Need a subpanel - what did I buy?

[scott45]

I only need a 50A sub-panel in my garage and after wrestling 80 feet of 6/3 feed cable through a 1" PVC conduit with 3 90s and 4 45 degree elbows I realized I may have a sub-panel issue.

The problem is that I don't think I bought the right thing at the local big box store - see pic. I wired it up for giggles and left a lot of cable to play with just in case so don't flame me for the hatchet job. If you're wondering, the other end of the 6/3 feeder is laying in the grass near the house and not connected to a thing.

From reading the forum I gather I shouldn't be connecting the neutral and ground wires together on the same bus but the "125 amp Main Lug" box I bought only has one bus other than the hot - again, see the pic.

So did I buy the wrong thing? If yes, what do I need to look for? There wasn't one box on that aisle labeled "sub-panel" so I'd love to have something to search or ask for.

Also, is it ok to have the 6/3 feeder wind back and forth as it comes up to the sub-panel or should it be a straight shot?

Thanks!

 

[PRH44]

Is that an attached garage

 

[PRH44]

Regardless you will not be attaching the neutral and the ground on the same terminal.
You need to purchase a separate ground bus several manufactures like to sale them as a separate part.
What type of cable did you pull? 6/3 w ground romex? NM cable?

 

[jrsulo]

You have more then on problem......the pros will be along shortly !!!!!!

 

[scott45]

Detached garage.

I was hoping I could buy something that would have all the parts included but maybe the cheaper route is to just buy the "mini bus" for my ground wires.

If there is such a thing at this particular big box store will I also have to get a piece of #4 grounding wire and an 8 foot copper clad ground rod?

The feeder is 6/3 with ground - Romex NM-B 600v according to what's printed on it.

 

[Norcal]

Is the conduit outdoors or underground? If your answer is yes to either one, you have more problems.

 

[scott45]

It's both, but it's buried and contained within 1" PVC conduit. I REALLY hope that's not an issue because it was a bear to pull and not that cheap either...

 

[PRH44]

Norcal is correct you do have a problem. WRONG CABLE not rated for underground use

 

[scott45]

Seriously?? Why in the heck would those turkeys at the home store let me buy this stuff knowing what I was going to use it for? This makes me sick... all that time and money is just gone then?

Is there ANY way to use NM-B underground?

 

[jrsulo]

Seriously?? Why in the heck would those turkeys at the home store let me buy this stuff knowing what I was going to use it for? This makes me sick... all that time and money is just gone then?

Is there ANY way to use NM-B underground?

Nope

 

[PRH44]

Sorry scott45 I am feeling your pain. I wish I could tell you yes but it would not be true, not legally anyway.
Do you have conduit installed the entire length panel to panel?
If you do you could pull individual wires, but that would mean purchasing new wire.
You could try and throw the monkey on the home store's back siting the fact they sold you the wrong wire, and they need to replace it with the proper wire?

 

[brewchief]

Seriously?? Why in the heck would those turkeys at the home store let me buy this stuff knowing what I was going to use it for? This makes me sick... all that time and money is just gone then?

Is there ANY way to use NM-B underground?

There is a reason they are working at a retail store making $ when they could be making $$$$ if they were an electrician.

I believe 3 90s and 4 45s are a few two many degrees to meet code as well.

 

[scott45]

I've got conduit from structure to structure, yes. Since it was such a PITA to pull though I'm just going to drop the extra coin and get the direct burial stuff, rip out the conduit and put the new cable in the same hole. Good thing I haven't yet filled the trench I guess.

Ok, so I've got three questions:

1) What kind of cable do I need to be shopping for assuming I want to stick with copper vice aluminum? The breaker I got for my main panel is 50A so the sub doesn't need to be too much bigger than that.

2) What kind of sub-panel do I need to be shopping for? Need some specs I can regurgitate to whoever is selling me the panel.

3) Do I need a ground rod for this detached garage or can I depend on the ground from the main panel?


I'll also be taking the 100' of NM cable back to the guys in orange so they can add it to their shelf with the rest of their custom cut cable returns..

 

[scott45]

I believe 3 90s and 4 45s are a few two many degrees to meet code as well.

Didn't even think of that... wouldn't having direct burial cable in there eliminate that concern?

 

[PRH44]

There is a reason they are working at a retail store making $ when they could be making $$$$ if they were an electrician.

I believe 3 90s and 4 45s are a few two many degrees to meet code as well.

Indeed it is 360 max. between pull boxes. There are some options here but its going to be some additional labor and material.

 

[PRH44]

OK Scott. I know you are ticked. Lets walk through this thing and get you fixed up.
First off your panel is fine it is only a six circuit so you do not need a Main breaker panel.
You will be driving a ground rod at the garage no problem there.
The wire is what we need to fix.

 

[Aceman]

1" PVC conduit with 3 90s and 4 45 degree

Why so many? Just because they sell premade elbows doesn't mean you should use a ton of them. I usually try to keep underground runs between 2-3 90's max. If you need to jump down in the ditch and shave some corners of the edge of your ditch, do it. You want to bow the conduit around gradual corners, not use premade elbows to do it.

Secondly, I would not recommend direct burial wire.

 

[PRH44]

How many bends do you have in the trench before you turn up?
For the size conduit you have you would be best served using THHN/TWHN copper wire. 3# 6 and 1 #10 ground is needed.

 

[PRH44]

Why so many? Just because they sell premade elbows doesn't mean you should use a ton of them. I usually try to keep underground runs between 2-3 90's max. If you need to jump down in the ditch and shave some corners of the edge of your ditch, do it. You want to bow the conduit around gradual corners, not use premade elbows to do it.

Secondly, I would not recommend direct burial wire.

Spot on Aceman thank you. Listen close to this advise as it may save your install.

 

[scott45]

How many bends do you have in the trench before you turn up?
For the size conduit you have you would be best served using THHN/TWHN copper wire. 3# 6 and 1 #10 ground is needed.

I could show the pictures and further display my ignorance but unless someone asks for them I'll tell you that I've got 405 degrees worth of bends in this run as it is now. I could cut that down to 315 if I moved the sub panel to the front of the garage instead of the side as I have it but not much else can be done because of a septic field I need to avoid.

I was thinking of just taking my sawzall to my beautifully laid conduit, extracting the NM wire and then dropping in the direct burial. I really don't want to mess with either trying to remove the wire that's in the now or trying to pull another run through an uncut conduit with 405 degrees of bend. What's wrong with using direct burial cable?

 

[pattenp]

Nothing is wrong with using direct bury cable as long as the trench is clean with no sharp stones or debris that can wear through the insulation over time. It's best to place sand in trench an partially back fill with sand to protect the cable. Also lay electrical marker tape at least 6 inches above the level of the cable. Direct bury cable also has to be buried deeper than PVC conduit. 24 inches vs. 18 inches.

 

[pattenp]

For the grounding at the garage use #6 solid copper wire for the electrode conductor and put in 2 rods a minimum of 6 ft apart from each other.

 

[Norcal]

"What's wrong with using direct burial cable?" Conduit is cheap insurance, why not use some of the NM cable in the garage & leave the panel where it is, pull 6 AWG THWN, 2-black, 1- white (tape is not permitted for 6 AWG & smaller), & 1- 10 AWG green. I am leaving some info out because am too lazy tonight....

 

[mrb]

post some pictures of your trench and each end of the conduit. that will help us help you.

 

[matt151617]

You can direct bury cable... it's called UF. It's going to be even more expensive than the Romex you bought. I could go with quadplex aluminum cable (or 4 THWN aluminum cables) buried in conduit. You can do 1" conduit but it'll be a lot easier to pull through bigger conduit. You could always use the 1" conduit for internet/cable lines.

 

[Wastedwagesracing]

Nothing is wrong with using direct bury cable as long as the trench is clean with no sharp stones or debris that can wear through the insulation over time. It's best to place sand in trench an partially back fill with sand to protect the cable. Also lay electrical marker tape at least 6 inches above the level of the cable. Direct bury cable also has to be buried deeper than PVC conduit. 24 inches vs. 18 inches.

Is the electrical marker tape something special or can a person just use anything as an identifier?

 

[PRH44]

#4 and larger is permitted to be identified in the field. The following is the code article allowing such practice
(B) Sizes 4 AWG or Larger. An insulated grounded conductor
4 AWG or larger shall be identified by one of the
following means:
(1) A continuous white outer finish.
(2) A continuous gray outer finish
(3) Three continuous white stripes along its entire length
on other than green insulation.
(4) At the time of installation, by a distinctive white or gray
marking at its terminations. This marking shall encircle
the conductor or insulation.
as you can see item (4) does specify a product type. Tape is cheap and readily available and is the industry norm however other means would be allowed as long as it encircles the entire conductor

 

[Coolerman]

Lord, I had problems last night pulling 3 #3's and a solid #8 through 75 feet of 1 1/4" PVC with only ONE 90 degree bend! How in the world did you do what you did? No wonder your about to take the sawzall to it all... Good luck getting Home Depot to take the wire back... I was told when I bought mine that it was non-returnable.

 

[pattenp]

I guess you could use a general warning tape that has nothing printed on it, but you can get the electrical warning tape with a printed warning on it.

Is the electrical marker tape something special or can a person just use anything as an identifier?

 

[pattenp]

What was the wire type you pulled? THWN? Did you use wire pull lube?

Lord, I had problems last night pulling 3 #3's and a solid #8 through 75 feet of 1 1/4" PVC with only ONE 90 degree bend! How in the world did you do what you did? No wonder your about to take the sawzall to it all... Good luck getting Home Depot to take the wire back... I was told when I bought mine that it was non-returnable.

 

[PRH44]

Lord, I had problems last night pulling 3 #3's and a solid #8 through 75 feet of 1 1/4" PVC with only ONE 90 degree bend! How in the world did you do what you did? No wonder your about to take the sawzall to it all... Good luck getting Home Depot to take the wire back... I was told when I bought mine that it was non-returnable.

Solid #8 didnt do you any favors and I always prefer 1.5" over 1.25" when possible for 100 amp services. When pulling cable the individual wires must be must be staggered back on the head to make it small. The success of a good pull is all in he feed. just a small drag on the feed drives the friction coefficient way up. You must actually push the wire in the conduit if you can. Timing is key also Only pull when feeding. Normally a 3 count is used between efforts. Of course Lube is important Polywater type J is the king of lubes but expensive. Regular polywater is awful with PVC. The standard is Yellow 77 for cable under 600 volt several others out there.

 

[jbberns]

Lord, I had problems last night pulling 3 #3's and a solid #8 through 75 feet of 1 1/4" PVC with only ONE 90 degree bend! How in the world did you do what you did? No wonder your about to take the sawzall to it all... Good luck getting Home Depot to take the wire back... I was told when I bought mine that it was non-returnable.

SOLID #8 is the key word

 

[Aceman]

Lord, I had problems last night pulling 3 #3's and a solid #8 through 75 feet of 1 1/4" PVC with only ONE 90 degree bend! How in the world did you do what you did? No wonder your about to take the sawzall to it all... Good luck getting Home Depot to take the wire back... I was told when I bought mine that it was non-returnable.

You're not supposed to be pulling solid #8 through conduit.

310.106(C)

 

[scott45]

OK ok... here's the pics of my job site you all are looking for. I used a fair amount of Joy dish soap to get things rolling and eventually the cable was poking out on both ends. Great feeling until I got on here asking about my panel.

If I paid $2.65 per foot for this custom cut length (100') of 6/3 how much could I expect to pay for the direct burial cable?

Like I said, I REALLY don't want to have to pull anything else through conduit on this job. I had to get my neighbor over here with his 125' fish tape the first time and I'm not sure I can buy enough beer to get him over here again for another pull...

 

[jbberns]

I hate using factory 45s and 90s when running pvc. I know using 90s is sometimes necessary, but it makes it tough pulling wire.

 

[Aceman]

Pic 1:

That pipe coming down the hill from your house should bow back around to your garage wall in a big sweeping arc. You don't need that extra 45 and 90 laying in the bottom of the ditch. You need to redig that last 10-15' of ditch to make that happen.

Pic 3:

Same story, shave the corner out of the ditch under that black drain pipe so the conduit can bow into the ditch without a 45.

If I was in your position right now, here's what I'd do. I would pull the conduit with wire in it out of the house and garage. Pull the whole thing out of the ditch and lay it on the ground somewhere. When you need to run some #50 amp circuits in the garage cut the conduit/wire at the length you need and slide the pvc off it.

Install new 1" pvc without all the extra elbows like I mentioned and repull individual conductors. It will be 10 times easier this time, I guarantee you. You should only have 2-45's coming off the house foundation and one 90 turning up the wall at the garage. That's it. Any more than that and you're doing it wrong.

 

[Coolerman]

What was the wire type you pulled? THWN? Did you use wire pull lube?

3 #3 THWN copper conductors and 1 #8 solid copper. No lube was used and yes I should have used it but figured it was such a short run...

The solid copper was not the issue it was mostly the pull "rope" I used. It was a 1/8" vinyl coated wire rope. It stuck to the PVC like glue! As long as the wife pushed while I pulled it would move ok but when my splce got to the 90 elbow coming up into the garage it became quite difficult to pull it on through.

One last thing... I know that I should have gotten the stranded #8 but HD only had like 50' left on their spool and they had plenty of the solid. I knew it would add a bit of handling difficulty, but figured electrically it should be fine.

Does it violate any code having it in conduit? It should not be a problem pulling it back out if I have to though I prefer not to...

 

[pattenp]

Scott45, to add more to your misery, the conduit that's exposed going up the side of the foundation needs to be Sch.80. The Sch.40 is okay where not exposed to possible damage. I'm just guessing you used Sch.40 the whole run.

 

[Falcon67]

If you try a re-pull, get that cable lube at the home center. It's much slicker than dish soap IMHO, and lasts longer. Use rubber gloves because once you get your hands covered, you almost can't get back in the house LOL. I pulled my 2-2-2-4 AL cable with it and with the wife pulling and me feeding it went real quick. Only 180 worth of bends, but it went a lot easier than I expected.

 

[scott45]

Good information here guys, thanks very much! I just got off the horn with the local electrical supply store here and was convinced that some #4 6/3 with ground direct burial aluminum cable would work just fine.

So if I go with that, drop some sand in the trench and buy some schedule 80 plastic parts to for the above ground stuff I should be ok, right?

One last thing... there's a driveway invovled here and while it's dirt now it will be concrete later. Does code say I need a stretch of conduit here? If yes I assume I could just reuse a stretch of the 1" stuff I have now.