box. For tough areas with limited room I will use a winged box for a bit more room.

 

[mtne]

Wow, amazing variety of opinion here. I hate nothing more than when someone leaves less than 6" from the face of the box. I've berated seasoned JW's for that..............

My personal technique. Applies to 2 sets of wires coming into a box or 10............ tho once you have more than your wirenut will allow you have to modify a bit.

Take all the grounds that need to go together and bring them neatly to the ground pigtail. Bend them at a 90 with the pigtail straight out of the back of the box. At that point I usually give 6"-8" which when separated from the group will definitely have more length than needed by code. Twist them together and put a wirenut on them. For the n00bs just a note that the wire nut is not for twisting the wires together......

Next I take the neutrals which most of the time nowadays is just and in, out, and maybe a pigtail. Pick a point in the box and bring them together in one spot and bend them at a 90 and leave the appropriate length, twist and nut.

Then do the same with the hots.

If you've been left short, let those wires be as long at they can and bring the others to it. The key is grouping everything that goes together at the base so that it can fold up nicely.

I tend to divide a basic box in thirds either horizontally or vertically to match the device. If it's just a splice box take your pick.

Once you have several long capped groups of wire that need to be closed into the box, just do a clean fold of the wires. With practice the length and arrangement of the groups can leave you with plenty of room to fold everything neatly away and allow for any devices. For outside and wet locations I try and end up with the wirenuts pointed up as to not catch the eventual water that might get in. This also allows the next person in the box to unfold everything and see what is what if need be. Nothing worse that being hung up in a grid ceiling trying to undo some curlyQ rats nest of 277v, where the wires are "twisted" with the nut and separate as soon as you touch the nut.........

I'll go see about opening a box tomorrow to show an example. Or maybe take some scrap romex and fill a box and take pictures.

 

[nw2571]

Thanks all for the replies. Would love to see some pictures!

 

[ddawg16]

Wow, amazing variety of opinion here. I hate nothing more than when someone leaves less than 6" from the face of the box. I've berated seasoned JW's for that..............

My personal technique. Applies to 2 sets of wires coming into a box or 10............ tho once you have more than your wirenut will allow you have to modify a bit.

Take all the grounds that need to go together and bring them neatly to the ground pigtail. Bend them at a 90 with the pigtail straight out of the back of the box. At that point I usually give 6"-8" which when separated from the group will definitely have more length than needed by code. Twist them together and put a wirenut on them. For the n00bs just a note that the wire nut is not for twisting the wires together......

Next I take the neutrals which most of the time nowadays is just and in, out, and maybe a pigtail. Pick a point in the box and bring them together in one spot and bend them at a 90 and leave the appropriate length, twist and nut.

Then do the same with the hots.

If you've been left short, let those wires be as long at they can and bring the others to it. The key is grouping everything that goes together at the base so that it can fold up nicely.

I tend to divide a basic box in thirds either horizontally or vertically to match the device. If it's just a splice box take your pick.

Once you have several long capped groups of wire that need to be closed into the box, just do a clean fold of the wires. With practice the length and arrangement of the groups can leave you with plenty of room to fold everything neatly away and allow for any devices. For outside and wet locations I try and end up with the wirenuts pointed up as to not catch the eventual water that might get in. This also allows the next person in the box to unfold everything and see what is what if need be. Nothing worse that being hung up in a grid ceiling trying to undo some curlyQ rats nest of 277v, where the wires are "twisted" with the nut and separate as soon as you touch the nut.........

I'll go see about opening a box tomorrow to show an example. Or maybe take some scrap romex and fill a box and take pictures.

Key word "Pigtail".....

That is how I do all my boxes....that is, when the ckt is going to another box. The pigtail lets you stuff the wire nuts and wire in the back....then if you have to work on the socket...your just pulling out the pigtail and not the rest of the bundle....much easier....and your not constantly bending the other wires....less chance of one breaking.

 

[Falcon67]

Not a expert by any stretch, but over time I got to doing it like mtne said. I use the deepest box I can use for that situation. For tying in runs in the attic, I like deep 4" boxes. Tie all the bare copper, twist it up good with lineman's pliers and stuff it in the back. I'll usually cap that just just to keep from getting stuck. Then the neutrals that get ganged are nutted and pushed back. I can then hook up the fixture/whatever and Z fold the wires back in. The technique "usually" works LOL. That's new work. Old work in this house is a **** shoot because every box is filled with wall board spatter and all the wires are caked.

 

[mtne]

Okay, I'll give this a shot......... a tutorial of sorts I guess.

Use your hand to measure, for most men 6" is about the width of the hand plus the thumb.

When stripping wire to make up a box I give myself 8"-10". Really for the PITA of short wire it's just not worth being stingy.

Here's the demo board I made for this. Rather than ruin a four square deep box I used an extension ring I had laying around.

Since most people at home will be using romex I've added two pictures, not sure if it will show. Using the cutting surface of strippers, linesmen or the like just barely put enough pressure to make a crease.

And pull.....

There should be no creasing of the wires underneath. Often it seems problems arise from using too much pressure in the stripping process. I'll add I've never used romex strippers and don't know if they are useful or not.

For romex there should be a minimum of 1/4" of insulation inside the box.

Mess o' wire in a box.

Wires now grouped and bent at a 90 coming out of the box. Note, in this example I didn't use any white wire as a non-neutral. If your using a white wire for anything that's not a neutral take a sharpie and color it.

I find it helps when twisting wires with pigtails to bend the last inch or so at a 90, and hold the pigtailed wire at a 90 as well with the other leg of the 90 held in your hand.

Additionally you should only strip5/8"+- or so when twisting 5 or less wires. The will assure that no bare conductors have the opportunity to find ground.

This cut in box is now ready for a device.

A good tight twist. Note the twist should stop just past the bare wire, and the length of the bare wire is covered by the wirenut.

All the boxes pigtailed and ready to fold and device.

Wires neatly tucked away. There is no rule as to which way to fold. I generally Z but sometime like with the black wires I'll make an L that lays nicely to the back of the box. I don't like twists or curls as I find the wires start to fight each other with tension as you try and make them flatter to the back of the box.

Devices added. When laying out the wires coming out for a device you can plan ahead and know that the ground and neutral will always be on the same side and or end area of the device with the hot opposite.

Whenever I'm devicing in metal boxes I usually courtesy tape the exposed terminals. You never know when a screwdriver will slip and could short things out.

Part way through the Z fold of the devices.

And devices landed. Not that even the GFCI in the cut in box with 8" of wire had plenty of room as to not have to push hard to get it in.

And it can all be easier and quite neat when it's just a J box and with no devices.

This technique is just a general ideal and can be tailored to work well with, or help, making up any box.

 

[porcupine73]

Wow,

!!!

Nice pics. I like how you labeled each Romex outside of the box.

I like big boxes, it just seems to make it so much easier to fit everything you want in there. If I have the space I usually use those metal 4-11/16" boxes for my exposed stuff in the garages and outbuildings.

 

[Falcon67]

>Nice pics. I like how you labeled each Romex outside of the box.
A good trick is to not only Sharpie on the wire close to the box, but also write the circuit or breaker number on the boxes. I always mark the romex with "pwr", "lite", "sw" to know which is which. When you need to re-open a box, you know which breaker SHOULD BE the one controlling that circuit. AWLAYS test first.

(stripped wall - consulted my power layout doc - killed noted breaker - snipped off outlet - POW - wife scream - oops)

 

[MrMark]

very nice. I like to strip around 1 inch and twist and then trim to 1/2 or so. This way I cut off the damage done by the lineman pliers when twisting. I like how you did this and also would appreciate the labeling, not necessary for very experienced masters, but nice to have to nonetheless.

After all your work on this, you should get a mod to make this into a sticky/tutorial of some kind.

 

[Bob275]

Nice right up. The only problem I see is your drywall screws are right through your wiring. That may cause a fire











For those of you who may not get....
(That was a joke)

 

[porcupine73]

>A good trick is to not only Sharpie on the wire close to the box, but also write the circuit or breaker number on the boxes.
Good idea. One of my goals was always to make labels for all my outlets saying like 'fed from UP-3 Ckt 17' etc...but alas it never happened.

When I go into a box, if it is reasonable, I will short the hot to the neutral and ground before proceeding. If it's really dead, nothing will happen. If not, that should give pretty good evidence that it is live! I did have once where it was still live and tripped the breaker. Of course this is not a good idea on systems that have a high amount of short circuit current available because it could initiate an arc flash.

 

[porcupine73]

Nice right up. The only problem I see is your drywall screws are right through your wiring. That may cause a fire

Hm well it does meet the requirement to secure the wire within 12" of the box.....but might cause other problems. But since its a plastic box maybe it will be in a bedroom so the arc fault will catch it.

 

[nw2571]

This technique is just a general ideal and can be tailored to work well with, or help, making up any box.

Great write-up! This will definitely be referenced the next time I'm wiring something.

I've always been taught to wrap the wire end of the nut in tape. Is this necessary?

 

[mtne]

Great write-up! This will definitely be referenced the next time I'm wiring something.

I've always been taught to wrap the wire end of the nut in tape. Is this necessary?

Thanks!

And no, if you're stripping the correct amount of insulation off and getting an even and effective twist then no bare copper should be accessible once the wirenut is on.

 

[mtne]

Nice right up. The only problem I see is your drywall screws are right through your wiring. That may cause a fire











For those of you who may not get....
(That was a joke)

Actually those screws are poweder coated to have a special non-conductive gell surface allowing for penetration and self sealing of NM and NM-B cables for support in hard to get to places.........

 

[rodm1]

Grate read!

 

[65cayne]

...When I go into a box, if it is reasonable, I will short the hot to the neutral and ground before proceeding. If it's really dead, nothing will happen. If not, that should give pretty good evidence that it is live! I did have once where it was still live and tripped the breaker. Of course this is not a good idea EVER.

I fixed that for you.

Why not use a wiggy or volt meter?

 

[MrMack]

Romax strippers are good and worth the price just because of the time savedby using them!

 

[porcupine73]

I fixed that for you.

Why not use a wiggy or volt meter?

True, probably should check for dead first. I've seen in some switchgear installations they include a 'grounding dummy', so if working on the equipment, after checking for dead, you can install the grounding dummy to be protected I guess from stray voltage or it somehow getting energized during the work. I saw one where they forgot to remove the grounding dummy and re-energized. That cubicle looked like a fork lift ran into it. It bent the bus bars and wrinkled up the doors and stuff.

 

[mtne]

Wow, four years later and I gather this thread gets found a lot with searches.....

I was just checking my smugmug photo hosting referal stats and see that this thread referred 3867 times last month

 

[teamextreme]

I've always been taught to wrap the wire end of the nut in tape. Is this necessary?

The only function this serves is to identify work done by a DIY'er. No electrician does this.

Nice write up and nice work mtne. That's the way to do it correctly.

As far as the advice to use shorter wire, NO, NO, NO!!! That's another sure fire sign that work was done by a DIY'er. Nothing worse than opening up a box and barely being able to get the recep or switch past the box to work on it.

 

[sberry]

I fold all the wires in the box before I wire the device on even when using pigtails, lay them up in position, tug them back out of the box and hook the device on and push back in.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Wow, four years later and I gather this thread gets found a lot with searches.....

I was just checking my smugmug photo hosting referal stats and see that this thread referred 3867 times last month

Probably Google Images causing the pics to be found and looked at. I seriously doubt the thread itself is being looked at much.

Charles

 

[mikeburris]

The only function this serves is to identify work done by a DIY'er. No electrician does this.

Nice write up and nice work mtne. That's the way to do it correctly.

As far as the advice to use shorter wire, NO, NO, NO!!! That's another sure fire sign that work was done by a DIY'er. Nothing worse than opening up a box and barely being able to get the recep or switch past the box to work on it.

Kind of a broad statement "The only function this serves is to identify work done by a DIY'er. No electrician does this." since I have seen a journeyman electrician tape them. But then if he does some side work I guess he is a Diy'er

 

[Mustang51js]

The only function this serves is to identify work done by a DIY'er. No electrician does this.

Nice write up and nice work mtne. That's the way to do it correctly.

As far as the advice to use shorter wire, NO, NO, NO!!! That's another sure fire sign that work was done by a DIY'er. Nothing worse than opening up a box and barely being able to get the recep or switch past the box to work on it.

I agree, I've had outlets that I have no idea how they tightened the screw,outlet came out about 1/4 inch. I think they wire outlet then pulled wires back before they sheetrocked

 

[mobiledynamics]

MTNE...google is powerful

I've posted thread responses, pics, etc ....and sometimes if I happen to be searching-googling within a similar topic I posted in a forum, it will show up in google search.

I have also noticed pics I posted in forums if I do a google image search...

 

[the gypsy]

The only function this serves is to identify work done by a DIY'er. No electrician does this.

Nice write up and nice work mtne. That's the way to do it correctly.

As far as the advice to use shorter wire, NO, NO, NO!!! That's another sure fire sign that work was done by a DIY'er. Nothing worse than opening up a box and barely being able to get the recep or switch past the box to work on it.

I don't agree with you. The pro will cut corners to get more work done. Some DIY'ers will take their time and do it correctly IMHO. An old time electrician did this at my house until he got real busy, go figure. I actually asked him about the tape and he told me it was safer.

 

[plow]

I smell sticky.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Wire length is probably too long for the size of the box. Keep the leads super short so when you pull a device back out, the leads should stop it shortly after it clears the box. If they are longer than that, it gets very difficult to "fold" the wires up to place device in the box. I work with leads so short that unless you're used to it, it is almost difficult to strip the insulation to get your bare ends. Take apart a box done by a pro and study how he's done it, or have an electrician friend show you how he does it. Pros all have their little tricks and preferred ways to do things. Cheers,
JimDon

6" of free wire past the box is the norm for any device or splice .

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Wow, amazing variety of opinion here. I hate nothing more than when someone leaves less than 6" from the face of the box. I've berated seasoned JW's for that..............

My personal technique. Applies to 2 sets of wires coming into a box or 10............ tho once you have more than your wirenut will allow you have to modify a bit.

Take all the grounds that need to go together and bring them neatly to the ground pigtail. Bend them at a 90 with the pigtail straight out of the back of the box. At that point I usually give 6"-8" which when separated from the group will definitely have more length than needed by code. Twist them together and put a wirenut on them. For the n00bs just a note that the wire nut is not for twisting the wires together......

Next I take the neutrals which most of the time nowadays is just and in, out, and maybe a pigtail. Pick a point in the box and bring them together in one spot and bend them at a 90 and leave the appropriate length, twist and nut.

Then do the same with the hots.

If you've been left short, let those wires be as long at they can and bring the others to it. The key is grouping everything that goes together at the base so that it can fold up nicely.

I tend to divide a basic box in thirds either horizontally or vertically to match the device. If it's just a splice box take your pick.

Once you have several long capped groups of wire that need to be closed into the box, just do a clean fold of the wires. With practice the length and arrangement of the groups can leave you with plenty of room to fold everything neatly away and allow for any devices. For outside and wet locations I try and end up with the wirenuts pointed up as to not catch the eventual water that might get in. This also allows the next person in the box to unfold everything and see what is what if need be. Nothing worse that being hung up in a grid ceiling trying to undo some curlyQ rats nest of 277v, where the wires are "twisted" with the nut and separate as soon as you touch the nut.........

I'll go see about opening a box tomorrow to show an example. Or maybe take some scrap romex and fill a box and take pictures.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Romax strippers are good and worth the price just because of the time savedby using them!

You can do the same thing with plain old strippers,just takes a little practice is all.

 

[Zeke]

I think it's a good idea on any outside box to point the wire nuts up. One, those boxes seem to attract dirt and two, sometimes water wicks in no matter how hard you try to gasket the fixture. No need for little mini wire spas.