Need advice on champion brute platinum drill bits

[hondacivic247]

The top right are the dewalt gold ferrous, the ones on the left are the champions and the bottom middle 2 are the Alloy

 

[hondacivic247]

I took a rag to it to clean off the oil and swag, so there's some fiber stuck in the hole's but you can see how the champion looks ragged like the TY Alloy and the dewalt is clean as can be

 

[hondacivic247]

I don't know much at all about those Dewalt drill bits. I've got a small selection of made in Germany pilot point bits that are similar looking but are a plain (bright uncoated) finish.

I find the marketing of those dewalt bits a little annoying though, they seem to concentrate way too much on the coating without any mention of the underlying HSS. I mean the way they often just call them "titanium" or "cobalt" is annoying to me. And I must have googled furiously for about 3 hours straight one time trying to find out what the heck "gold ferrous" is, and in the end I couldn't come up with anything other than it's just a Dewalt marketing term.

I know that when Dewalt first came out with that design of bits they were made in Germany and by most reports were pretty good quality. These days I think they're all made in China, so I wouldn't expect all that much from them. To be honest I think that if you used them like you did with the Triumph's, trying to enlarge holes and getting them jammed etc, you'd probably have a whole bunch of broken and bent bits sitting in front of you right now.

Anyway, they may work well for you. I'd be interested to know how they turn out after you've given them a bit of a workout.

I will bring them to work and test them on the drill press in the same steel. I Google gold ferrous and came up short like you but the coating hasn't rubbed off on them if it is in fact a coating that's used like titanium. Maybe mine were made in Germany as there at least 2-3 years old now

 

[hondacivic247]

If anyone wants to me to test there bits send me one and I'll put it in the drill press at work and we will compare

 

[uart]

Yeah don't worry about differences in chip length. Split point drill bits are well known for better chip breakage and consequently smaller chips.

I'm surprised that your holes (champion and ty-alloy) are so rough though. Just how thick was the steel you were drilling? I know that in thin sheet the pilot point has the advantage that the horizontal shoulder of the main drill tends to break though "all at once", whereas a conventional drill bit may tend to want to "corkscrew" though the thin stuff, leaving an out of round hole.

Was the tip of the drill just about through the material before the main cutting lips were fully "burrowed in"? Usually with material that thin you can have troubles with regular bits. I actually use my pilot point bits specifically for drilling sheet metal.

If you try it again with thin material you may have better luck with some aluminium or hardwood backing.

 

[hondacivic247]

It looked to be 1/8 thick steel. I'm not sure where the drill bit was in the cutting. I'm wondering if the bit's are out of round?? Is that even possible?

I drilled some more holes tonight with my cordless drill and same ragged style holes, the backside of the hole is even worse with the champion the dewalt is smooth as glass on both sides

 

[uart]

It looked to be 1/8 thick steel. I'm not sure where the drill bit was in the cutting. I'm wondering if the bit's are out of round?? Is that even possible?

No, that won't be the issue.

I drilled some more holes tonight with my cordless drill and same ragged style holes, the backside of the hole is even worse with the champion the dewalt is smooth as glass on both sides

The "backside" of the hole is usually going to be somewhat burred and ragged. I usually deburr the hole exit after drilling. Like I said before, you can reduce that by backing the workpiece with something like hardwood or aluminium, so that the drill doesn't exit as aggressively.

The exit burrs aren't really the issue. They are easily cleaned up if need be, but the holes themselves should be clean and round if you're doing it correctly. Not trying to be insulting or anything, but I think your issues might be more related to technique than anything wrong with you new Triumph drill bits.

Anyway, I'm bored today so I'm going to go drill some 1/8" stock with some regular bits (some very high quality and some very cheap) and also a pilot point bit. I'll post some pics to compare.

 

[uart]

OK here are the result of the test. I used a slightly smaller size (13/64") size instead of the 1/4" you used, but a similar thickness (about 1/8") mild steel strap.

Each hole was drilled with a a different brand of drill bit. Four of these were top quality bits (Australia, Germany and USA), and the other four are dirt cheap from China. Can you tell which was which. TBH I couldn't tell if I did write them down as I was doing it.

BTW. Some were 13/64 and some the close but smaller 5mm, which is why the slightly different sizes.

 

[hondacivic247]

I don't see how my techniques were wrong in the hole's I did with a "drill press" they just look lI've **** and out of round almost, on thicker material when you look inside the hole it almost looks like it's threaded for a bolt it's not a smooth clean cut.

I will say I got the dewalt titanium bits few weeks back, there exactly the same as the gold ferrous just a different coating. Not sure where they were made but I assume China as there absolutely junk. Went to drill some 1/4 mild steel and they would drill but the edges all broke off, the metal under the nice coating looks cheap, I don't think it's HSS underneath. I ended up finishing the job with the champions, yeah the championsame may not make the best looking holes but I haven't had them fall apart like these. I'm going to pick up a set of gold ferrous and hope there as good as my older ones

 

[uart]

I will say I got the dewalt titanium bits few weeks back, there exactly the same as the gold ferrous just a different coating.

Do you mean that they also have that "bullet point" tip? I thought they were supposed to be the regular 135 degree split point type.

Not sure where they were made but I assume China as there absolutely junk. Went to drill some 1/4 mild steel and they would drill but the edges all broke off, the metal under the nice coating looks cheap

Do you mean that you're getting actual chipping of either the cutting lips or the lands (corners). That's pretty bad. Can you post some pics.

I'm going to pick up a set of gold ferrous and hope there as good as my older ones

Yeah maybe you lucked out and got the original made in Germany ones before.

 

[uart]

I don't see how my techniques were wrong in the hole's I did with a "drill press" they just look lI've **** and out of round almost, on thicker material when you look inside the hole it almost looks like it's threaded for a bolt it's not a smooth clean cut.

It's a bit hard to tell from your photos whether it's just the burrs that are making your holes look so rough, or if it's the actual hole itself. With the pictures I posted above, I clean the burrs and swarf off (file and wire brush) before posting the pics. This was just so that you could see the holes themselves rather than getting distracted by anything else.

Perhaps the drill was chattering or vibrating or something when you drilled those holes. You might try using small starter holes (this is called "spotting") rather than piloting with a through hole. With a spotting drill you're typically making not much more than just a cone for the following drill to start in. Sometimes for example I might use a short rigid 1/8" bit and just drill a small starter hole (there are purpose made spotting drill bits for this, but I don't own any).

I tend to get a lot of chatter if I have a through pilot that's too big. But you can also get a slightly rough looking hole if the bit wanders and bounces about on starting, which is something that might happen if you have no starter hole at all. Note that this would be much less likely to happen with the Dewalts because of the pilot point, but it may have been the issue with the champions.

With holes I drilled above I used a small starter hole to make sure that they started cleanly, and I also had that steel backed with some hardwood so that it exited fairly cleanly as well. I'm certain that if you did those things you'd get clean looking holes.

 

[hondacivic247]

The champion bits have been cutting well now and and stay sharp I've had to cut through close to 4 inches of mild steel with my 3/8 bit . I'll post pictures of the dewalts theyou broke at the cutting edge large chunks not even chips. The metal they used under the coating looks porous. I'm thinking of buying a set of milwaukee red helix cobalt bits for 35 bucks for 15pc kit up to 1/2 which seems like a good deal, but review said they don't stay sharp long and they twist the shanks...

A lot of people told me to look for 1960s-70''s hss drill bits that were USA made as they were great.

Overall I'm happy I got the champions even tho I had chipped 2 or 3 at the start I found when you do a piloit hole then step up to a larger bit you need to go up in rpms real quick then drop back down and it won't want to jam up.

 

[hondacivic247]

Just added another champion bit to my line up, the MSD 1 3/8 step bit. I have a erwin #4 I've used a lot but have needed larger holes just happened to look on ebay today and snagged the champion quick, brand new with no box for 18 bucks, 18 bucks can't even buy a Chinese step bit. Think I seen these retail for $70+

Hopefully it does better then the erwin as that one a single flute and the champion is a double symmetrical flute. I really abuse the hell out of them in 1/4 or slightly thicker steel when I need a larger hole then 1/2.

I'm trying to find a used drill doctor 500x thought I had one lined up but it was missing the alignment chuck thing which without that makes it useless

 

[uart]

I'll post pictures of the dewalts theyou broke at the cutting edge large chunks not even chips. The metal they used under the coating looks porous.

Yeah cool, post some pictures those chipped dewalt titaniums. I'd definitely be interested to take a look.

 

[uart]

I really abuse the hell out of them in 1/4 or slightly thicker steel when I need a larger hole then 1/2.

How do you get a straight hole in 1/4" plus steel with a step bit? Do you just drill from either side and accept a little bit of chamfer on each side.

I'm trying to find a used drill doctor 500x thought I had one lined up but it was missing the alignment chuck thing which without that makes it useless

Yeah I think the DD is the best plan for maintaining split point drill bits. I don't have one, but I mostly use regular (non split point) bits these days, and I can make a reasonable job of keeping these sharp with just a bench grinder.

 

[TomB19]

I'll have to take a look at those noresmans. We're they cobalt bits?

I have a set of Champion Brute XL bits and I really like them. They've done everything I've asked of them.

I suspect Norseman is substantially better, though. I have a set of Silver and Deming bits from Princess Auto (Harbor Freight type store in Canada) and they drill substantially better than the Champions. It didn't seem possible but they are much better.

Tons of guys here talk up Norseman. If the Norseman is as good or better than Silver and Deming, they will be a nice step up and they're about the same price.

 

[TomB19]

By the way, I love my Drill Doctor 750X but it is not a replacement for decent bits.

 

[hondacivic247]

Yes I have to hit it from both sides, I really have no choice when needing larger holes then 1/2 . Im not building anything for sale just home use so it doesn't have to be perfect. I made a plow for my tractor and it needed 7/8 size hole for the cat 0 pins

 

[hondacivic247]

How long did it take you to get good at the using the drill doctor I plan to get the 500x as it will do even the largest bits I have. I've seen lots of YouTube videos of people using them and some figured it out and others have a hard time getting it right. Also seen a drill angle finder to make sure there the same on each side