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Need advice - Garage Ceiling

gtr1999

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Jun 25, 2012
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CT
Last week I had a thread on ceiling hoist for my garage. I was thinking about hanging a winch from a 2x6 header over the 2x6 ceiling joists to lift up to 500 lb. Sounded good anyway. Some of you had some very good ideas and setups in your garage and I appreciate your opinions. What I found Saturday changed my plans though.

When organizing in the shop I noticed a couple of sheetrock seams opening up. I have a pull down ladder so I was able to get up there to look at the area from above and clearly the ceiling was separated from the 2x6 joist. So I made up a 2x4 "T" and used my floor jack to press the sheetrock back up and noticed there were nails used, not screws, and few of them. So I screwed in enough to hold it up. It was really one 4x8 sheet that was loose and I think part if not all the reason was nails and very few of them to start.

Then I started to look at it and it didn't seem right, I wanted to check on the joist size and spacing anyway for the hoist calculations. I found the joist at 32" centers. I was expecting 24", I could see they weren't 16's. So I abandoned the thought of using the joint to support another weight on a hoist. I don't know if the parts I stored up there are part of the problem or not but I don't like the 32" center. I removed some items and spread the others out over the joist. There is 1/2" OSB down around the ladder entrance for storage. It is sagging over the open bays in some places, plywood would have been better.

Next I was able to pull the original building permit from the town for the garage 15 years ago. On it the joists are spec'd out as 2x6 on 16" centers.

What I learned from the previous owner is he cut corners where he could or just did a hack job- like not correctly wiring a few 3 way switches, Poor plumbing connections, and walling in the oil tank so I can't even see the level gauge. So I was concerned that maybe things were done after the permit was pulled to cut cost or the build didn't follow what the permit spec'd out.

I was able to contact the builder to see if he recalled the build. I was told the code at time, 2002, was 32" centers and they did not finish the interior, just slab, walls, and roof. The owner installed the sheetrock and wiring so that explains the lack of screws and nails used.

Here is my question. I don't care about storing up there, maybe some light things but not a part inventory. I have a dry finished basement with heat and dehumidifier so I will make a parts storage space the. My concern is with the weight of the sheetrock on the 2x6 x 24" joist. While the ceiling hasn't come down since I owned the house- 1.5 years, I doubt it did over the past 15 either. I don't see any other signs of loose SR, only where I had parts and the lack of screws. Should I be concerned of it coming down? I don't want to move out the shop and replace the SR to add bracing, and working above is tight, not a standing space at all, just about 4' at the peak. I won't be able to really get in from the top to add bracing. I asked the builder this question but since they didn't do the finish really didn't want to make a call.I am inclined to remove the rest of the parts and check other seams adding in screws and leaving it alone.

Thoughts?

Thank you
 
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johnnyradiant

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Vancouver, BC
Sheetrock has typically required 24" oc spacing as a max. I don't know if they ever made/make it stating it is good for 32". The problem is it will want to sag between joists just like an undersized joist will want to sag between posts. If it is nailed poorly and wanting to sag it could very well be pulling an army of nails with it and you might not notice. If you screw it be careful not to drive the screw beyond the paper otherwise you will be in the same boat only instead of pulling the nails it will just drop down past the screw. It should have been double nailed. It may be strong enough to stay put but not to stay flat but, if it ever gets wet, or high humidity is an issue in the shop that could be your tipping point for failure. In time if not already you will likely be able to see where each joist is, not by nail/screw marks but from the sags.

You don't mention the span of the joists but a hoist is likely going to be heavy enough to 'sag' the joist without any payload on the hoist, if the sheetrock hasn't already 'sagged' it. With a known history of cut corners and barely meeting the threshold of MINIMUM building standards I would not want to add anymore load to the original structure.
 

cdestuck

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Altoona, Pa
What size is your garage ceiling and do you expect to spend a good number of years there? If so and it's within your budget, I'd pull down that drywall and beef up the ceiling with more joists. Either put SR back up or even OSB to avoid finishing the seams. Then do your engine hoist. Just my 2 cents.
 
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gtr1999

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Jun 25, 2012
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CT
Thanks guys. Kind of my thoughts. I ruled out hanging a hoist completely, I will go with something else, either a Gantry or Lift table with forks. I will also remove some of the items currently up there in storage. I am aware of screwing into the paper level as well. The finish on the ceiling is terrible, swirl marks, low spots, etc.

I don't want to pull down the ceiling after spending weeks shoe horning everything into the garage. Emptying it out again would be a hassle for sure.

How long will I stay here, I dunno. I am 58 so how much longer will I he working on my cars and be able to move the next day? 5-10 years, who knows. The parts I use are drying up now too because the good suppliers are dying out leaving imported junk on the market. The car hobby is heading into transition I do believe.

It's frustrating because I hired a house inspector to find things like this and once I moved in I found more- real problems. I don't know how the permit and finished work descripencies could have been allowed to be passed other then the inspector not doing his job 15 years ago. I don't know if I have any legal recourse since I bought the property as is and the builder didn't install the sheetrock so while 32's are wide they might be fine without the SR.

I think my best course at this time, unless others have a better idea, is to screw in where I can reach, remove the load so I only go up there for wiring runs or very light boxes, and watch it. I don't see any sign of roof leaks so it's stays dry. We do get humid summers from June to Sept but after 14-15 years it's still up. I also know that there should be 2 nails next to each other with SR but would expect to see that in a 1950's-60's house not a 15 year old garage. How much was saved by using a few nails? Or was it just ignorance in how to install SR? One thought I had was to screw in some 8' 1x4's on the ceiling to sandwich the SR and also allow me to screw in small load hooks to hang power cords
 
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PoorOwner

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IF you don't have insulation in the attic, you should be able to lay in the attic and have a helper cut out some 2x4s for you to the correct length, where you can put them nail them perpendicular to the joists, and then from the bottom you can shoot some drywall screws to the new support 2x4s, using framing nailer or palm nailer will go pretty fast, maybe 2 minutes per new 2x4 added.

Is the ceiling drywall 5/8" or 1/2" ?? 5/8" is what it's supposed to be.
 
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gtr1999

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I thought about that but after 45 year of wrenching my back is shot, popped a couple of disks so that isn't something I can do anymore. It appears to be 1/2" SR.
 

lakeroadster

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What is the span (length of the ceiling joists)?

My concern is with the weight of the sheetrock on the 2x6 x 24" joist.

Did you mean to type 24' here, indicating a 24 ft span?

Any idea what grade of lumber is used? There should be grade markings on the side of the 2x6's.

The existing 2 x 6's... they are not spliced, correct? They are one piece each, correct?

Your approved drawings specified it to be 16" centers and it wasn't built that way, no way around it, the builder is a hack and now you're left dealing with their sub-standard work.

Do the approved drawings specify the lb/ft rating capacity of the ceiling?

32" spacing doesn't meet code unless you have a drawing stamped by a Professional Engineer that is also approved by the local jurisdiction, which it appears you don't.

Your best bet is to pull down all the sheet rock and install joists to meet the specifications of the approved drawing on file.
 
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gtr1999

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yes that was a typo, they are 24 ft long. No drawings - I just have a copy of the permit I got from the town. The builder doesn't reply because they didn't install the sheet rock. I don't know if I want the town hanging around opening a can of worms either. Yeah I am stuck with the previous owners mess.

I agree removing and reinforcing the joist would be the way to go but there is just too much under the ceiling to move and store and it's about 20* F here now so outside work is out since snow is always an issue.

I may look into hiring someone to get up there and add studding to help.
 

mcbane

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If you are going to pull down sheetrock and put in all of the missing joists, see if you can put in some beefier joists so that there is a bit of capacity for the hoist you want. You may be able to get 2x8s or 2x10s in there depending upon the roof framing.
 
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bczygan

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DETROIT! Arsenal of Scrappers
Thanks guys. Kind of my thoughts. I ruled out hanging a hoist completely, I will go with something else, either a Gantry or Lift table with forks. I will also remove some of the items currently up there in storage. I am aware of screwing into the paper level as well. The finish on the ceiling is terrible, swirl marks, low spots, etc.

I don't want to pull down the ceiling after spending weeks shoe horning everything into the garage. Emptying it out again would be a hassle for sure.

How long will I stay here, I dunno. I am 58 so how much longer will I he working on my cars and be able to move the next day? 5-10 years, who knows. The parts I use are drying up now too because the good suppliers are dying out leaving imported junk on the market. The car hobby is heading into transition I do believe.

It's frustrating because I hired a house inspector to find things like this and once I moved in I found more- real problems. I don't know how the permit and finished work descripencies could have been allowed to be passed other then the inspector not doing his job 15 years ago. I don't know if I have any legal recourse since I bought the property as is and the builder didn't install the sheetrock so while 32's are wide they might be fine without the SR.

I think my best course at this time, unless others have a better idea, is to screw in where I can reach, remove the load so I only go up there for wiring runs or very light boxes, and watch it. I don't see any sign of roof leaks so it's stays dry. We do get humid summers from June to Sept but after 14-15 years it's still up. I also know that there should be 2 nails next to each other with SR but would expect to see that in a 1950's-60's house not a 15 year old garage. How much was saved by using a few nails? Or was it just ignorance in how to install SR? One thought I had was to screw in some 8' 1x4's on the ceiling to sandwich the SR and also allow me to screw in small load hooks to hang power cords

Your remediation ideas are good, but don't give up the hoist idea.

Go up tot the top of you truss bottom chords and install a beam sized for the load you want to lift and the span of the beam. Extend it across enough trusses, so that they will support the weight of the beam. Place the beam at the truss intermediate member locations.

When you want to use the beam for lifting, install temporary supports under each end of the beam.

Bill
 

orangeblood

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"How long will I stay here, I dunno. I am 58 ...."

only 58 years old?....heres hoping you got a lot of miles left amigo!

good luck with your project
 

Jinks

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Daytona Beach
Hmm, 32" on center? Don't suppose the P.O. could have used 16" to pass inspection then removed half of them before sheet-rock do you? If you want good long term repairs I'd pull all the old sheet-rock down, put the 2X's back & resheet-rock.
 

lakeroadster

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Central Colorado
Your remediation ideas are good, but don't give up the hoist idea.

Go up tot the top of you truss bottom chords and install a beam sized for the load you want to lift and the span of the beam. Extend it across enough trusses, so that they will support the weight of the beam. Place the beam at the truss intermediate member locations.

When you want to use the beam for lifting, install temporary supports under each end of the beam.

Bill

Gtr1999 said in his other thread that he doesn't have trusses Bill..

No trusses, I want to get back up there and see for sure if 2x4 or 2x6. I have been loading up the garage and blocked the loft stair pull down. I have to put things away before I can get up there again.
 
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lakeroadster

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It's still OK.

All he is supporting with trusses or joists, is the weight of the beam. And also providing some lateral resistance.

The temporary columns are what support the load to be hoisted.

Bill

All depends on the beam weight and the quality of the existing joists / trusses. Here's what we know thus far, yet haven't seen any of the structure:

  • The 2x6 x 24 ft ceiling joist were specified to be 16" on center.. but they are actually 32".
    Strike One
  • Somebody later added drywall to the ceiling, using nails, and some of that is becoming un-nailed. Additionally there is attic storage.
    Strike Two

Based on what we know.... adding any weight seems haphazard.

Trying to avoid Strike Three
 
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gtr1999

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CT
Again thanks to all with your suggestions.
I have completely ruled out a ceiling hoist and overhead storage as the structure stands now. I can do something else that won't load the joists.

I do agree the best way to correct it would be to remove the ceiling, install correctly spaced joists, make modifications to use a ceiling hoist and re Rock it. But I have the garage full and want to complete the wiring so I can get back to building. I have a car in one bay and machines, tool boxes, benches, etc in the other 2 so I really don't want to do that. So I have to go to plan B without making Strike 3!

I can't say if the loose SR was like that when I bought the place 1.5 years ago or not, I just didn't notice it or look at the joist spacing since the PO stored stuff up there. I had to move a lot of things from 3 locations so one moving day I had my son up there and handed him a lot of boxes of mixed weight. He placed them around the ladder opening since you can't stand up there unless you're 4' tall- I am 6'3' 250 lbs so I feel like I am standing in a clowns house up there. I really just started to organize things the week after Xmas and noticed the loose seams on the sheet under the part storage area.

As mentioned in another thread I was thinking of ways to lift differentials and crates and this started the whole thing. I made the mistake thinking the PO and builder did things so I wouldn't have to follow up on. I was wrong.

So my only concern is keeping the SR on the ceiling joists. I may be overthinking things as I an very **** with things like building strong heavy duty car parts.

I was also going to build some wood wall racks, supported off the joist and wall. I will redesign that thought as well.

What I really would like to do, hit lotto and retire!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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gtr1999

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CT
To follow up, I had a carpenter come in last evening to take a look. Given the lack of fastners used on the ceiling 15 years ago I am going to screw the S**T of it and he said adding 2x4 support is all I need to do to tighten it up but not to store and hang anything off it. He agreed the best solution is to pull down the ceiling and rebrace and resheetrock but I don't want to go through all that now that the shop is full. I am going to hire him to take care of it and see how it goes. As long as I an not wearing sheetrock for a hat I am good. I will go back to a gantry type lift or Die table with hydraulic lift for what I have to do. The die table is small which will be fine for loading an S10 p/u but the Gantry will be nice to pull the body off my vette in the future too.

Still my goal=retire asap..... nope stock market crashed yesterday so got to keep on working!
 
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