Need advice on heater for small shop

[PoorUB]

I need to call more propane companies to get their thoughts on the length I'm at but everything I've seen online says the max hose length is generally 150'.

My experience with propane companies is that they are clueless. My experience says they think 3/8" copper at low pressure works for everything!

The line from the tank to the shop can be virtually any length you are willing to pay for. The line pressure can be 10 PSI and regulated it down at the shop.

150 feet of 3/8" OD copper at 10 PSI will get you 130,000 BTU.

I would run larger, probably 1/2" poly underground for gas. You can run much farther. The sizing chart I just looked at goes up to 400 feet. There is no general length. There is no limit to the length, but it depends on the BTU needed and size of pipe or tubing.

I used to do maintenance in a manufacturing plant. They used LPG for heat and manufacturing processes and the tank was probably 2,500 feet away. I never measured it, but it was several city blocks. It could have been over 2,500 feet.

Line size is only limited by you bank account.

 

[Bbp78]

Thank you PoorUB, I would only need to run probably 25' to get the tank where it's not really seen from the street. I just called a local plumbing supply and he said he would recommend the poly instead of copper, is that what you're thinking as well? It seems like Poly is the common one now. I did call another propane company and they said the 154' is too far for them as well. I worked out in the shop last night for a little bit and it was 30 degrees, this is the last winter I'm dealing with this. Next winter, I'm going to be warm. I'm leaning back towards the propane since my neighbor thinks the mini split might not work well in my application. I've flip flopped so many times on this decision it's unreal.

 

[PoorUB]

Propane isn't a bad idea if you heat it only on the weekends.

As for the poly, here is one example. There are many manufacturers that sell similar poly pipe.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/HOME-FL...rs-Gas-Line-Detection-18-429440-005/311074240

 

[Jackfre]

Your best bet is the mini-split. If you decide to go gas look at the Rinnai EX22. Either LP or NG available. Buy the one you need. Vent comes in the box and needs only a 2 3/4” hole thru the wall. 80% eff. Easy install.

 

[ipgenie]

Since you already have the propane heater installed (save for the vent), I'd use that. It might cost more per BTU than a split but for infrequent use there won't be much annual difference in cost. The propane heater will likely warm up the space faster and you can use a wifi thermostat to turn it on remotely an hour before you will work out there so you walk into a warm shop. Plus it sounds like your neighbor is a great resource if you have trouble or need help getting it fired up.

One thing to be aware of with the poly, you will need a metal riser on each end where it comes out of the ground. The last one I bought was $100 for 1" (several years ago) so even though the poly is fairly cheap and super easy to install, those risers add up fast. If you have the trench dug, you might be able to get the propane supplier to lay the poly for you when they bring the tank so you don't have to buy more than you need.

If you need/want AC, you can always add a split later and have both options. Warm up fast with both running and then use the split while working or use the propane if you will be doing something that might use up most of your available service power. The split is much quieter which is nice when you are working and listening to music. My 18k BTU Pioneer was just over $900 on Amazon. You'd need a few tools to self install but that might be a great birthday present to yourself one of these summers once you get the ceiling insulated and can enjoy the AC more. The kids will get older sooner than you think and you'll have more time to spend in the shop.

I'm just a little older than you. My youngest is 14, oldest are 19 and 21 and 13 years after getting a vasectomy, we ended up with a bonus last summer, she is now 8 months old. Talk about a shock to the system. I used to spend a few hours almost every day in the shop but shop time has been non-existent lately so I got my knee and shoulder fixed and can recover while I'm spending time helping take care of her. She's awesome and lots of fun and things that are on hold now will still be there next year when she's a little older.

 

[drivesitfar]

Genie: great post and I go along with that thinking too especially since his neighbor is a good source for any repairs or modifications needed.

All: just curious cause I need to make about a 75 foot run off my main natural gas line to my fireplace on the other side of the house. A few members say I should only do black pipe but sounds like most of you do poly or copper?

 

[Bert_]

All: just curious cause I need to make about a 75 foot run off my main natural gas line to my fireplace on the other side of the house. A few members say I should only do black pipe but sounds like most of you do poly or copper?

Is this inside the house?

Poly can only be used underground.

Copper is iffy for natural gas. I have a short length of copper going to my grill on natural gas. It's been fine but I guess some natural gas is corrosive to copper.

 

[drivesitfar]

Bert: thanks for posting your thoughts. It’s about 15 feet inside the house and the other 60 feet is under my deck to the back of my fireplace. I’m thinking of just doing black pipe cause I think it will last longer and I’m pretty familiar with it but hot sure if I should put VC any shut offs or whatever in a long run like that.

 

[PoorUB]

Bert: thanks for posting your thoughts. It’s about 15 feet inside the house and the other 60 feet is under my deck to the back of my fireplace. I’m thinking of just doing black pipe cause I think it will last longer and I’m pretty familiar with it but hot sure if I should put VC any shut offs or whatever in a long run like that.

Anything you bury I would recommend poly. Black pipe underground has to be coated pipe and all the fittings properly wrapped with some gooey tape to keep water away. It will fail if not sealed up properly. Underground the poly is better than black pipe and easier to install. Anything through the house and outside to the riders for the poly can be black pipe.
I used to install anything up to 2" poly and "weld " the poly together with a special fixture. It was kind of neat. Now they have all these slip together fittings and anyone can do it. Just be certain to debur the poly or it will cut the o-rings in the fittings.

The poly kit I posted from Home Depot is cheap enough that I wouldn't even question it, just buy it.

 

[drivesitfar]

PB: thanks for the heads up. my piping extension will be above ground and attached to the foundation and under a deck so i'll probably stick with black pipe. unless more of you think the yellow flexible gas pipe is adequate to make about a 70 foot run off my inch to 3/4 at my furnace to service a new gas fireplace?

 

[Bert_]

PB: thanks for the heads up. my piping extension will be above ground and attached to the foundation and under a deck so i'll probably stick with black pipe. unless more of you think the yellow flexible gas pipe is adequate to make about a 70 foot run off my inch to 3/4 at my furnace to service a new gas fireplace?

Csst is definitely an option inside. I'm not sure if can be used outside? I don't particularly like it.

To me this is a clear choice of black pipe but it's easier to say that since I have a threader. The guys who run it often are using megapress now instead of threading.

 

[drivesitfar]

I have a threader too but mine is manual and I’m guessing yours is powered. Best place to buy black pipe?

 

[PoorUB]

PB: thanks for the heads up. my piping extension will be above ground and attached to the foundation and under a deck so i'll probably stick with black pipe. unless more of you think the yellow flexible gas pipe is adequate to make about a 70 foot run off my inch to 3/4 at my furnace to service a new gas fireplace?

I was confusing this with the other guys issues! If you can mount it well above ground then that black pipe is fine. If I remember, it needs to be above 6" or is needs to be handled like underground.

Although, we did a job where the customer wanted gas at the other end of the house. We racked our brains trying to figure it out and trenched it out in the yard and around the house with poly underground. We would have had to tear down ceilings in the house and avoided all of that.
You can buy the poly underground gas line up to 1" from home stores. Pros can get you any size you want.

 

[Bert_]

I have a threader too but mine is manual and I’m guessing yours is powered. Best place to buy black pipe?

Hand threading really isn't bad if it's 1" or smaller. I ran my rigid 141 by hand once because I didn't have the right adapter. That was on 4" pipe and I was tired after a few threads!

I've always bought black pipe at the plumbing supply. No idea about anything else.

 

[Kangaroo1956]

Hi, I'm hoping someone can provide some opinions and guidance. I'm sure this has been asked before several times and I apologize in advance if this is answered frequently. I live outside Philadelphia, PA and built a 16'x24' shop a few years ago for my woodworking hobby. I have a Propane Unit heater, but I never installed it because it needs to be vented through the roof and I need to buy a large 120 gallon Propane tank. During Covid, those tanks ended up increasing to around $1,500 but they are now back down to around $800 or so from what I've seen. I'm not too wild about this heater because it requires me to buy the tank, vent it and then have Propane delivered when needed. I'm thinking about buying an electric heater instead since it doesn't require any of those things. I have recently discovered King heaters KB models in case you were wondering what I was thinking about buying. My concern is that I have 60 amp service and the electric heater may require 30 amps. The only other things I would run while the heater would be on is 1 tool at a time. I have a Sawstop table saw, and other standard woodworking tools. Is this an issue if I install a 30 amp heater and only have the 60 amps? Or do I install one of those DIY mini splits since I don't have air conditioning either? I understand that will be more money probably, but I'd like to try to get this right when I do it. My roof is a little unique as the shop is shaped like a walk out horse shelter with a loft in the front that overhangs the front exterior wall by 4'. I don't know if any of that makes sense. In the back of the shop the wall is 10' tall, 7' from the back wall the ceiling is 148" tall and at it's highest peak in the loft which overhangs the front of the shop it's 15' from the ground. Thank you in advance if you have read all of this and for any guidance you can provide, it's greatly appreciated. I put so much time and money into building this shop, I need to finish this part and make it more comfortable.

I would have a manual J in the shop. Find out how much heat you need. Find how efficient the three heating systems are. Have a comparison of electric propane done. Find the cheapest and install it. Consider which source you would feel comfortable leaving when you are not there. No matter what you put in, the next guy after you're gone will find fault. Do your best, as questions. Have fun working in your shop. If anyone says anything, give them half a peace sign and walk away. Enjoy

 

[Bbp78]

Thank you all for your help. I've decided to go with the propane since I already have the heater installed. In the spring, I'll trench and run a line underground so I can get the tank closer to the street for the propane company. I called a few more companies and they all said my tank would be too far if I put it in the original location. I'll also insulate the roof I'm the spring. Next winter it will be warm. Thanks everyone again, I really appreciate all the help.