Need guidance with bad concrete pour

[ViperJon]

Hi guys
I am so upset with recent events that I'm bordering on rage, but need some advice on my garage floor pour that went in yesterday.
I am on Long Island and recently constructed a new 750 sq foot detached garage. The mason contractor we hired did the footings and the foundation walls without event. Yesterday was the time for the floor pour.
Now the weather has been cold so I have gone to great lengths to keep the garage as warm as possible. I have the garage overhead doors covered with tarps for some time now and kept space heaters going for days. The point is the ground was not frozen.
On wednesday the floor was leveled and prepared with RCA, vapor barrier and rebar. Obviously the ground was fine or they would not have been able to level and prepare.
Forward to yesterday and we start the pour. I don't know the first thing about concrete but all looked well. After the floor was poured I noticed the workers were just standing around outside for at least an hour or more. I assumed they were waiting for it to set up to work it. After at least 90 minutes they went it. One went to work with the trowel on the edges and the other went to the power trowel. He was working it back and forth for a long time. Then they would come out and stand around some more and back to work. The entire time a kerosene torpedo heater was on so it was quite warm in there.
This went on well into the night. They ere still here at 10:00 pm last night and the initial pour was done at 11:00 am. I knew something was wrong.
So they finally leave and we turn the heater on and it runs off and on all night keeping iit at least 60 degrees or more.
This morning I go out and the floor is soaking wet with bleed water. I would say at least 50% of the floor. As today progressed we notice that some areas were drying and some not so much. Then the bad part.
The dried areas are hollow. Tapping on them you can easily hear it is not solid and not bonded to the underlying slab. This is is several spots some as big as two foot square.

I fear the slab has been compromised and I am in trouble. Its new years eve so I couldnt contact the mason but I need to be armed with information. I know this involves guesswork but after researching I think we are in big trouble with this slab. By the way it's 6" or more.

Help me arm myself with info for the inevitable confrontation next week.

Thanks all.

 

[Jackfre]

Slabs are not someting you just throw in. It is common to have to wait and trowel and then power trowel a slab and if, do to temps it takes longer, then they were reading the slab/pour (my fingers are crossed along with yours). It hasn't been to cold the last few nights up here. If you have heat in there you should be okay.

While I can understand your apprehension, I would suggest that you keep the heat on the slab, and give it the few days to cure a bit more and see what the guy has to offer on Monday. Nothing can or will be done in the next few days other than what you are doing now.

 

[ViperJon]

Thank you.
What concerns me the most is that the slab has barely cured, it is as green/grey as when it was poured. The garage has been kept above 60 degrees and completely enclosed. Plus it is riddled with hollow spots. The worker used
that power trowel for hours going back and forth over the same spots to the point I was wondering why. My theory is by using the power trowel for that long he brought the cream up and that has hardened but not bonded to the slab. If so what is my recourse now?

 

[bluesman2a]

As I read this, I found myself getting pissed off FOR you. The exact same thing happened to me. I can tell you what happened...

When the concrete leaves the factory it is mixed for a particular strength and "slump" this measures how viscous the mix is. A common mix for garages is 3500PSI with a 6" slump. The concrete vendor (i.e. the name on the side of the truck should have a certificate of what the truck left the yard with, get a copy of that now, you may need it later).

Depending on your contractor and/or the driver, water is added to the mix. Some drivers will do this to keep their load viable longer (getting stuck in traffic, second job, etc.), some contractors will order a mix soupy, other times the guys placing it will have the driver add water to make it easier on them.

Long story short: somebody f-ed up your concrete. It was either the factory, the driver, or your contractor. Did you see any of them adding water at any point?

On mine it was the same story. The pour was done in the morning, and they left at 11:00PM at night, still not dry. Come the next morning, the finish was HORRIBLE. Their next trick was to send somebody out with a bag of portland cement to put a skimcoat on it. It looked great, but spalled not even 12 hours later.

If you look at my Skunkworks build, you'll see all the concrete problems I had. For comparison, here's what mine looked like 2 hours after the pour:

You can see where the water bled up through the concrete. The second picture had 2" of standing water on top of the mix.

Here they are working by headlights:

This is the spalling I mentioned earlier. It looked GREAT until I noticed the hairline cracks and peeled it back with my fingernail.

So where do you go from here? Chances are better than not it's gonna have to come out.

1) DO NOT PAY ANYBODY UNTIL THIS IS RESOLVED TO YOUR SATISFACTION!!!! Depending on your local laws, you may need to put payment into an escrow account so they don't lein your property. The escrow is not to be paid until you are satisfied the job is done correctly.

2) Get a local/second opinion on it by a pro/inspector who is not involved in the situation.

3) If the installer won't pay and hammer it out, then go back to the concrete vendor and pull them in as well.

4) If the finish ***** now, it will never get better, don't let them fool you. The longer you wait, the harder it will be to get out. If you suspect hollow spots, go out there and break into them.

5) It will NOT be easy coming out. Whatever they tear up taking it out, they should also pay to have put right when they are done.

6) Most of these guys know what a bad job looks like and they'll cave once you come back at them. Worst case scenario, tell them you want an engineering/core sample test done. If the engineers pass it, then you're good. The down-side is some of those tests require a 7-21+ day wait before they conclusively prove what you already know.

Best of luck with this and please let us know how it's going.

 

[ViperJon]

Thank you.
That was an extremely depressing read.
I am afraid you are exactly correct and that is brutal to contemplate.
We waited all summer for the appropriate permits to build and it has taken much longer than planned. I am storing two sports cars at considerable expense and they were to be moved back in next weekend. Now this.
Whatever needs to be done is going to have to wait till spring as I HAVE to move the cars back in on this floor. The contractor is still owed $3000.00 so I wonder if he will walk away. This is going to get ugly. I tell you I am steaming.

 

[ViperJon]

This is 48 hours after pour.
Some pics of obvious spalling in certain areas:

Around outside walls where it was hand troweled looks fine and is solid:

 

[David79z28]

WOW!!! What a POOR job.. Probably a good thing you held out $$$.

I have been going thru issues with my shop for 12 months. Only the concrete was the only good part of mine.

Good luck!!

 

[BL50]

This is really a shame ... I feel for you. It's also a good lesson to everyone to do exhaustive research before picking a cement contractor including references and viewing previously completed work. I paid almost $12,000 for the foundation and cement work for my new 1000 sq, ft. garage and driveway two years ago and it looks as good as the day it was poured because I found a great company to work with. Don't pay your guy a dime until it's removed and repoured to your satisfation.

 

[marrt]

I had exactly the same thing happen to me. Concrete pours in cold weather aren't the greatest. My guys poured in the morning and worked until 4am next day. They even came back around 8 am the next day and worked it some more. Three years later, I've had no problems although the final finish isn't nearly as smooth as I wanted. However, I have a 7 inch 6000 psi fiber reinforced pour. It has wire AND lots of rebar (put that in myself). So, I have lots of "wiggle room" in that it's overbuilt.

One thing to consider now: Have (another) contractor come in a pour a 2" high strength top coat over what you have. Basically, you use the current pour as the "foundation" for the final top coat. This can work well but you have to make some accommodation for the garage and entry doors.

 

[ViperJon]

I am absolutely convinced the cold weather had nothing whatsoever to do with this pour. Again, the ground was not frozen and inside the garage was 75 degrees. Outside temps were low 40's. We have decided to get a consult from an concrete engineer and have him take a look as well as possibly a core sample. Nothing is being done till I am assured that the base is solid. Then I will deal with how to resurface it. One thing is for sure, the mason will not get a dime till I am satisfied. I will do next to anything to avoid having to rip this out I can not concievably see how that can be done without damaging the poured walls etc.

 

[bluesman2a]

Yeah, that really brings the ****... I wouldn't plan on waiting though. Concrete cures at a geometric rate. By spring it will have achieved over 90% of it's ultimate strength. Also your contractor probably isn't gonna be as willing to work that far out as he will be now. You really should strike while the iron is hot so to speak.

Also if you had any plans of mounting a 2-post lift in that floor, I wouldn't do anything until the concrete is remediated satisfactorily.

As for cold weather pours, I can't speak for extreme climates as Atlanta rarely sees wide swings like you will, but I can tell you there are methods/products for pouring in just about any weather. I gar-ron-tee you they don't shut down big work sites just because of weather, they find ways to work around it. You just need to find somebody who knows how to do the same (effectively).

 

[bluesman2a]

I will do next to anything to avoid having to rip this out I can not concievably see how that can be done without damaging the poured walls etc.

I think you are doing yourself a big dis-service here. If that's the right answer you need to go with it.

I would consult your concrete engineer when you have him in to do the test. If there is something wrong here, you should specifically ask that he write up a plan to properly remediate the floor without damaging the rest.

Personally I would look at a saw-cut around the perimeter as close as you can get to the walls. Jack hammer the center out, staying away from the saw cuts. Then drill back into the walls, epoxy rebar dowels into the walls to tie the floor in and repour. It's a PITA and it'll be expensive, but I think it would work for many cases.

This whole thing reminds me what one of the concrete guys told me during my ordeal: "The first rule of concrete is that if it ain't right coming outta the truck you gotta STOP cause it's only gonna get more expensive."

You can bet when they came back to repour mine, that I watched them like a hawk and there wasn't a DROP of water that went into that mix.

 

[Fastback]

I wonder if that torpedo heater spewed out any raw kerosene or diesel fuel on top of the slab over night?

 

[ViperJon]

It's a fairly big floor over 700 sq feet seems unlikely to have spewed unburned fuel over the whole thing.

If the only real problem is the surface is it feasible to have that grinded off and treated somehow? Polished or some sort of sealer?

 

[Fastback]

It's a fairly big floor over 700 sq feet seems unlikely to have spewed unburned fuel over the whole thing.

If it heated it then it reached it and it could have been an issue. I have heard of that happening before. I thought I read it on here also?

Anyway, a rich burning salamander can coat the floor with oil....I would not use one in that application, maybe a radiant type of heater that burns oils but not one that relies on forced air, just think about what happens when it runs out of fuel one time and belches.


ViperJon, did you have to refill that heater during the over night hours and did it run out before you refueled?

 

[jay50]

Have you talked with the contractor that permitted this ****** work to take place, or is he hiding from you and won't return phone calls?

 

[ViperJon]

We filled the heater before the contractor left that night, set it on relatively low and didn't have to refill it. It never ran out that night and we always maintained it so it never ran out. It has been on since then (thermostat on and off), there is no fuel or oily residue whatsoever on the floor.

Spoke to contractor once, he basically said he has to look at it and will come by Monday or Tuesday. The important thing is he has not been paid a dime toward the floor. We broke the payment down into three segments footing, foundation walls and floor. He has only received two of the the three I totally have the upper hand in that regard.

 

[jay50]

We filled the heater before the contractor left that night, set it on relatively low and didn't have to refill it. It never ran out that night and we always maintained it so it never ran out. It has been on since then (thermostat on and off), there is no fuel or oily residue whatsoever on the floor.

Spoke to contractor once, he basically said he has to look at it and will come by Monday or Tuesday. The important thing is he has not been paid a dime toward the floor. We broke the payment down into three segments footing, foundation walls and floor. He has only received two of the the three I totally have the upper hand in that regard.

Good on the payment plan, you got him by the balls....usually its the other way around and the contractor just wallks away......bastards.

 

[GTViper]

Small small world. Mine was poured recently and the temps dropped to 20 degrees and sure enough I had pocking identical to your pics. I got really upset and laid into my contractor. Finally my wife said "let it go and just work with the guy to get it right."

I am a lawyer and could lean on my guy but he has done a zillion garages and we just had bad luck. (ok maybe he could have done more). I was going to put down epoxy coat anyway so now he is going to fix the bad spots and do the epoxy for free. I am also going to get him to warrantee the concrete for 2 years.

Bottom line--it will drive you nuts if you let it like I did. Stuff happens. By the way do you have a Viper? When my garage is done I have 2 Vipers and 2 Ford GTs ready to move in.

Good luck

 

[dimwolf]

I feel your pain....was in this same thing only 5 months ago. Google concrete delamination and there is lots of information on this condition. Some of the hollow spots I had I was able to dig all the way through with my hands. Long story short I finally got them to remove some of the loose stuff and then they drilled through the concrete ever 2 feet and installed rebar, tied it the wire and repoured a 3 1/2" cap. Guess time will tell if this works like I said its only 5 months old

 

[ViperJon]

Thanks for the replies guys.

So it's Sunday and will be 72 hours down. Another day near 50 degrees so I'm out of the woods as far as the pour freezing. Except for the scaling and spalling here and there it looks solid so the question is how to deal with that.

My intention was to have the floor ground and polished in the spring/summer after it fully cures. I know the contractor is going to say that since the intention was to do that, the grinding will remove the top scaling and we are good to go. I will probably counter with "yeah, but I wasn't going to polish for a year or more and I am NOT looking at that mess for a year it's an embarrassment to me". I will see what he counters with.

If he agrees to pay for the grind and polish, should that solve the spalling issue? This is all assuming the slab is solid which will be revealed by the core sample I intend to get.

OT To GTviper: Yes I own two Vipers. I have a 97 blue and white GTS and a brand new Viper ACR which was one reason for the new garage build. I have been storing them since mid October when the project started, the old garage was demo'd way back then. We have been waiting for a break in the unusually cold weather and last weekend was it. I firmly believe the cold had nothing to do with this as the garage was warm, the ground was not frozen and kept heated andnthe temp inside the garage never was below 60 degrees. I'm just not buying the cold weather excuse.

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

Thanks for the replies guys.

So it's Sunday and will be 72 hours down. Another day near 50 degrees so I'm out of the woods as far as the pour freezing. Except for the scaling and spalling here and there it looks solid so the question is how to deal with that.

My intention was to have the floor ground and polished in the spring/summer after it fully cures. I know the contractor is going to say that since the intention was to do that, the grinding will remove the top scaling and we are good to go. I will probably counter with "yeah, but I wasn't going to polish for a year or more and I am NOT looking at that mess for a year it's an embarrassment to me". I will see what he counters with.

If he agrees to pay for the grind and polish, should that solve the spalling issue? This is all assuming the slab is solid which will be revealed by the core sample I intend to get.

OT To GTviper: Yes I own two Vipers. I have a 97 blue and white GTS and a brand new Viper ACR which was one reason for the new garage build. I have been storing them since mid October when the project started, the old garage was demo'd way back then. We have been waiting for a break in the unusually cold weather and last weekend was it. I firmly believe the cold had nothing to do with this as the garage was warm, the ground was not frozen and kept heated andnthe temp inside the garage never was below 60 degrees. I'm just not buying the cold weather excuse.

Bring a polishing expert in to evaluate the slab prior to negotiating with the mason. The price is dependent on how long they have to run the grinder and how many heads they will have to change.

 

[ViperJon]

Bring a polishing expert in to evaluate the slab prior to negotiating with the mason. The price is dependent on how long they have to run the grinder and how many heads they will have to change.

Thank you.
Scotty do you know of a reputable polishing expert on Long Island who can come out to Huntington and give me a quote? That would be a great help I am not keen on using my masons "expert"

 

[GTViper]

Thanks for the replies guys.

.

OT To GTviper: Yes I own two Vipers. I have a 97 blue and white GTS and a brand new Viper ACR which was one reason for the new garage build. I have been storing them since mid October when the project started, the old garage was demo'd way back then. We have been waiting for a break in the unusually cold weather and last weekend was it. I firmly believe the cold had nothing to do with this as the garage was warm, the ground was not frozen and kept heated andnthe temp inside the garage never was below 60 degrees. I'm just not buying the cold weather excuse.

Here are mine awaiting the build finish . Not pictured is my 2010 Final Edition Viper.

 

[ViperJon]

As a followup-
A representative from the transit company came by to look at the floor. He was very nice and totally non committal about anything, just listened to my description of the pour and the masons work. He agreed the floor was unacceptable but said little else. He agreed to come by with the mason on Wednesday. No one showed up. The mason has not contacted us in any way. He still has some equipment here, nothing major but two large insulated blankets we had used.

What I believe is going on is they are blaming each other. The mason had to wait hours to even begin working the floor, and then he spent 8 hours OVERworking it. Probably pointing fingers at each other about who is going to admit fault.

I had the garage overhead doors put in yesterday, and I am moving my cars in this Sunday so whatever the outcome nothing is being done till spring and no one is getting paid. At that time I will weigh my options. Maybe grind and polish, maybe race deck. I have been storing my cars since mid October and they are going in on this floor no matter what.

 

[mikeyr]

I think that is a mistake to wait just to get your cars in. I did the same thing although mine was construction of the garage and not the pour since that went fine. After I had stuff in the garage it made everything harder to resolve, I would get it fixed NOW and wait to put the cars in. It will be easier to fix now then in 6 months if they decide to remove the concrete. With the proper crew, they should be able to rip that out and repour in a week, so only a 2 week delay to get your cars in (giving time for the slab to dry).

In your original post you mentioned some areas that sounded hollow, I am not sure how that can happen but if it and there are thin spots in the concrete, do you really want to cover that up with Racedeck ? I would not, I would get it fixed and then cover the beautiful and perfect floor.

 

[ViperJon]

I understand your point but if they have to remove the concrete, that's his problem. It's 25 degrees here now what kind of decent pour am I going to get in January? The ground is frozen and there is no relief in sight. At least in two months it will be warmer and it doesn't change the facts about what has to be done. I was planning on sheetrocking and finishing the inside but that is all on hold now, I'm just insulating. Since no one has been payed it's really up to me how I want to handle it. To be honest, I think for the 3K owed him the mason is going to walk away.

 

[Az Scooter]

Dont you have a licensing agency for the contractor? Isn't he bonded? I would register a complaint, and go after his bond. At least that way you will not have to pay more for what you already paid for.

 

[dondarnell]

Dont you have a licensing agency for the contractor? Isn't he bonded? I would register a complaint, and go after his bond. At least that way you will not have to pay more for what you already paid for.

Only public jobs are bonded.

 

[dondarnell]

I have been litigating concrete for 10 years. That is the worst work I have ever seen. Look up "retempering" concrete. This is what happened to your job. That and you and the contractor broke the golden rule of concrete work. Never Ever pour flatwork in sub freezing weather. I don't care if the building was heated. The ground was still too cold. Force the contractor to chip it out, blow it out, pin it, and re-pour it.

 

[Kevin54]

I see in your last posting that you were insulating. It sounds to me like the pour MAY have went bad due to a high humidity problem. Just guessing, but you had a vapor barrier down, so now water is trapped. You didn't have insulation, it was cool outside, but it was up to 60+ inside, creating humidity. Again just a theory, but usually when a pour is done in warm weather the doors are open letting excess moisture escape, or in the case of something like a large pole building, you have more air moving. It sounds like you kind of made a terrarium when the pour was done, then on top of that everytime they tried to work the concrete the water and cream would come to the top, hence them standing around a few times. Every time they went to work it again the same thing happened. The reason the corners looked fine was due to the fact that they wouldn't be worked as much as where the power trowel was. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the guys that poured it, but it sounds to me like it should have been mixed different at the plant had they known exactly what the conditions were going to be. They could have used less water, maybe a little more calcium to speed up drying time, etc. Again, just guessing here I hope you get it worked out

 

[ViperJon]

I have been litigating concrete for 10 years. That is the worst work I have ever seen. Look up "retempering" concrete. This is what happened to your job. That and you and the contractor broke the golden rule of concrete work. Never Ever pour flatwork in sub freezing weather. I don't care if the building was heated. The ground was still too cold. Force the contractor to chip it out, blow it out, pin it, and re-pour it.

Once again, it ws NOT sub freezing it was low 40's and the garage was enclosed and heated for days before. The ground was not frozen it had been prepped the day before. It had not dipped below freezing that night. Concrete can be poured in cold weather with the right prep which obviously was not done in my case but I'm not buying cold as a factor whatsoever.

 

[Az Scooter]

Only public jobs are bonded.

Not in my state. If they are, I am required to carry a bond for no reason.

 

[GTViper]

Not in my state. If they are, I am required to carry a bond for no reason.

Agree. I have lost track of how much bad advice and incorrect info there is on this thread.

 

[darkk]

My 900 sf summer pour, I floated with water for 7 days. Kept it absolutely soaked. It is 1 1/2 years now and perfect. My 7.5X27 pour was done in mid December. Between 0 to 10 deg. Just kept it covered with the 6 mil plastic and thermal blankets for 7 days to keep from freezing and keep the snow off. That's a year old now and still perfect also. The Contractor just did a **** job...

 

[Waterholewilly]

It could be one of to thing. clumps in the concrete mix that did not get broken up when it was mixing it happens when they are batching to fast in a dry batch plant.we call them footballs Do you know if your local plant dry batches or wet batches the concrete.

Did the contractor use any ad mix like a super plaster sizer or calcium chloride in the mix. The batch ticket will tell you that. Super plaster sizer is mostly used on commercial job sites to allow you to pour at a higher slump with out affecting strength. If you dont get it mixed in good enough it acts like a retardant and it looks like that. Calcium chloride, daraset,polarset there are more brand names act to accelerate the chemical reaction in the concrete. They should at least have been pouring with hot water.

Are any of those spots next to a door or a place where a draft could of froze the top.

I would take a log chain and drag it all over the floor if there is a bond break or a hollow spot you will hear a different sound

 

[Kevin54]

It could be one of to thing. clumps in the concrete mix that did not get broken up when it was mixing it happens when they are batching to fast in a dry batch plant.we call them footballs Do you know if your local plant dry batches or wet batches the concrete.

Did the contractor use any ad mix like a super plaster sizer or calcium chloride in the mix. The batch ticket will tell you that. Super plaster sizer is mostly used on commercial job sites to allow you to pour at a higher slump with out affecting strength. If you dont get it mixed in good enough it acts like a retardant and it looks like that. Calcium chloride, daraset,polarset there are more brand names act to accelerate the chemical reaction in the concrete. They should at least have been pouring with hot water.

Are any of those spots next to a door or a place where a draft could of froze the top.

I would take a log chain and drag it all over the floor if there is a bond break or a hollow spot you will hear a different sound

A spud bar is good for that too. Thump the floor everywhere and you will find every hollow spot.

 

[WTM Enterprises]

interesting read from all ,, from what i read and seen in the pics there are many issues.

Here in Canada there is an extra componate added to the concrete from Oct till April to help with the curing of the concrete in cold weather.. not sure if that is the case in the US.
from what i seen in the pics is that there was to much water added and over worked ( which means that to much of the cream brought up ) and the hollow spots sounds and looks like foot printes that didn't get filled in all the way...and about the forced air heatet you may not notice but the vapour from the gases forced out will coat the concrete and bleed into it, you will not notice this untill you go and put a coating over top of the slab you have right now ( if it hasnt been repoured that is) which will cause problems with the coating that is trying to bond with the concrete

Also to add " nothing against pouring over the slab" but from what i have seen and fixed
over the years, i have found that a 2-3 inch top coat doesn't bond with slab UNLESS there is a good primer coat used ie; a bonding agent


Hopefully things worked out for the best with getting the floor fixed

 

[ViperJon]

Well today is the two week anniversary of the floor pour.
The mason contractor has not contacted us since the day after the pour, he has obviously decided to walk away from it. I'm okay with that I have his 3K to play with as well as what was budgeted to finish it originally. Basically I got a free floor, albeit defective.

We have had two separate mason contractors in as well as a concrete engineer. The slab itself is sound and well built, it is just the top which will have to be removed and finished. Already had some guys take a look at it and got some prices on grind and polished. Very expensive. $6.00-9.00 sq foot x 700 sq feet. Ouch. I wouldn't spend that much if the floor was perfect just too much for a garage.

I was originally going to go either polished concrete or race deck. After using it for a week while working on my cars I have found the concrete very cold and uncomfortable. In my old garage I had some cheap home depot carpeting under the cars ugly but effective as a barrier. This makes me lean towards race deck if for no other reason than the "warmer" floor and more comfortable condition when on the knees.

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

Viper:
I hope this does not happen to you. However, you should be prepared for a walk through your local small claims court.

He (the contractor) will have ample proof of substantial work completed.
Even if it does not go beyond mediation, you will owe him at least HALF.

Again hopefully this will not happen to you.
Keep half the dough, just in case.