This is a theoretical number, as the picture attached is a newer panel, unknown origin
Need Advice - 2 x 200 Amp Panels Possible?
- Thread starter RyanEricW
- Start date
This is a theoretical number, as the picture attached is a newer panel, unknown origin
sberry
Banned
There are probably guys here can explain the exceptions better than I can but,,, it could even go so far as to say that it could be based on applied load in THEORY,,,, such as the breaker on a dedicated circuit being sized for short circuit and not thermal. ( again a disclaimer for theory) But the air conditioner that has an actual draw of 13 on a 30 and a dryer with actual of 21 on 30, maybe even motor circuits etc (air comp) where the fla is substantially lower than the ocpd.
The breakers add up to 60 or more but the actual applied may be 35.
We should have some patience with this, guys that been doing it a long time now find it instinctive for lack of better wording but it can take a while to gather.
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The 2 x 40s are across from each other in the picture
Didn't we just say the same thing?
How about providing the actual info?
What relevance does that have behind a theoretical situation that I'm trying to understand?
Radix2
Well-known member
so finish the math - given 20 stabs at 125A each, the theoretical max breaker load for that panel is - 2500A...
This crazy idea you were taught "2x the main breaker rating" is complete nonsense - is there any other reason you would like to upgrade the panels?
2x 200A panels are done all the time for residential "400A" service
The first upgrade that might make sense is to see if you can go to a 100A feed to the sub panel if you think the loads on the 60A panel are going up significantly, or upgrade panel 1 to 200A, then do it.
Many alternatives, but lets base them on real requirements.
sberry
Banned
Because he wasn't sure where you got that number, if you associated it with a 200 panel etc. I wasn't quite sure what 200 had to do with it either.
I have to move the main panel because a bathroom is going there, which means both would need to be rewired anyway.
Before I dare say something incorrect again, what's the correct way to do a load calculation?
Right now I have about 30 breakers between the two panels, so you guys really think a single 200 would handle it?
sberry
Banned
That is a valid reason to move. I will let someone else describe the load calc, its been so long I don't even remember the details and can do it by guess really. But while you wait make a list of all the major electric appliances. Cooking, AC, water heaters, gas or electric. Hot tub,laundry , could include the sump I spose, , sq ft, how many bath and bedrooms. List your general location, climate can be a factor.
Innovate1
Well-known member
If the second panel doesn't need to move then I see no reason to change it. Just leave it as a subpanel and consider upgrading the feed wires to it for 100A. It avoids running all the circuits to the other panel and will leave some open spaces for future expansion too. Since the main panel needs to be moved anyway an upgrade to 200A seems reasonable. If the main panel is moving to the location of the second panel then perhaps combine them. I am not familiar with load calculations but my impression is they are rarely done in residential work.
If you give a bit more information about the space and what large loads are planned others may be able to give some advice about the total capacity. Unless you have a big shop with multiple people working at the same time I think 200A should be plenty.
I don't think you mentioned the brand of panels. In this area there are some older panels from makers that were determined to have safety issues. If you have one of those then you should be changing it out but for problems with that brand not the capacity rating.
If you give a bit more information about the space and what large loads are planned others may be able to give some advice about the total capacity. Unless you have a big shop with multiple people working at the same time I think 200A should be plenty.
I don't think you mentioned the brand of panels. In this area there are some older panels from makers that were determined to have safety issues. If you have one of those then you should be changing it out but for problems with that brand not the capacity rating.
TRWham
Well-known member
sberry
Banned
As much as the previous discussion may seem I am an upgrade junky. And ,not sure of any of the fundmentals of design. ewed up,,, and the customer doesn't really know but got the elevation and a couple things fupap. I could have got rid of a hard to make lb if I woulda unscreded the fine job in a pretty good location.
It looks typical, customer was thrilled, I did extra work to get it right and shoulda moved the panel a bay and moved it up and the base down and back to backed the fittings, put it together with a ******., duh.
Anyway he may need to meet local disconnect rules, who knows when and where the service comes in at. My neighbors musta contracted with someone, poco buried the wire to within about 60 ft from the house where they plant a ******, dipshit sets a pole and goes overhead to the house. It was a fricked gift.
So if I gonna move it might cost the same to start over and redesign it if possible if its old. If I had outbuildings and outdoor utilities might go for 200A 8 space with feed thru lugs outdoor at the meter and do all I could to go underground etc.
I would put in 2 new 100A panels where I wanted them. I might consider load shedding advantages and balance load. I have 400 and would just as soon been 200 in the end. Being able to shut the power off thru a single 200A main is the way to fly, it isn't the goal to see how much you could use. Make aux power easier, can shut off your main totally in an event.
If there was resale, if it was going to be a commercial operation etc then some cost, some use and some added difficulty. I have seen only some overloaded equipment in residential from 60 to 100 but never a new 200. I did a local tavern. They overloaded a 200. The panel was flush on a south wall, in summer, hot and they had some **** runnin on Fri night. Every fuggin thing, They had 5 fryers, 2 coolers, ac, microwaves and coffee pots, lights back in the day. I put a new base, another 150 on it and shed some load and a little wire routing. We did have city water. There were only a few days a year so demanding and in the winter not an issue, didn't have the sun shining on a brown wall the panel is nailed to. Larger service you need for continuous equipment. Given there is thermostats and timers on much of it and some modern lights even you would have to be operating 10 decent appliances at once to trip up 200. If its built in the early 70's there is no time like now to change out everything wrong with it, could do a lot following a service upgrade.
I like, my faves are upgraded with redesign. I leave an old panel in the corner off to the side of an old federal panel and ser all rotted off and new ****, I pay for sometimes 1 circuit inspection and install a gfci and even switched light fixture. I used to tip them like that but permit and inspection is now 150$.
It looks typical, customer was thrilled, I did extra work to get it right and shoulda moved the panel a bay and moved it up and the base down and back to backed the fittings, put it together with a ******., duh.
Anyway he may need to meet local disconnect rules, who knows when and where the service comes in at. My neighbors musta contracted with someone, poco buried the wire to within about 60 ft from the house where they plant a ******, dipshit sets a pole and goes overhead to the house. It was a fricked gift.
So if I gonna move it might cost the same to start over and redesign it if possible if its old. If I had outbuildings and outdoor utilities might go for 200A 8 space with feed thru lugs outdoor at the meter and do all I could to go underground etc.
I would put in 2 new 100A panels where I wanted them. I might consider load shedding advantages and balance load. I have 400 and would just as soon been 200 in the end. Being able to shut the power off thru a single 200A main is the way to fly, it isn't the goal to see how much you could use. Make aux power easier, can shut off your main totally in an event.
If there was resale, if it was going to be a commercial operation etc then some cost, some use and some added difficulty. I have seen only some overloaded equipment in residential from 60 to 100 but never a new 200. I did a local tavern. They overloaded a 200. The panel was flush on a south wall, in summer, hot and they had some **** runnin on Fri night. Every fuggin thing, They had 5 fryers, 2 coolers, ac, microwaves and coffee pots, lights back in the day. I put a new base, another 150 on it and shed some load and a little wire routing. We did have city water. There were only a few days a year so demanding and in the winter not an issue, didn't have the sun shining on a brown wall the panel is nailed to. Larger service you need for continuous equipment. Given there is thermostats and timers on much of it and some modern lights even you would have to be operating 10 decent appliances at once to trip up 200. If its built in the early 70's there is no time like now to change out everything wrong with it, could do a lot following a service upgrade.
I like, my faves are upgraded with redesign. I leave an old panel in the corner off to the side of an old federal panel and ser all rotted off and new ****, I pay for sometimes 1 circuit inspection and install a gfci and even switched light fixture. I used to tip them like that but permit and inspection is now 150$.
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sberry
Banned
Are you trying to appreciate property? I even swing the insurance guy by and make sure he see the big ole green sticker on it and some new wire. Sometimes it makes sense the poco even want the meter improved or changed, none of it has to follow the old design. I buy the wire like the gas and put new. I believe in 73 if it was inspected would have had all grounded cable, I got no problem with some of that but new 4 wire to any equipment that needs it. If you have gas use it. Water heat, any cooking and cloths dryer and you couldn't overload 100 if you try. Plus that stuff may run during outage and removes about all load from electric.
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
Nothing wrong with this other than that second panel MIGHT trip the 60A breaker in the first panel if a lot of loads are turned on simultaneously.
The simple version of a load calculation for a dwelling unit.
You need to determine what you have for electric appliances,
Stove, dryer, water heater, A/C, electric furnace, ect. The first two should use the value given in the code most of the time. Electric dryer 5KW, Stove 8KW. All others use the nameplate rating. If you have non coincidental loads, like A/C and electric heat you use only the larger of the two in your calculation.
Each kitchen small appliance circuit should be calulated at 1500VA
Each laundry circuit is calculated at 1500VA.
For general lighting and receptacle load use 3VA per sq/ft.
You need to determine what you have for electric appliances,
Stove, dryer, water heater, A/C, electric furnace, ect. The first two should use the value given in the code most of the time. Electric dryer 5KW, Stove 8KW. All others use the nameplate rating. If you have non coincidental loads, like A/C and electric heat you use only the larger of the two in your calculation.
Each kitchen small appliance circuit should be calulated at 1500VA
Each laundry circuit is calculated at 1500VA.
For general lighting and receptacle load use 3VA per sq/ft.
Jim greengo
Well-known member
How long have you been doing electrical work?
Just because someone doesnt give you the answer you want to hear,doesnt make them wrong.
Jim greengo
Well-known member
You'll never get that kind of a load in a house,put an amp meter on one leg of service coming into panel and turn on everything in the house.
Tell us what the amp meter is reading,then repeat on the other leg.
You'll be nowhere close to that number,the main will trip long before .
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Jim greengo
Well-known member
No his comment is perfect for the situation.
Jim greengo
Well-known member
No. Neither of you know me personally, and like his comment, yours contributes absolutely nothing to the discussion.
dcg9381
Well-known member
I have 2 x 200A panels on a single meter.
This was a "recommended configuration" by my power company. I wonder if you call yours (engineering department) and tell them you need to support 2 x 200A mains, they might be able to give you options.
In my case, the feed is rated for 320A continuous and splits at the meter to 2 x 200A main breakers.
I've attached the pedestal diagram.
How you swap in 2 x 200A panels in your situation depends on a lot of things... But yes, lesser capacity circuits CAN feed larger capacity panels if they are adequately overload-protected (just like your 60A circuit feeding a 100A panel).
This was a "recommended configuration" by my power company. I wonder if you call yours (engineering department) and tell them you need to support 2 x 200A mains, they might be able to give you options.
In my case, the feed is rated for 320A continuous and splits at the meter to 2 x 200A main breakers.
I've attached the pedestal diagram.
How you swap in 2 x 200A panels in your situation depends on a lot of things... But yes, lesser capacity circuits CAN feed larger capacity panels if they are adequately overload-protected (just like your 60A circuit feeding a 100A panel).
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Thank you.
Chances are the power company won't upgrade anything unless you are adding serious load. Most of the time when I do 200a upgrades the power company leaves the #4 overhead and ~15kva transformer. Shows how overkill many 200a services really are.
Jim greengo
Well-known member
Jim greengo
Well-known member
sberry
Banned
They left a 15 on my 400, said they would replace it if it was a problem. They must have seen this show before. I got a lot of stuff, bet I never reached 200 and very very rarely 100. I have walk in cooler, 3 hp well, most welding is 1 machine at a time, I do have an electric cloths dryer. My main comp is modest at 3 hp. It would have to be freak to hit 100, the cooler is 26. It wouldn't trip 100. I did it during construction as a temp once, never did. As I mention, at the time the 400 seemed like a good idea, wpouldnt do it again unless I had to. It really didn't cost me much, diy and some stuff free or already had. It looks pretty but it a pain in the *** for outage. The well and outbuildings run on one panel, everything inside shop on another. Both panels inside, the larger LB is to the storage building and there is a 2 1/2 thru the floor feeds back out for 3 other. If I had to do this again would put the 200 feed thru 8 space outside and go to the inside with feed thru. I had it like that on the original building was here and changed it out when I did this, part of it was when I told them a new load calc they moved the pole and ****** for free.
What I have looks great, no one but me notices that if I had to do over again would make a couple changes to the design.
What I have looks great, no one but me notices that if I had to do over again would make a couple changes to the design.
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Jim greengo
Well-known member
So,what is the actual load on each of those breakers/circuits?
gsmith22
Well-known member
OP could have used this:
https://www.engineersedge.com/excel...ential_electrical_load_requirements_14672.htm
its the most detailed NEC compliant calc I have found
https://www.engineersedge.com/excel...ential_electrical_load_requirements_14672.htm
its the most detailed NEC compliant calc I have found
ard
Well-known member
^ That was unnecessary, IMO.
Yes, OP clearly had some headstrong ideas AND a bit of a chip in his shoulder- but it did seem like he was open to guidance (if a bit grudgingly)
(and dont know why greengo bumped this dead thread he already posted in!
)
Yes, OP clearly had some headstrong ideas AND a bit of a chip in his shoulder- but it did seem like he was open to guidance (if a bit grudgingly)
(and dont know why greengo bumped this dead thread he already posted in!
)Jim greengo
Well-known member
I was going through some of my old private messages earlier today and came across a couple from him talking about there only being so many astro Van's registered in the Omaha area,and to watch my back.
Then a couple others he sent me talking about unloading a gun into me.
Just was wondering if hes coming for christmas dinner,since he missed out on thanks giving here at my place.
Then a couple others he sent me talking about unloading a gun into me.
Just was wondering if hes coming for christmas dinner,since he missed out on thanks giving here at my place.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
I was going through some of my old private messages earlier today and came across a couple from him talking about there only being so many astro Van's registered in the Omaha area,and to watch my back.
Then a couple others he sent me talking about unloading a gun into me.
Just was wondering if hes coming for christmas dinner,since he missed out on thanks giving here at my place.
Wait what?
He made several threats to you?
Have you let the admins know?
dcg9381
Well-known member
Well, I take it he will be missed.
ard
Well-known member
fwiw...
Each post has a "report" button.
BUT ALSO, every PM will have a report button.
Jim, you really should report that PM- if nothing else, mods and admins will be aware if someone else gets hassled. The mod can then see the actual content of the PM.....
Thats just crazy....
I was an admin on another forum and was stalked/threatened a few years ago. (Imagine that, with my sunny and sweet disposition...) Ultimately we doxed the guy, lots of talk no action. But it was unnerving.
Each post has a "report" button.
BUT ALSO, every PM will have a report button.
Jim, you really should report that PM- if nothing else, mods and admins will be aware if someone else gets hassled. The mod can then see the actual content of the PM.....
Thats just crazy....
I was an admin on another forum and was stalked/threatened a few years ago. (Imagine that, with my sunny and sweet disposition...) Ultimately we doxed the guy, lots of talk no action. But it was unnerving.