Need backyard fence boundary/placement advice

[Viper98912]

Hello everyone,

Need some advice on where to put the backyard fence.

We have a triangular shaped lot (in a cul-de-sac). The back 1/3 of the lot is an undeveloped, slightly hilly, wooded area with trees, vines, possibly some snakes and other small wildlife, etc.

We want to put in a fence to keep the dog in (and deer out, etc) but we're undecided on where to put the fence. There's also a walking trail at the back end of our lot (beyond the wooded area), and we've had a few people mistakenly walk through our backyard thinking they're on the side trail that connects back to the street (which annoys me that they're walking through my backyard). The side trail runs along one of our triangular sides, and there's already a wooden trail fence there that's slightly in the wrong place, already encroaching on our property line as you move towards the back line. Moving this wooden fence would be at a significant cost, and there's no reason to fight the HOA on it as it's all mostly wooded/lost area that we can't do anything with anyway. If it was all nice flat grassy land, it'd be a different story.

Back to the topic, where to put the back fence line -

Option 1) Put the fence to the side and back property lines (and merge into the existing wooden trail fence on side 2).
Pros: Fences in the entire lot; the day we sell this house, it's more "visual" to the next buyers as to where the boundaries of the house are; keeps anyone out of the back wooded area of our lot (although you really shouldn't be crawling around back there). [In terms of the boundaries of the lot, we're already stuck anyway though with that side trail fence that's in the wrong location as you go towards the back]
Cons: As with any triangle, the back fence line gets much longer the farther you go to the back. Also, with the undeveloped/hilly nature of the land, the fence line would go up and down significantly every few sections. I also don't know if fence builders will even be willing to try to put a fence back there (going to call for some quotes next week, but want to get an idea of where I want the fence first). Finally, once the dog figures out that the black aluminum fence is the boundary, we fear that she will be going back there all the time now that she knows of the new boundary, and we don't want her coming back to the house with additional ticks or snake bites, especially since we have copperheads here. [Putting in an invisible fence on top of a physical fence also kinda defeats this purpose...)

Option 2) Put the fence inward some, to where our grass line ends and the wooded part begins.
Pros: Cheaper; much easier to install; it will look better as it'll be more straight rather than up/down/up/down. Keeps the dog in to where she's not digging or roaming in the wooded area.
Cons: The back wooded part now may appear more "open" and people may assume it's HOA land rather than our land when they're walking on the trail. When we sell the house in the future, the buyers' visual impression may be that the lot ends where the fence ends, when it's actually a much larger lot. It may lower the value of the offer a buyer may be willing to submit.

Side note) I also debate on doing Option 2, but then putting another line along the back to show the boundaries of the property (although I don't know what to make this "line" out of.) But again now we're just doubling the work/cost on the back line... on an area that doesn't really matter much since it's wooded/undevelopable anyway.

So what are your thoughts? Where would you put the fence?

 

[theoldwizard1]

We want to put in a fence to keep the dog in (and deer out, etc) ...

You'll need a 10' fence to keep deer out.

 

[nadogail]

Request proposals from a fence contractor to provide you with some numbers.

If you option for a "Property Line" fence, Option 1', after survey locates your property lines; have monuments built and inform the HOA that the "Community Hiking Trail' cuts through your yard and request it be moved. If the HOA is unresponsive your attorney can generate a Demand Letter.

 

[Viper98912]

Before we get off track on the HOA...

The trail fence was actually built by the previous owner of the land before it was developed into homes. So the HOA may try to prove they have no responsibility. Paying lawyers fees and endless fighting may prove more lost money more than anything, as the real people who win in a lawsuit are the attorneys. At the end of the day, this is a small community and I've received no gripes from the HOA, when I probably should've deserved some. So, no point in going down the wrong path here.

 

[MerlinsBeard]

Everyone's preference and situation is unique, but with my family (2 little kids and a dog), I would lean towards option 2. Grass is relatively safer for both kids and dogs. I prefer to avoid situations where I'm pulling 20+ ticks off my kid (I had to do that this year when kid went up to grandparents and sat in the grass next to the woods). Thus, for me option 1 would be more negative than positive.

You can always put one or two no trespassing signs in your wooded backyard at your property border and see what effect it has before you make a decision.

 

[Half-fast eddie]

How much farther back is the property line from the edge of the woods?

 

[Viper98912]

The woods continue past the property line into more wooded areas (with more walking trails). The walking trail pretty much hugs the back property line, within a few feet. In essence, the walking trail somewhat creates a natural property line boundary as well.

 

[niget2002]

I'd do a hybrid of the two options.

I'd run a nice wooden fence along the grassy part of the property with a gate to access the wooded part.

Then I'd run an open iron or chainlink fence along the actual property line. Few HOAs allow chainlink, so you might have to go with iron. You could also do a semi-open wooden picket fence just along the outer property line. Pretty much anything to denote it's private property.

 

[FMB4]

... there's already a wooden trail fence there that's slightly in the wrong place, already encroaching on our property line

Your statement above is why you should have your property surveyed before you do anything. I'd also clear your fence plans with your HOA (I'm not a fan of HOAs) And yes, you'll need a fence that's at least 10' high to keep deer out. I say this because we had an 8' tall chain link that even smaller does cleared with ease.

Good luck, and hope all goes well for you!

 

[FordTruckWench]

Side note) I also debate on doing Option 2, but then putting another line along the back to show the boundaries of the property (although I don't know what to make this "line" out of.) But again now we're just doubling the work/cost on the back line... on an area that doesn't really matter much since it's wooded/undevelopable anyway.

4x4 posts, 3' above ground, with a horizontal hole drilled in them right near the top. Feed a chain through the holes from pole to pole. Run a screw from the side (or top) all the way into the hole thus pinning the selected chain link in place. This will make for an obvious boundary, but won't stop anyone from retrieving their errant Frisbee.

 

[billconner]

Not quite same but I'm clearing the "wooded" areas - removing brush and debris and just leaving trees above 4-5" - so I'd go with property line. We like seeing the trees down to ground, rather than just above shrubs. As far as trail side fence, if the previous owner put it in, it's your fence. If it's within a foot of property line, I'd leave it. I'd put new fence 4-8" in my side of rear property line. Not sure I'd try to keep deer out - I like watching them in our back yard all winter - but dog proof fence is a challenge to look good and do its job.

 

[engineer2]

I'm one who prefers to fence the limits of my property to avoid adverse possession or trespasser issues.

 

[Jinks]

Photos or drawings would probably be helpful. From your description I'm not sure why you object to walkers crossing the wooded part of your lot, but that's your prerogative. Also from your description I'd use just a marker fence (FordTruckWrench) to mark the back of the lot, & a good fence at the back of your mowed area.

You don't say how large the difference in the rise & fall of the land is, but if possible for appearance you could level the top of the fence & vary the bottom with the contour of the land. That might make your fence pretty low at some points & pretty high at others, but it might be worth looking in to.

 

[yatg]

Always fence to your property lines. Its your property, you're paying taxes on it whether you use it or not. People have no boundaries anymore, especially if they're not limited. Let it go and before you know it there'll be a homeless camp on your property.

 

[Viper98912]

Bill, thanks for the comments about clearing the brush as that's another thing we're debating -

What do we do with the wooded part if we put the fence to the property line?

We've debated cleaning it all up and just seeing the trees down to the ground, but these are tall pine and maple trees that will continuously just drop down needles and leaves and eliminate any cleanup we do. Also, since these trees are so tall, there's no sun that really drops down to the ground, so it's hard to plant anything there long term. The previous owner used to spray heavy weed & brush killer to keep it all smooth, but I'm not sure that have a smooth area is right either as it doesn't create a "barrier". We also don't want to cut down all of the trees, because the trees are nice and we don't want just barren land.

So this is just such an odd spot, because it's not pure wildlife/woods either where you leave it all natural, as we're in a subdivision.

 

[Viper98912]

Photos or drawings would probably be helpful. From your description I'm not sure why you object to walkers crossing the wooded part of your lot, but that's your prerogative. Also from your description I'd use just a marker fence (FordTruckWrench) to mark the back of the lot, & a good fence at the back of your mowed area.

The back trail is just off of our back property line (not on our property). No gripes there. There's a side trail that's on the other side of the side fence (that's on our property technically). No gripes there. The problem is when they don't take the side trail because folks are on a suburban nature hike, not thinking, and literally just walk up the middle of our backyard, next to our house, then up our driveway. They're lucky the dog wasn't out at the time.

 

[Viper98912]

Last one - the deer

We love the deer. They're awesome to watch. Even the dog likes watching the deer. We want them roaming around so we can watch them.

Until they eat momma's flowers and vegetable garden. Then all hell breaks loose in our house.

 

[greenskeeper]

nothing says “stay of my property” like a well positioned Gatling gun

 

[nadogail]

We are becoming used to the term "Defense able Space" when houses approach the woodland vs. urban boundary zone. Wildfires have become an almost certainty in many areas.

 

[bradpac]

I would probably go with option 2, but with a high chain link or iron fence along the part that borders the woods so the woods were still visible, but not attainable. If you wanted to outline the property line, a lower wire fence to keep out people, but let through wildlife would be my preference for the wooded area with a few no trespassing signs along the trail side. With resale, a lot of people go by what is listed on the paper and having a fenced in yard might actually be a preference over yard and wooded area together, you never know who the buyer is going to be, so don't plan for that plan for what you want.

 

[quickfarms]

If the side trail and fence are on your property the HOA may already have a claim for an easement by prescription.

the first thing you need to do is have the property surveyed. Because without a survey you do nit know where the property line is.

you also need to look at your title work to make shore there is not an easement for the side trail already. It could be buried in your CC&R’s.

good luck HOA’s are horrible and often do stuf that is so far outside of there legal authority

on large undeveloped parcels it is common to put a short section of fence at each corner or angle point, typically 1’ inside the property and nit fence the entire property due to costs and maintenance. Wood rots and the tweakers steal metal

 

[Viper98912]

So....

This thread needs some pics?!



I've attached the below. You'll see that there is a 10' + 10' easement for the side trail, which is where the fence starts. But then the fence deviates because there was a large retention pond there previously (property line was right through the middle of it). The retention pond was later filled in, which I'm happy about because it was probably a nasty mosquito hotbed.

In the picture, everything beyond the semi-circle (written in pencil, didn't pick up well on the scanner) is all wooded area. I've put in some different scenarios, whether following the property line, coming in a little bit from the line, or following the semi-circle-somewhat grassline, or squaring off with the grassline, etc, etc.

As for the survey, it's already been done before. There's markers in the ground that we found, and it matches the printout as per what we measured.

 

[thunderalley3]

We are going through a boundary issue now with a rental we own. We purchased it about 15 years ago and there was a somewhat current survey and we know the property owner on 2 of the 3 sides, with the other side being street frontage.
The property owner on the 2 of 3 sides had nice fences in place and were great owners. Well out of nowhere they decide to sell and we had always allowed them access to a private garage on the one side of our property, it had a nice driveway in with a gated fence, never an issue. Long story short they came to us about making that drive a formal right of way to the garage there, which I must say is not used as as vehicle parking, rather lawn equipment etc. They offer to pay for all costs incurred and a few dollars as well to sweeten the deal. We agree and they have a surveyor come out. What a mess this becomes, they have part of their lot fence on our property, not an issue except their power into the property is on our property inside their fence and the fence on the other side has about 30 feet of their property on my side of the fence. I ask them how they determined the property lines when they put the fence up, they said they put it where they thought the property line was and the previous owner of our property agreed. They just replaced the fences last year with a city permit and it was never questioned as the fences already existed.

Now comes the issues, if we give them the easement to the garage then our property just meets the minimum setback on that side and then when we take off the 30 or so feet that they actually own on the other side we are not able to expand the parking as we had planned. Also there is an issue with the power as they set all of the panels etc. in place and the power company hooked it up assuming it was on their property as it was behind their fence. We have told them we are willing to work with them as much as we can and they said they would deed the 30 feet on our side of the fence over to us as they, as well as the new buyers thought the fence was the property line so no harm done. That was until the buyers found out that was part of the property they are buying and said now if they have to give that up the deal is off and it is also off if they do not get the easement from us. I told them to hold the sale and we will figure out the best way for all concerned, We can give up what is needed to keep the rear fence with the power etc. and not be an issue for us, however they need to give up the property on the side to us and we will give them the easement. They are talking with their attorney and will get back to us with a plan.

Moral of the story, straighten it out now!! Put your fences on the property line and do not give any land up unless you are prepared to lose it and possibly more. Go to the HOA when you have a solid survey showing their walkway and whatever on your property as this now becomes your liability as it is on your property. What if someone falls and is hurt or worse and it is on your land? I know we can play what if's all day but straighten it out before years and years pass and everyone believes it is how it is until someone needs legal proof to sell or transfer and it is not how it appears.

 

[billconner]

Viper - I'd definitely leave the mature trees, cut and bushes or shrubs, and if necessary have the understory brush hogged every few years. Leaves and needles are fine.

I like the suggestion of just "L" pieces of fence at corners. Might also plant a few trees or start tossing rocks along property line.

I've had recent great success finding all of my property pins using the plat and description in my deed (from 1994), just working with a 100' tape, a dozen or 2 cheap 1x2 grade stakes, a compass, and a garden trowel. I almost bought a metal detector but didn't. If your time is more valuable - I'm retired and enjoyed the task - hire a surveyor. The one named in the plat would be my choice.

(I got a kick reading through all the sales and adjacent land and sub-division and such starting in 1890s.)

 

[FMB4]

Before we get off track on the HOA...

There is no "getting off track on the HOA" imo. You are either in compliance or you're not. And you don't want to be on the 'not' side with any HOA. Meeting HOA compliance from the start can save you a lot of time and money later (attorney fees for challenging any possible expensive to you HOA decisions, and demands, in court can could cost you far more than the total cost of what you're thinking of doing.

 

[Viper98912]

You misunderstood my comment about the HOA. I've read the HOA guidelines and still have to submit my plan for review and approval.

My point was that I don't want to get off track in this thread with everyone coming in to bash HOA's as how they're so horrible, etc etc. This thread is about placing a fence line, not about the goods and bads of HOAs or fighting with HOA boards.

 

[Half-fast eddie]

and said now if they have to give that up the deal is off and it is also off if they do not get the easement from us.

I would not let that be a factor in my decision. Too bad for the buyer, but they are trying to leverage the sale to get a bonus.

 

[p00p]

put up a privacy fence within the usable area & post No Trespassing Private Prop signs in the woods beyond the PF

 

[RPH]

What type of fencing is allowed? That will determine the materials. I’m out in farmland, I would use t posts and high tension steel, 2-3 lines. This allows you to define the perimeter quickly and cheaply.

 

[mikedodge]

If it were my property I'd fence the whole thing in and put up a second fence of some sort for the dogs. If you only fence in one area and leave the other part open people will think its done that way because its public access.

 

[ZRX61]

I'd fence to the property line at the back of the lot & along your side of the easement on the other. Then tear out the old fence built in the wrong place.

 

[FredWanaker]

I would chain link or barb wire, whatever is legal, the whole property, and post no trespassing signs. Then ask the HOA thru your attorney to move the trail to its correct position after reviewing a survey and the deed. In some states lenders require a survey every so many years in order to finance a sale. If that next survey has the encroachment on it of the HOA trail the lender could issue a condition that would delay the sale. Likewise, in other states, continued use of a property by the public constitutes an easement by consent. That is why certain trails get close one day every few years and all traffic refused to reassert the owner's rights. Let me restate - assert your right to your property. Then build your dog fence where it is convient to your landscaping, and put a gate in that will allow you to go mow, use, clean, cut down shrubs vines that encroach if you want to get rid of the woods - or leave it but at least you have asserted what is your property. Also if the HOA trail is in the wrong location and the title company missed it when they insured your purchase, it may be their responsibility to do the legal work if the HOA refuses to put the trail in the proper place. A former owner may have given them an easement that the title company missed when you bought the property, in which case the easement would probably stand but the title company would owe you the fair value of what land the easement took. You may need to consult with the attorney firm who represented you when you bought the home if you are in a state where that is common. Sounds like a lot but your question threw up some red flags where you could get burned if you fence in the wrong place, and there is a hidden easement there to the HOA.

 

[Viper98912]

Good morning everyone,

First I want to thank everyone for the suggestions and information. After sleeping on it, I've come up with what I'm thinking (and of course this is open to more feedback).

To begin, this HOA is a nice community of about 1.5 acre lots, and about half to two-thirds of them are "open" (no fencing). It leaves a nice open feel to the community. The only fences allowed are black aluminum and wood at a maximum of 6 feet, so chain link, steel cable, barbed wire, quicksand, land mines, etc are not allowed. If we were in the country, I'd think differently, but this is a nice quiet community. No trespassing signs would probably also be shunned upon, if not from the HOA, from your neighbors, for being unneighborly. It's just the reality, as everyone around here is "alright" (but of course, that doesn't mean you won't encounter someone who is willing to go beyond being right). I may consider a small "private residence" sign if any issues occur.

One of the big takeaways I took from this was a post about the young kids and dogs, and keeping them in the grass as you don't want them in the woods and pulling ticks off of them. This comment definitely stood out to me, especially as it also applies to copperheads and other things hiding underneath the shrubs and needles/leaves.

Another big takeaway I took is that yes, the side trail fence definitely should be moved. But if I think about my fence goals, at this moment, it's not to cause a large expensive project. Plus, since the tree line in that location is cut to the fence, moving the fence would now cause an open area (gap) between the treeline and the new fence location. This will only guarantee that I'll now have even more people walking on this side of the property, as they think the tree line and fence are now the trail location. This only guarantees that I have to fully enclose the rear of the property, all 300 feet of it. And at the end of the day, if I did nothing, no fence, and left it open, I'd be right where I started - with the property lines right where they are today, not really causing any issue.

So if I go back to a play area fence, I start to now think about possibly reducing the height. Originally, it was going to be a 5 foot tall black aluminum fence. But now, I'm considering reducing it to a 4 foot fall fence, and only doing the grass line (essentially, just the play area). Having a lower fence, may make it appear like it's literally only enclosing a play area as a picket-ish fence, and not actually determining a property line. If I were to make it a 5 or 6 foot tall fence, it might appear like a property line.

Then in the future, if something does become a "real" issue with people crossing the property line, I'll have the trail fence moved and I'll put a full height 6 foot fence along the full property line all the way around. It might be double the cost putting up two fences, but since I don't have a real problem now, there's no reason to chase a solution to a problem I don't have.

Thoughts? 4 foot fence for the grass line/play area only? Thanks everyone

 

[billconner]

Sounds very reasonable and happy you live in a pleasant and cordial area. I'm into split rail at the moment but I'm sure your choice is fine. I think I'd like a gate to access the woods - and retrieve the stray ball or whatever.

 

[Viper98912]

Gates - yes, a 4' wide gate on one of the front sides of the house, a 6' wide gate on the other front side, with a removable post that could make it a 12' wide opening in the event any large equipment ever needs to go in the back, and a 4' wide gate at the rear of the property to access the trail, wooded area, etc.

 

[ZRX61]

When you say wood, does that include fences that look like the first three, or does it have to be solid like the 4th image? If some clumsy dullard injures himself on unfenced part of your property & you built a fence inside your property line you would be liable.
Given the large size of the lots, I'd go with image 1... altho with different wire, probably horse wire.



Horse wire:

 

[Grant F]

4' I would say depends on what kind of dog you have and how well trained it is to respect fence boundaries. Many dogs can easily clear a 4' fence if they want / figure it out.

 

[Git]

I'd do a hybrid of the two options.

I'd run a nice wooden fence along the grassy part of the property with a gate to access the wooded part.

Then I'd run an open iron or chainlink fence along the actual property line. Few HOAs allow chainlink, so you might have to go with iron. You could also do a semi-open wooden picket fence just along the outer property line. Pretty much anything to denote it's private property.

I would do something similar but for the back part I would use something like a split rail or lodge pole fence. They look decent, pretty easy to install and not that expensive. Also it would clearly indicate that it is private property