Need a new household A/C unit

[tstaude]

My a/c started frosting up so I cleaned and inspected every thing I could and had the HVAC guy come check it out. It was low and he brazed a couple small leaks. Bottom line is that I will need a new unit soon.

He gave me a budgetary number of $2500-3500 for a 2.5 ton, installed ready to rock. He initially said $3k, with the caveat that prices are fluctuating often.

Seems reasonable to me, what says the brain trust here?

Might I add that the current unit is from 1987.

 

[PugetDude]

$7k for a 2.5 ton Trane 16,SEER heat pump, air handler, new electrics, T-stat. Complete new unit to replace a 2004 R-12 unit that is limping along and likely won’t make it through another Phoenix summer.

Installer had one in inventory; no idea on availability or price if we wait.

 

[metlmunchr]

1987 unit is running R22. The replacement unit would be R410A. The indoor unit, or coil, depending on the type of system, would have to be replaced as well due to the much higher operating pressures of 410A. Refrigerant lines have to be flushed to remove any residual oil from the old system.

Assuming a gas or oil furnace, and replacing only the coil rather than complete indoor unit, I'd figure about $2000 in equipment and materials at my cost as a licensed HVAC contractor. I'd also figure a full day of labor for 2 men to do a proper job assuming the installation bis relatively simple.

By the time you add markup on the equipment and a few other miscellaneous expenses, I'd say the price is borderline on too cheap even at the upper end of his price range. Just make sure you have a written quote outlining exactly what equipment will be furnished. Also, my estimate would be based on a 13 seer unit which is the lowest efficiency.

FWIW, straight replacement of a 2.5 ton condensing unit that was already running on 410A was running in the $2800 to $3000 range locally prior to recent equipment price increases.

 

[yeldogt]

My a/c started frosting up so I cleaned and inspected every thing I could and had the HVAC guy come check it out. It was low and he brazed a couple small leaks. Bottom line is that I will need a new unit soon.

He gave me a budgetary number of $2500-3500 for a 2.5 ton, installed ready to rock. He initially said $3k, with the caveat that prices are fluctuating often.

Seems reasonable to me, what says the brain trust here?

Might I add that the current unit is from 1987.

That's a good price ...... I assume for the coil and matching condenser.

Before replacing one should always evaluate how the current unit is working -- I assume it's matched to some type of furnace?

State and utility rebates can often make the better equipment -- higher seer -- the way to go.

With AC -- they key is to remove humidity .... if the old system has to be set lower to do this ... a rethink of the current should be looked into

 

[Showkey]

What is the type, age, condition and efficiency of the furnace ?

Complete 90% plus NG furnace and AC for $7000-$9000 can be found with a 10 year P/L warranty.
Which is pretty close to the $3500 number in the ball park estimate.

Especially if the furnace is ‘87 80% with NG spiking for the foreseeable future.

Wisconsin……90* humid in early May brings out the best/worst in older equipment. 10 days back we had the heat on

 

[mike93lx]

What is the type, age, condition and efficiency of the furnace ?

Complete 90% plus NG furnace and AC for $7000-$9000 can be found with a 10 year P/L warranty.

Especially if the furnace is ‘87 80% with NG spiking for the foreseeable future.

This is what I have been quoted as well. I have three r22 systems with 80% NG furnaces that are working fine but are 20 years old. When the need arises, they will get 90%+ NG heat pumps

 

[tstaude]

1987 unit is running R22. The replacement unit would be R410A. The indoor unit, or coil, depending on the type of system, would have to be replaced as well due to the much higher operating pressures of 410A. Refrigerant lines have to be flushed to remove any residual oil from the old system.

Assuming a gas or oil furnace, and replacing only the coil rather than complete indoor unit, I'd figure about $2000 in equipment and materials at my cost as a licensed HVAC contractor. I'd also figure a full day of labor for 2 men to do a proper job assuming the installation bis relatively simple.

By the time you add markup on the equipment and a few other miscellaneous expenses, I'd say the price is borderline on too cheap even at the upper end of his price range. Just make sure you have a written quote outlining exactly what equipment will be furnished. Also, my estimate would be based on a 13 seer unit which is the lowest efficiency.

FWIW, straight replacement of a 2.5 ton condensing unit that was already running on 410A was running in the $2800 to $3000 range locally prior to recent equipment price increases.

That's what I thought.

The install on this unit is stupid easy, I could properly remove everything (assuming discharged) in less than one hour.
Everything is pretty easy to access.

I'll find out what unit that he is thinking.
It's a local guy I have used in the past for some commercial work when we owned a preschool.

 

[tstaude]

What is the type, age, condition and efficiency of the furnace ?

Complete 90% plus NG furnace and AC for $7000-$9000 can be found with a 10 year P/L warranty.
Which is pretty close to the $3500 number in the ball park estimate.

Especially if the furnace is ‘87 80% with NG spiking for the foreseeable future.

Wisconsin……90* humid in early May brings out the best/worst in older equipment. 10 days back we had the heat on

Currently have an oil furnace, no natural gas nearby.
The propane for my stove and water heater is up considerably.....

 

[tstaude]

1987 unit is running R22. The replacement unit would be R410A. The indoor unit, or coil, depending on the type of system, would have to be replaced as well due to the much higher operating pressures of 410A. Refrigerant lines have to be flushed to remove any residual oil from the old system.

Assuming a gas or oil furnace, and replacing only the coil rather than complete indoor unit, I'd figure about $2000 in equipment and materials at my cost as a licensed HVAC contractor. I'd also figure a full day of labor for 2 men to do a proper job assuming the installation bis relatively simple.

By the time you add markup on the equipment and a few other miscellaneous expenses, I'd say the price is borderline on too cheap even at the upper end of his price range. Just make sure you have a written quote outlining exactly what equipment will be furnished. Also, my estimate would be based on a 13 seer unit which is the lowest efficiency.

FWIW, straight replacement of a 2.5 ton condensing unit that was already running on 410A was running in the $2800 to $3000 range locally prior to recent equipment price increases.

Can you give me a short and sweet explanation on what SEER would be the best?
There's gotta be a break even point for each level up, unfamiliar territory for me.

 

[yeldogt]

Typically with an older oil furnace you don't have a lot of options. They don't have the modulation like a gas unit and no VS blowers. Just fixed speed.

You should be looking at a HP with oil as fuel.

With a single speed blower you have fewer choices the high SEER equipment needs matching air handler or furnace. -- SEER with single speed is just about math. The cheapest units in any manufacturers line are going to make more noise -- they publish the levels

Have you ever thought of switching the heater to propane ? Both oil and propane are more expensive .... oil requires more service

 

[Showkey]

Plus propane ……

smells better
90% plus efficiency
Can be multi stage ( variable)
no oil tank
future resale

SEER is an efficiency rating …….Google it hours of reading
Wisconsin 14-16 seer is a trade off for unit cost vs operation cost. As Wisconsin days used of AC might 15 to 60 days. Where Texas might have 250-320 days of AC use.

Your use of the AC in Wisconsin might completely different. The more it’s used the the SEER rating as more value.

AC SEER ……Think of it like that 90%plus heating furnace pays off big in the Wisconsin heating season thats 7-8 months long. 90% plus furnace in Texas does not save much.

 

[tstaude]

Plus propane ……

smells better
90% plus efficiency
Can be multi stage ( variable)
no oil tank
future resale

SEER is an efficiency rating …….Google it hours of reading
Wisconsin 14-16 seer is a trade off for unit cost vs operation cost. As Wisconsin days used of AC might 15 to 60 days. Where Texas might have 250-320 days of AC use.

Your use of the AC in Wisconsin might completely different. The more it’s used the the SEER rating as more value.

AC SEER ……Think of it like that 90%plus heating furnace pays off big in the Wisconsin heating season thats 7-8 months long. 90% plus furnace in Texas does not save much.

yep already googled the sh!t out of the topic, seems like a 14 should be fine. Likely diminishing returns after that

 

[mike93lx]

yep already googled the sh!t out of the topic, seems like a 14 should be fine. Likely diminishing returns after that

Somewhere around 14-15 seemed to be a sweet spot, but that's the minimum allowable anyway,AFAIK. Going much past that won't get you much if your whole system isn't designed around it. The most efficient a/c in the world won't save you money if the duct work and house is a leaky mess

 

[Showkey]

yep already googled the sh!t out of the topic, seems like a 14 should be fine. Likely diminishing returns after that

Some of the utilities give a rebate at seer 16 …….so it becomes a free up grade, plus an additional discount.
WPS was 16 and above for my install.

 

[fitter30]

Contractors in saint louis area are not fixing r22 unit. Refrigerant 22 wholesale 1200 -1500 a drum. Builder grade equipment gas furnace 3 ton $9k.

 

[yeldogt]

yep already googled the sh!t out of the topic, seems like a 14 should be fine. Likely diminishing returns after that

The choice may come down to any electric utility rebate. There are 16 SEER single stage units ... they key with you is the HP.

With your climate the thing to look at is the COP of the heat pump .... With oil furnace -- you want a heat pump. Typically the higher SEER/ COP units have a larger all AL Coil w/ demand defrost. There will be many times where the HP can heat the house for less than oil.

Example: Carrier makes an oddball infinity 5 stage HP model that works well in the mid-atlantic --- it's a 3T unit in a 4T case. Bigger coil. It has a different heating curve that better matches the needs in the mid-atlantic. I have used a couple now ...

 

[tstaude]

OK guys- in true GJ spirit- this can't be that difficult for me to do.

The guy charged my old system and brazed two small leaks yesterday- $633 later
Seems like a fine price, was not expecting R410 to cost $300, service was $192 for 1.5 hours plus other misc. So not terrible but holy **** why am I not in HVAC?
It's running for now but I have the cash aside for a new unit.

Anyway I got to thinking about buying a Goodman unit that comes pre charged and installing it.
I have soldered hundreds of copper pipe fittings, brazed a few.
My dad is industrial maintenance, so no issues hooking up electrical.

What says the brain trust?

 

[theoldwizard1]

Interesting side note. Propane makes an excellent "working fluid" for refrigeration systems except that it is flammable.

 

[yeldogt]

OK guys- in true GJ spirit- this can't be that difficult for me to do.

The guy charged my old system and brazed two small leaks yesterday- $633 later
Seems like a fine price, was not expecting R410 to cost $300, service was $192 for 1.5 hours plus other misc. So not terrible but holy **** why am I not in HVAC?
It's running for now but I have the cash aside for a new unit.

Anyway I got to thinking about buying a Goodman unit that comes pre charged and installing it.
I have soldered hundreds of copper pipe fittings, brazed a few.
My dad is industrial maintenance, so no issues hooking up electrical.

What says the brain trust?

Where were the leaks --- he may have fixed it for a while.

 

[tstaude]

The choice may come down to any electric utility rebate. There are 16 SEER single stage units ... they key with you is the HP.

With your climate the thing to look at is the COP of the heat pump .... With oil furnace -- you want a heat pump. Typically the higher SEER/ COP units have a larger all AL Coil w/ demand defrost. There will be many times where the HP can heat the house for less than oil.

Example: Carrier makes an oddball infinity 5 stage HP model that works well in the mid-atlantic --- it's a 3T unit in a 4T case. Bigger coil. It has a different heating curve that better matches the needs in the mid-atlantic. I have used a couple now ...

Interesting, I had not looked into a heat pump but now you have my interest.
I know in my area a lot of times a heat pump is only efficient down to a certain temp.

 

[tstaude]

Where were the leaks --- he may have fixed it for a while.

one on the line outside and one on the A coil..... time will tell

 

[mike93lx]

OK guys- in true GJ spirit- this can't be that difficult for me to do.

The guy charged my old system and brazed two small leaks yesterday- $633 later
Seems like a fine price, was not expecting R410 to cost $300, service was $192 for 1.5 hours plus other misc. So not terrible but holy **** why am I not in HVAC?
It's running for now but I have the cash aside for a new unit.

Anyway I got to thinking about buying a Goodman unit that comes pre charged and installing it.
I have soldered hundreds of copper pipe fittings, brazed a few.
My dad is industrial maintenance, so no issues hooking up electrical.

What says the brain trust?

Everything looks easy until you realize that it was easy because he spent many years doing it to look that easy.

That said, send it

 

[yeldogt]

one on the line outside and one on the A coil..... time will tell

I'm not an expert on leaks ... but, if one of the install copper joints failed or he fixed an odd copper factory joint -- it may be fixed for a while. If he said it looks like a pin hole and there are going to be more -- that's something else.

 

[yeldogt]

Interesting, I had not looked into a heat pump but now you have my interest.
I know in my area a lot of times a heat pump is only efficient down to a certain temp.

Modern heat pumps have no trouble working down at very low temps. Not like the units of even 10 years ago -- many of them started to fall off in the 30's. These work way down ... mine gives full output down to 2 degrees.

Now ------ what you start getting into is the sizing. If you are buying a straight AC -- you size based on the cooling load. What happens when you now want a heap pump ? In some areas with 4 seasons where one has full summer and winter the sizes may come close. In many areas of the country when talking heat .. the heat load is higher. You don't want to toss in a single stage HP based on heating as it will be oversized for cooling. This is where the variable speed fans and multi speed compressors come in .... they, can adjust that load. Most only come in full ton sizing.

Not knowing the heat load on the house I can't tell you at what outside temp 30k BTU will fall behind heating the house -- you can figure that out.

You can go online and get an oil to electric energy comparison calculator. Put in the cost of the oil per gallon and the efficiency (use 85%) vs the cost of KW electric. It will give you the figure ... then you take the COP and divide the electric. The electric is for resistance heat -- HP is much more efficient. So .21 KW at COP of 3 is .07KW

 

[tstaude]

Everything looks easy until you realize that it was easy because he spent many years doing it to look that easy.

That said, send it

I know what you mean, and I am not understating the years of experience or anything like that, not saying it looks easy either. I have a high level of appreciation for the trades.

I personally have a hard time resisting a new skill/learning opportunity.
Like before last month I had never even done spark plugs on a hemi, but I dug right in an did a cam and lifters on a customer car.

 

[fitter30]

Refrigerant 410 cost not marked up $500 a 25lb drum tripled in price pre pandemic. To repair a leak. Find it, property reclaim any refrigerant, solder the leaks ( $3.80 a stick 15%) ,pressure test, pull a vacuum and recharged. In the saint louis area a lot of contractors won't repair a 22 unit just give u a price that will knock your socks off.

 

[PugetDude]

Bit the bullet; my new 2.5 ton Trane Heat Pump is being installed on Tuesday. $7K total w/ tax and installation.
Figured the short-term supply issues aren't going to get any better here in PHX this summer.
Don't want to wait until it craps out when it's 119 here this summer. This was the only unit original to the house; the other 3 were replaced in 2018.

 

[ybnormal]

depending on your age an how much longer you plan to spend in the house and how your property is laid out, you may want to look at geothermal. yes, it's more expensive initially but the bills are usually nice and even

 

[mike93lx]

Bit the bullet; my new 2.5 ton Trane Heat Pump is being installed on Tuesday. $7K total w/ tax and installation.
Figured the short-term supply issues aren't going to get any better here in PHX this summer.
Don't want to wait until it craps out when it's 119 here this summer. This was the only unit original to the house; the other 3 were replaced in 2018.

Curious, do you need additional heat besides the HP?

 

[PugetDude]

Curious, do you need additional heat besides the HP?

Not in Phoenix. Rarely gets below freezing in the winter.

 

[ybnormal]

Not in Phoenix. Rarely gets below freezing in the winter.

New Years Eve, 2014. was that the last time?

 

[u3b3rg33k]

OK guys- in true GJ spirit- this can't be that difficult for me to do.

The guy charged my old system and brazed two small leaks yesterday- $633 later
Seems like a fine price, was not expecting R410 to cost $300, service was $192 for 1.5 hours plus other misc. So not terrible but holy **** why am I not in HVAC?
It's running for now but I have the cash aside for a new unit.

Anyway I got to thinking about buying a Goodman unit that comes pre charged and installing it.
I have soldered hundreds of copper pipe fittings, brazed a few.
My dad is industrial maintenance, so no issues hooking up electrical.

What says the brain trust?

I don't see you saying anything about a vacuum pump or nitrogen purge for your brazing. those are important.

Modern heat pumps have no trouble working down at very low temps. Not like the units of even 10 years ago -- many of them started to fall off in the 30's. These work way down ... mine gives full output down to 2 degrees.

Now ------ what you start getting into is the sizing. If you are buying a straight AC -- you size based on the cooling load. What happens when you now want a heap pump ? In some areas with 4 seasons where one has full summer and winter the sizes may come close. In many areas of the country when talking heat .. the heat load is higher. You don't want to toss in a single stage HP based on heating as it will be oversized for cooling. This is where the variable speed fans and multi speed compressors come in .... they, can adjust that load. Most only come in full ton sizing.

Not knowing the heat load on the house I can't tell you at what outside temp 30k BTU will fall behind heating the house -- you can figure that out.

You can go online and get an oil to electric energy comparison calculator. Put in the cost of the oil per gallon and the efficiency (use 85%) vs the cost of KW electric. It will give you the figure ... then you take the COP and divide the electric. The electric is for resistance heat -- HP is much more efficient. So .21 KW at COP of 3 is .07KW

we just installed one of these at work, along with an economizer:

Heat Pumps

A Concord heat pump is a smart investment every day of the year. Single-stage and two-stage operation heat pumps available.

www.concord-air.com

it installs like a 2 stage unit, but the condenser is a 5 ton inverter unit with LG on the circuit board. it adjusts itself to the load, informed by the Y1/Y2 call.

 

[Showkey]

OP is in Wisconsin …..even South eastern Wisconsin , he is going to need a heat system to actual -25* F outside temperatures.

 

[PugetDude]

New Years Eve, 2014. was that the last time?

Not sure- we lived in PHX 2001-2011 then moved to the Olympic Peninsula. Back here full time since 2019.

 

[yeldogt]

I don't see you saying anything about a vacuum pump or nitrogen purge for your brazing. those are important.

we just installed one of these at work, along with an economizer:

Heat Pumps

A Concord heat pump is a smart investment every day of the year. Single-stage and two-stage operation heat pumps available.

www.concord-air.com

it installs like a 2 stage unit, but the condenser is a 5 ton inverter unit with LG on the circuit board. it adjusts itself to the load, informed by the Y1/Y2 call.

Looks like that is part of Lenox.The literature talks of 5 operating modes (3 cooling and two heating) ... wonder what is going on?

All the major USA players are partnering w/ asian manufacturers -- they have the knowledge building consumer level variable speed equipment/ compressors. Carrier is using Toshiba compressors (same as in Mitsubishi mini-splits) in many units now. I have used the Carrier Infinity 5 speed in a few projects -- the compressor has five (5) speeds in heating and cooling mode. Initially this was the only model using the Toshiba rotary compressor -- they now use it in the full variable speed unit and have dropped the Scroll.

I don't know if the 5 speed compressor is the same as the full variable one. I was told it does not have 5 windings -- it is controlled through the inverter. The cost of the full variable inverter must add a fair amount and then you need to control all the stages vs just five (5). It's a question of does more really get you that far. I'm sure all of this will keep getting cheaper and Variable Speed will be come the norm except on the lower end.

There seems to be this middle line of products that use temp pressure to adjust the compressor -- like the Bosch unit. It's sort of above my pay grade on operation but it must be easy to do as the units are less expensive and they use a traditional thermostat.

The algorithmic system on the 2 stage heaters has been around for many years as a way to get a multistage unit without the need for more expensive controls. They must add more money to the unit than one would expect.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

Looks like that is part of Lenox.The literature talks of 5 operating modes (3 cooling and two heating) ... wonder what is going on?

All the major USA players are partnering w/ asian manufacturers -- they have the knowledge building consumer level variable speed equipment/ compressors. Carrier is using Toshiba compressors (same as in Mitsubishi mini-splits) in many units now. I have used the Carrier Infinity 5 speed in a few projects -- the compressor has five (5) speeds in heating and cooling mode. Initially this was the only model using the Toshiba rotary compressor -- they now use it in the full variable speed unit and have dropped the Scroll.

I don't know if the 5 speed compressor is the same as the full variable one. I was told it does not have 5 windings -- it is controlled through the inverter. The cost of the full variable inverter must add a fair amount and then you need to control all the stages vs just five (5). It's a question of does more really get you that far. I'm sure all of this will keep getting cheaper and Variable Speed will be come the norm except on the lower end.

There seems to be this middle line of products that use temp pressure to adjust the compressor -- like the Bosch unit. It's sort of above my pay grade on operation but it must be easy to do as the units are less expensive and they use a traditional thermostat.

The algorithmic system on the 2 stage heaters has been around for many years as a way to get a multistage unit without the need for more expensive controls. They must add more money to the unit than one would expect.

i think this is very similar to the bosch unit. inverters are not expensive anymore, and you need sensors to protect the equipment anyways (vs the old one like I have at home that will burn itself out if something goes wrong). plus there's economies of scale to be had if you make more inverter units - they can take that even further (and this line does) by having fewer sizes to sell. you just flip the DIP switches to tell it what size it is supposed to be.

now you can stock 2 machines, 3 and 5 ton, instead of 4 or 5.

 

[yeldogt]

i think this is very similar to the bosch unit. inverters are not expensive anymore, and you need sensors to protect the equipment anyways (vs the old one like I have at home that will burn itself out if something goes wrong). plus there's economies of scale to be had if you make more inverter units - they can take that even further (and this line does) by having fewer sizes to sell. you just flip the DIP switches to tell it what size it is supposed to be.

now you can stock 2 machines, 3 and 5 ton, instead of 4 or 5.

That flip the switch thing has me confused ..... by all accounts the sweet spot is in the 65-80% range. It would seem this would throw everything off if you went with the smaller sized through the dip.

It's interesting stuff ... My brother had two of the bosh units installed. Retrofitted onto existing equipment and they seem to work very well -- i just don't know how! They are quiet and are clearly modulating even with the set fan speed

 

[u3b3rg33k]

That flip the switch thing has me confused ..... by all accounts the sweet spot is in the 65-80% range. It would seem this would trow everything off if you went with the smaller sized through the dip.

It's interesting stuff ... My brother had two of the bosh units installed. Retrofitted onto existing equipment and they seem to work very well -- i just don't know how! They are quiet and are clearly modulating even with the set fan speed

in AC mode, all you really need is to stack up liquid behind the metering device, and keep an adequate supply of it for the metering device to meter. how big the ODU is doesn't matter from the indoor coil's perspective.

a big ODU that's not working hard (say, a 3 ton unit doing 1 ton of work), should end up more efficient once it throttles down, than a 1 ton unit with a smaller condenser running full tilt.


heat pump mode is another story, it depends on the tricks they can throw at it. vapor injection, etc.

 

[tstaude]

I don't see you saying anything about a vacuum pump or nitrogen purge for your brazing. those are important.

we just installed one of these at work, along with an economizer:

Heat Pumps

A Concord heat pump is a smart investment every day of the year. Single-stage and two-stage operation heat pumps available.

www.concord-air.com

it installs like a 2 stage unit, but the condenser is a 5 ton inverter unit with LG on the circuit board. it adjusts itself to the load, informed by the Y1/Y2 call.

I have a vacuum pump I use for automotive applications, would have to get adapters.
also saw guys slow flowing nitrogen while brazing, but they didn't vacuum down the lines, thought that was strange. Is that because of the nitrogen in the lines?

 

[u3b3rg33k]

I have a vacuum pump I use for automotive applications, would have to get adapters.
also saw guys slow flowing nitrogen while brazing, but they didn't vacuum down the lines, thought that was strange. Is that because of the nitrogen in the lines?

you can't vacuum until after you braze (unless you're vacuuming out the refrigerant before you open it up). flowing nitrogen is the norm for brazing. keeps oxygen from making a mess of the inside of the pipe while you get things toasty.