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Need advice for new 240v circuit for 5hp air-compressor

TheGreyGoose

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Jan 27, 2017
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Hello gents, I've checked around in the electrical / lighting threads and just can't find exactly what I need. If anyone can give me a steer to any sister threads I will delete this but I may have some hurdles not mentioned in other threads so I felt this worthy of a post.

I need to run a new high amp circuit for my large air compressor, a late 80's or 90's Saylor-Beall 705 with a Doerr 5hp motor. The motor badge says single phase 230v / 29 amp (F type..whatever that means). Luckily I have two final slots left open on my home's main service panel (200 amp) which is located on the exterior of the house on the back of my garage.

I'm placing the compressor on a concrete patio slab right behind the garage up against the house so the wire travel / length will require 35ft at most. I'm thinking I will want to run most of it from the panel, then inside the garage along the back wall, then back out and over ~6ft to the closet enclosure that the compressor will live in.

I already have a dedicated 30 amp breaker for my Harbor Freak CE-170 welder which I installed last year and and if it was within code I'd thought of just adding onto the last of two receptacles I had ran for it but quickly realized I don't want to trip the breaker if I'm welding and the air-comp kicks on too. I could of course shut off the compressor during this time but in time that may prove to be a nuisance so I figure I need them on separate breakers and I'm guessing that the air-compressor may need more power being 5hp.

Currently the 3 wires coming from the compressor are sheathed in ~10ft of flex conduit from where it was previously hard wired in the shop of the previous owner. I figured I would keep it the same way and wire it to the new receptacle box or a service disconnect with a lever and would install that box in the closet. I also wanted to know if I could mount a plug on the end. I'm pretty sure I couldn't even use a plug with flex conduit without need of swapping over to some SJOOW cable or the like or that it's against code to do so. And even if ok I probably should not use any plugs since it will be basically be an outdoor mated connection.

So.. I'm sorry this is so lengthy. My main questions are:

#1 -- What size breaker should I use for a 230v / 29amp motor? 30amp, 35amp, or 40 amp? I assume any of those three can use #10 gauge THHN orange type Romex or do I need to run 10 gauge flex conduit inside the garage wall (and will actually run it through ceiling joists near other runs). *I did find a good archived thread on the WeldingWeb forum with a similar project and his spec's are very similar but his motor was 21.5 amp. So do I need a larger breaker, bigger wire, etc for a 29 amp motor? ( Here's that thread for reference .. http://weldingweb.com/archive/index.php/t-34599.html )

#2 -- I also want to wire in a shut-off box inside the garage right before the receptacle box so that if ever needed for things such as going on vacation for or any extended months of non-use, I can just shut off power to the receptacle box there rather than having to go outside, open the main panel, and shut off the breaker.

Is this ok to do and what kind/type of shut off box would be recommended?

#3 -- If I'm going to hard wire the two connections inside the receptacle box rather than use an outlet and plug what type of connectors should I use to mate the wires? I assume large wire nuts is not the proper way to do this. I mean it may be ok, but should I use the bolt / crimp type and electrical tape instead?

And lastly,

#4 -- Since the tool connection point will be on the house exterior and has flex conduit (~1" diameter) from the tool what type of face-plate or box should I be looking for? I assume it needs to be moisture rated since this is outdoors. I also recall in the past that for whatever reason some codes require that if you use flex conduit or pipe on one end of a fixture or tool, that you are supposed to use the same all the way to the service panel. If that's the case then should I ditch the idea of Romex inside and conduit outside? Thoughts?

#5 -- Lastly, in the thread I linked above in #1 the last poster "Cotton" also recommends use of a motor starter with a thermal overload relay. Is that the big box on the side of my compressor that already exists, or is this something additional to add on in between the receptacle box and the line into the main power box on the compressor itself? Excuse all my nooby-ness but while I have wired a few houses before and have done a lot of other electrical work I'm really new to wiring in big shop tools.

#6 -- If it wasn't obvious I'm trying to avoid paying an electrician $500 to do this for me lol. It's just one new circuit.
 
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TheGreyGoose

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Here's the photo album link for this project (hosted on Flickr). I tried several times to just imbed single pictures and it's just not working anyway I've tried it. I will update the reel as I complete the project or as anyone makes requests. https://flic.kr/s/aHskWB7qDb
 
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TheGreyGoose

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I've been trying to post a picture of the motor badge for 30 min. I think I'm just going to pull a few teeth out instead. I think it will be less painful lol.
 
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Norcal

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Unless you want to spend some serious dough for pin & sleeve, or Meltric devices, a standard receptacle is not rated for a 5 HP motor, hard wiring is going to be the only way, if conduit is used then 10 AWG THHN THWN could be used, if using NM cable AKA "Romex®" then 8/2 NM is the minimum size. It is required to use the motor amperes listed in the NEC, not the motor nameplate amperes.

I've been trying to post a picture of the motor badge for 30 min. I think I'm just going to pull a few teeth out instead. I think it will be less painful.

Post it to Photobucket or other photo hosting site & then post the link here.
 

wyliesdiesels

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Modesto, CA
WoW :eyecrazy:

way too much to read way too many sub topics to cover in one comment so i will break it up.

BTW all of this has been covered before in numerous compressor threads but here goes....

I need to run a new line for my rather big air compressor. It's a late 80's or 90's Saylor-Beall 705 with a Doerr 5hp motor. The label says single phase 230v / 29 amp (F type..whatever that means).

Code requires wire be sized @ 125% of NEC FLC based on motor nameplate HP. For 5HP(28a FLC) this would be 35a rated wire- either #10 THWN in pipe or 8/2 NM-b.

However, your motor has a way higher amp rating than most typical 5HP motors(20-23a) so your motor may have a higher than 5HP rating. Post the nameplate...

I will need to run 25ft of wire to a new receptacle box (which I will place on the outside wall) and it's then maybe another 8 feet to an outdoor closet against the house that will house the compressor.

I do already have a dedicated 30 amp breaker for my Harbor Freak CE-170 welder and thought of just adding another run onto the last of two receptacles I ran for it, one inside / one outside, but also realized I don't want to trip the breaker if I'm welding and the air-comp kicks on. So yeah, I figure I need them on separate breakers and ideally that would be likely be the best anyway.

Motors over 3HP need to be hardwired.

And your motor may need a circuit that is larger than 30a as the FLA is pretty high for a 5HP motor.

Currently (no electric pun lol) the 3 wires coming from the compressor are sheathed in ~10ft of flex conduit from where it was hard wired to the last receptacle box in the shop of the previous owner. I figured I would just keep it the same way and wire it to the new receptacle box I will install on my garage's rear exterior wall rather than mount a plug on the end. I'm also pretty sure I couldn't even place an end plug with the flex conduit without need of swapping over to some SJOOW cable or the like and probably should not do so anyway since it will be an outdoor mated connection.

If you plan on hardwiring, then that is what you should do. Cant use a plug and receptacle UNLESS you plan n spending big money for pin and sleeve plugs and outlets...

So.. my main questions are:

#1 -- What breaker should I use for a 230v / 29amp motor? (see picture) 30amp, 35amp, or 40 amp?

You will prob need at least a 40a breaker to prevent nuisance tripping.

I also assume any of those three can use #10 gauge THHN orange type romex or do I need to run 10 gauge flex conduit inside the garage wall (and will actually run it through ceiling joists near other runs).

10/x NM-b wire, is too small for 5HP motor...see my first comment above.

*I did find a good archived thread on the WeldingWeb forum with a similar project and his spec's are very similar but his motor was 21.5 amp. So do I need a larger breaker, bigger wire, etc for a 29 amp motor? ( Here's that thread for reference .. http://weldingweb.com/archive/index.php/t-34599.html)

Spec's are different as your 5HP motor has an FLA above the NEC FLC figure for 5HP motor.

#2 -- I also want to wire in a shut-off box inside the garage right before the receptacle box so that if ever needed for things such as going on vacation for or any extended months of non-use, I can just shut off power to the receptacle box there rather than having to go outside, open the main panel, and shut off the breaker.

Is this ok to do and what kind/type of shut off box would be recommended?

A disconnect next to the unit is REQUIRED if the motor is farther than 50' from and not within sight of the breaker panel.

Use an A/C pullout disconnect rated for at least the same HP rating as the motor.

Does this compressor have a motor starter?

#3 -- If I'm going to hard wire the two connections inside the receptacle box rather than use an outlet and plug what type of connectors should I use to mate the wires? I assume large wire nuts is not the proper way to do this. I mean it may be ok, but should I use the bolt / crimp type and electrical tape instead?

Definitely need to hardwire it as Ive already explained.

Wire nuts would work just fine...

#4 -- Since the receptacle box will be on the exterior wall and needs to have a single flex conduit connection (~1" diameter) what type of face-plate should I be looking for? I assume it needs to be moisture rated and be nicely sealed, I just have never seen one before. I also recall in the past that for whatever reason some codes require that if you use flex conduit or pipe on one end of a fixture or tool, that you are supposed to use the same all the way to the service panel. If that's the case then I should likely ditch the romex inside? Thoughts?

U can get by with 3/4".

Since the J box will be surface mounted, just connect the conduit to the bottom of the j box and use a blank plate with a gasket.

#5 -- Lastly, in the thread I linked above in #1 the last poster "Cotton" also recommends use of a motor starter with a thermal overload relay. Is that the box on the side of my compressor that already exists, or is this something additional to add in between the receptacle box and the line into the main power box on the compressor itself. Excuse my noob-ness but while I have wired a few houses before and have done a lot of other electrical work, I'm really new to wiring in big shop tools.

Without seeing the pics, I cant say what you have. It could be a starter or pressure switch.

Contact an admin if youre having trouble uploading pics...

#6 -- If it wasn't obvious I'm trying to avoid paying an electrician $500 to do this for me lol. It's just one new circuit.

The guys on this forum have helped countless people wire their own compressor circuits without paying someone. If u stick around and grasp the ideas I have explained, u can too.

I've been trying to post a picture of the motor badge for 30 min. I think I'm just going to pull a few teeth out instead. I think it will be less painful.

contact an admin if u cant figure it out. It may be because you are new....
 

wyliesdiesels

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Messages
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Location
Modesto, CA
Unless you want to spend some serious dough for pin & sleeve, or Meltric devices, a standard receptacle is not rated for a 5 HP motor, hard wiring is going to be the only way, if conduit is used then 10 AWG THHN THWN could be used, if using NM cable AKA "Romex®" then 8/2 NM is the minimum size. It is required to use the motor amperes listed in the NEC, not the motor nameplate amperes.

What are your thoughts on the motor FLA(29a) being higher than the listed FLC(28a) for a 5HP motor in T430.248?
 
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TheGreyGoose

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Jan 27, 2017
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Damn guys, thank you so much for the instant support on this! It will really help me get it wired in by Friday. I posted the link for the badge photo in the second post (and tried to delete 3rd). Sorry for all the noob-ness, I just wanted to try and spell out everything I needed to accomplish in the first post. Photo album again.. https://flic.kr/s/aHskWB7qDb
 
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wyliesdiesels

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Modesto, CA
ok that box on top may be a starter but no way to tell without seeing the inside of it.

Can u take the cover off?

How is the existing wire connected? To the pressure switch? Post a pic of the pressure switch and a pic of the location where the existing wire is connected...
 
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TheGreyGoose

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The weblink shows all the pics on the photo reel so far. The first is of the pump and motor, The second pic is of the badge. I tried posting single pics but still can't understand how to imbed. I tried clicking on the little pic icon (here in the edit window) and then copied / pasted the code for one picture from the share code via Flickr but nothing shows up, just the actual weblink code and not the image. Sorry.

And yes, the box on top of the motor is rather large. I will crack it open in the morning. My assumption was that it just housed a capacitor but maybe there's more to it. I'll also take pictures of the pressure switch then.
 
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TheEquineFencer

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Farmville, NC 27828
WoW :eyecrazy:

way too much to read way too many sub topics to cover in one comment so i will break it up.

BTW all of this has been covered before in numerous compressor threads but here goes....



Code requires wire be sized @ 125% of NEC FLC based on motor nameplate HP. For 5HP(28a FLC) this would be 35a rated wire- either #10 THWN in pipe or 8/2 NM-b.

However, your motor has a way higher amp rating than most typical 5HP motors(20-23a) so your motor may have a higher than 5HP rating. Post the nameplate...



Motors over 3HP need to be hardwired.

And your motor may need a circuit that is larger than 30a as the FLA is pretty high for a 5HP motor.



If you plan on hardwiring, then that is what you should do. Cant use a plug and receptacle UNLESS you plan n spending big money for pin and sleeve plugs and outlets...



You will prob need at least a 40a breaker to prevent nuisance tripping.



10/x NM-b wire, is too small for 5HP motor...see my first comment above.



Spec's are different as your 5HP motor has an FLA above the NEC FLC figure for 5HP motor.



A disconnect next to the unit is REQUIRED if the motor is farther than 50' from and not within sight of the breaker panel.

Use an A/C pullout disconnect rated for at least the same HP rating as the motor.

Does this compressor have a motor starter?



Definitely need to hardwire it as Ive already explained.

Wire nuts would work just fine...



U can get by with 3/4".

Since the J box will be surface mounted, just connect the conduit to the bottom of the j box and use a blank plate with a gasket.



Without seeing the pics, I cant say what you have. It could be a starter or pressure switch.

Contact an admin if youre having trouble uploading pics...



The guys on this forum have helped countless people wire their own compressor circuits without paying someone. If u stick around and grasp the ideas I have explained, u can too.



contact an admin if u cant figure it out. It may be because you are new....


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Very good and professional response! I'd say you pretty well nailed it.
 
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TheGreyGoose

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ok that box on top may be a starter but no way to tell without seeing the inside of it.

Can u take the cover off?

How is the existing wire connected? To the pressure switch? Post a pic of the pressure switch and a pic of the location where the existing wire is connected...

Ok, I've finally updated my Flickr reel ( https://flic.kr/s/aHskWB7qDb ) with a few shots of the pressure switch and the contents of the rather large lunchbox sitting on top of the 5hp motor. The box contains 3 capacitors from Dayton. I'm wondering if I should replace them seeing how I can only assume this motor is at least 25+ years old. Thoughts? (and upon first opening I saw the foam and seriously thought...old sandwich maybe lol??)

Back to one of my questions; I assume the main power box is only the pressure switch. Should I consider investing in a mag starter or are they essentially the same thing but one is somehow better for the pump and motor? Excuse my lack of intelligence in these things as I'm new to all this but definitely find it fascinating.

As for the final wire up choices; I've decided to go with a 40-amp breaker, 8 gauge wire, 1" conduit and the A/C disconnect box. While the compressor will be in direct eye-sight of the service panel (which is outside on the back of my shop) the pump is located "outside" too even though I'm enclosing it in a shed / closet that will attach to an adjacent wall. If I understood the replies correctly I think I'll be doing everything right. If anyone thinks I need to go 50 amp on the breaker with 6 gauge wire please let me know!
 

wyliesdiesels

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Location
Modesto, CA
U have a mag starter. Its in the box labeled control. The contactor is on the left amd the overload heater is on the right.
 
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