Need help - electrical question with hurricane bearing down tonight....

[Doug427]

Do we have any home electric wizards in here? Here’s the (relatively) short version of a longer story. We’re about to be hit with the dirty side of a hurricane. Not a direct hit, thankfully, but enough that given the terrible electrical infrastructure here, we’re almost guaranteed to lose power for a while. I need to get my portable generator set to hook up to the house. I’ve had this on my list of things to do, and you know how that goes - I never got to it and I’m out of time.

I have a NEMA 10-50 three blade outlet in my garage for an old welder. It’s a three blade outlet with a neutral (white) and red and black hot leads. My generator has a NEMA 14-30 three blade output, with two hits a neutral and a ground. The generator does not have a GFCI on it.

I’m in the process of making a double male ended cord to connect the generator output to the 10-50 three blade outlet in the garage. YES, I KNOW this isn’t the preferred method. Yes, I know all about the dangers of back feeding the grid. I will absolutely, positively turn off the main breaker into the house, thereby isolating the house from the grid, and I have installed an interlock as well. The main breaker will be the first thing to be turned off when doing this, as well as all the house breakers, and the main breakers will be the LAST thing turned on after the generator is shut down and disconnected so there is no chance of back feeding the grid. I am acutely aware of all that.

All that said my concern is the wiring and specifically the grounding. Am I correct that lining up via the wiring the individual hot leads from the 30 amp outlet on the gen to the individual hot leads on the 3 blade 50 amp outlet in the garage, the neutral from the 30 amp outlet on the gen to the neutral on the 50 amp 3 blade outlet in the garage will work correctly? Assuming that is correct, what do I do about the ground? The 30 amp outlet on the gen has a 4th blade with a ground, the 3 blade in the garage has no ground. If what I read on the internet is correct, which we can never count on, the neutral on the 3 blade outlet in the garage acts as a ground? Is that correct? Looking into the box containing the 3 blade outlet in the garage, there is a unused bare ground wire in the box. The box is plastic mounted to a wooden stud in the wall. Can that somehow be used as a ground if that’s necessary?

I’m pressed for time here, so I need to get something done. I know this isn’t the ideal solution, but it’s just a way to get the house some temporary power to get the fridges, etc up and running while we are almost surely out of power for days.

 

[PCustoms]

I stopped at "double male ended cord"...

Don't. You should have planned better ahead of time, and if you have to ask questions you probably don't have any business playing around with a suicide cord and non interlocked main breakers.



Whatever you proceed with, MAKE SURE the main is off and ideally locked out somehow

 

[Doug427]

Had you not stopped at the mention of a double ended cord, you would have read that there is indeed a dedicated interlock already installed. I understand that some don't approve of this method, however it is very commonly done. If anyone has some constructive advice that would actually help in getting this done, I would appreciate it. For those of you who don't approve of this method, your objection is noted.

 

[mike93lx]

You need to replace the wire to get a ground and a neutral. The best you can do with the 3 wire feed is 120v.

If you are replacing the feed, install the proper inlet

 

[PCustoms]

Had you not stopped at the mention of a double ended cord, you would have read that there is indeed a dedicated interlock already installed. I understand that some don't approve of this method, however it is very commonly done. If anyone has some constructive advice that would actually help in getting this done, I would appreciate it. For those of you who don't approve of this method, your objection is noted.

There's an awful lot to read there for something that should be fairly simple. After changing things around, put in a proper generator inlet

 

[TractorJeff]

Generator have a Ground lug on it somewhere? If it was me I would take the unused Ground wire inside the box and tie that to the Generator.
Good Luck getting through the Hurricane!

 

[Criss]

I have done something similar after a tornado. It worked, I was able to keep the refrigerators, freezer and well powered. I had a 4 prong outlet and extra 30 amp breaker that I added to the panel. I would suggest you do the same so you have a ground and the added convenience of powering your house on and off right at the box.

Run extension cords from the generator to the appliances you want to power?

Alternatively, since your in a pinch, you could temporarily move the white neutral to ground in the box. This would give you red, black, white as ground. This will get current flowing back through your panel.
disclamer: Not going into the do, don'ts, code violations, and all other safety sam bs. There's risks, but, the keyboard types will be at home in A/C while your food spoils. Sometimes you gotta do what ya gotta do. Good luck stay safe

 

[Doug427]

There's an awful lot to read there for something that should be fairly simple. After changing things around, put in a proper generator inlet

The plan is absolutely to get it done correctly. In the mean time I can use some assistance to get it working sometime today on just a temp basis. Hopefully one of you guys has some info to help get that done. The basic version of the main question is will this: The three blade 50 amp welder outlet in the garage has no ground terminal on the outlet. In reading about that, the info on the internet seems to suggest that the neutral on this type outlet acts as a ground. If that's the case, will the two hot legs and the neutral from the 10L-30 without the ground connected be grounded through the neutral on the three blade 50 amp outlet that it's going to be connected to?
I know this gets confusing to follow. To reiterate, the jumper cable is a 4 conductor 10 gauge 30 amp cable. The male generator end of the jumper cable will have a 10L-30 plug. That plug will have a pair of hot leads, red and black. The white neutral will be on the neutral terminal of the plug, with the green connected to the ground terminal of the plug. All super easy and straight forward. The issue comes at the other end.
The other end of that cable will connect to an existing 50 amp three blade outlet that I use to power an older welder. If it matters it's a 10-50 plug, two angled hot blades with a vertical neutral blade up top. There is no ground lead on this outlet. That's the way its designed. Placing the 10-50A male end plug on the other end of this jumper cable, there is no terminal available on the plug for the ground conductor in the cable. In other words the green conductor in the jumper cable will have noting to connect to at the garage outlet end, there are only three terminals on the plug (as designed) - two hot leads and a neutral.
The base question here is, will this setup as described ground through the neutral? This is only a temp setup, I'll be having this all redone properly after the hurricane. I only need to get through these next few days. In understand the concern about it not being 100% proper. It's not a permanent solution.

 

[PCustoms]

The plan is absolutely to get it done correctly. In the mean time I can use some assistance to get it working sometime today on just a temp basis. Hopefully one of you guys has some info to help get that done. The basic version of the main question is will this: The three blade 50 amp welder outlet in the garage has no ground terminal on the outlet. In reading about that, the info on the internet seems to suggest that the neutral on this type outlet acts as a ground. If that's the case, will the two hot legs and the neutral from the 10L-30 without the ground connected be grounded through the neutral on the three blade 50 amp outlet that it's going to be connected to?
I know this gets confusing to follow. To reiterate, the jumper cable is a 4 conductor 10 gauge 30 amp cable. The male generator end of the jumper cable will have a 10L-30 plug. That plug will have a pair of hot leads, red and black. The white neutral will be on the neutral terminal of the plug, with the green connected to the ground terminal of the plug. All super easy and straight forward. The issue comes at the other end.
The other end of that cable will connect to an existing 50 amp three blade outlet that I use to power an older welder. If it matters it's a 10-50 plug, two angled hot blades with a vertical neutral blade up top. There is no ground lead on this outlet. That's the way its designed. Placing the 10-50A male end plug on the other end of this jumper cable, there is no terminal available on the plug for the ground conductor in the cable. In other words the green conductor in the jumper cable will have noting to connect to at the garage outlet end, there are only three terminals on the plug (as designed) - two hot leads and a neutral.
The base question here is, will this setup as described ground through the neutral? This is only a temp setup, I'll be having this all redone properly after the hurricane. I only need to get through these next few days. In understand the concern about it not being 100% proper. It's not a permanent solution.

Again way too much text...


If I had hot, hot, neutral and needed a ground I would do it someone else suggested and run that back to the ground in the panel or perhaps tied in at the outside ground rod depending on where everything is.

Again this is a really really temporary setup, and I take no responsibility for ownership for your safety or if there's any damage equipment.

What are you trying to power up? Can you set it up and just wire that equipment direct to the generator?

Hopefully you don't lose power ...

 

[Norcal]

A suicide cord is never part of a solution.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Oh boy….

The 10-50 is completely WRONG… you need an inlet with 4-wires…. Suicide cord just adds the cherry on top

Go buy an inlet and the proper cord or make your own. Hopefully the wire going to the 10-50 is 4-wire

 

[mike93lx]

Wiring a cord directly into a breaker with a male end for the generator would be better than all this ****

 

[niget2002]

Pull the 10-50 and see if there's a ground ran to the box, but not going to anything. If so, jumper the two wires somehow.

It'd be sketchy as all get out.

 

[RPH]

Wiring a cord directly into a breaker with a male end for the generator would be better than all this ****

In this old farm house with a 240 vac @ 60 amps, I just pull the cartridge main fuses and wire to the circuit box in the brooder shed. That feeds into the house. Cartridge fuses only go back in when I see lights at the houses. It doesn’t take much to run the house here in the countryside.

 

[bobg03]

No prudent advice for power, but my best wishes for no issues and your families safety during the storm.

After Hurricane Matthew in 2016 in SC I had a whole house genset installed being w/o power for over 12 days sucked.

 

[Doug427]

Sometimes a better and easier solution is in front of you and you don't see it. I replaced the 10-50 outlet in the wall with a 14-50R outlet. The cable that I'll be using is a 4 conductor 10 gauge. The 14-50 R has a provision for ground. There's an unused ground wire in the outlet box. I checked continuity and it is in fact grounded in the panel. So I will have 4 wires with ground coming out of the generator. I just purchased a power inlet box with a male L14-30 prong in it, and on the end of the cable coming out of the generator into the inlet box will be a female L14-30 end. Hopefully that eases the concern about a "suicide" cable. That box will be mounted on the outside wall. A 10 gauge 4 wire cable is hard wired to the power inlet box and will go through the wall with conduit to where the garage outlet is. That will have the above mentioned 14-50R outlet in it. The cable from the power inlet box will have a corresponding 14-50 plug on it. I'll change the plug on the welder to match the 14-50 outlet. This will give me 2 hots, a neutral and a ground from the outlet in the gen all the way to the panel, and the "jumper" cable will have a male and a female end on it. Again, not a perfect solution but does that sound better to you guys?

 

[larry4406]

Not sure if mentioned but need to remove the generator’s internal neutral/ground bond.

N&G only bonded at your panel.

 

[Doug427]

Oh boy….

The 10-50 is completely WRONG… you need an inlet with 4-wires…. Suicide cord just adds the cherry on top

Go buy an inlet and the proper cord or make your own. Hopefully the wire going to the 10-50 is 4-wire

Done - see above! Thanks for your advice. I got done doing what you just said, came in from doing it and found what you had written. This gives me optimism that what I've done as described above will work better. The best thing that can happen now is we don't lose power, I don't need to use it, and I'll have time to devise a more elegant solution. I really do appreciate your and others input here. Hopefully what I wrote just above this post seems to be something that you more experienced electrical guys think will work properly for now. Winds picking up now and it's raining like crazy outside. Power is still on, fingers crossed.

 

[PCustoms]

Delete.

Didn't read the wall of text completely again

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Ok so you have an inlet with a 10/3 NM-b connected to it that jumpers to a 14-50r in your garage? Does this 14-50r connect to the breaker with the interlock?

BTW NM-b is not meant to be cordage aka laying on the ground. If you didnt use NM-b and instead used cordage, well code doesnt permit using cordage in place of permanent building wiring

 

[Doug427]

Not sure if mentioned but need to remove the generator’s internal neutral/ground bond.

N&G only bonded at your panel.

I need to find where it's bonded at the gen. The owners manual is no help at all.....
System Ground
The generator has a system ground that connects the
generator frame components to the ground terminals on the
AC output receptacles. The system ground is connected to the
AC neutral wire (the neutral is bonded to the generator frame).

What's the downside if I can't locate the bonded point to separate them at the gen?

 

[Doug427]

Delete.

Didn't read the wall of text completely again

8 1/2 lines is a "wall of text"? Hmmm

 

[larry4406]

I need to find where it's bonded at the gen. The owners manual is no help at all.....
System Ground
The generator has a system ground that connects the
generator frame components to the ground terminals on the
AC output receptacles. The system ground is connected to the
AC neutral wire (the neutral is bonded to the generator frame).

What's the downside if I can't locate the bonded point to separate them at the gen?

Check the wiring schematic for the generator. You will find it. On mine there was a normal 120V 20A receptacle that had a jumper between N&G. Jumper was purple as I recall.

I removed the jumper and installed a switch. This lets me bond it when the generator is standalone or unbond when connected to house.

Not sure on the dire consequences or likely hood of same. I will let others answer that. I know I used mine with the generator bonded and house bonded several times till this forum educated me. I’m alive and nothing burned down or injured anyone but I will chalk that up to luck.

 

[Doug427]

Ok so you have an inlet with a 10/3 NM-b connected to it that jumpers to a 14-50r in your garage? Does this 14-50r connect to the breaker with the interlock?

BTW NM-b is not meant to be cordage aka laying on the ground. If you didnt use NM-b and instead used cordage, well code doesnt permit using cordage in place of permanent building wiring

Yes, the inlet box connects to the 14-50r inside the garage. That 14-50r is hardwired in the wall to the breaker that has the main/secondary breaker interlock on it. The cable from the inlet box passes through the wall and terminates inside with a 14-50 plug end. That will be plugged in only when the gen is in use. Based on the rate we've needed a gen since we moved here will be about 3-4 days per 10 years. basically almost never.

 

[Doug427]

Check the wiring schematic for the generator. You will find it. On mine there was a normal 120V 20A receptacle that had a jumper between N&G. Jumper was purple as I recall.

I removed the jumper and installed a switch. This lets me bond it when the generator is standalone or unbond when connected to house.

Not sure on the dire consequences or likely hood of same. I will let others answer that. I know I used mine with the generator bonded and house bonded several times till this forum educated me. I’m alive and nothing burned down or injured anyone but I will chalk that up to luck.

As luck would have it, there is no schematic in the generator ops manual.

 

[Doug427]

Wiring a cord directly into a breaker with a male end for the generator would be better than all this ****

That would be great if the panel were located even remotely close to where I have a spot to put the gen. I agree 100% that if possible that would be a far better solution.

 

[larry4406]

As luck would have it, there is no schematic in the generator ops manual.

Google your make and model generator. Schematic should be available.

The metal panel on mine was easy to remove which holds the outlets. Jumper plan as day. I had a schematic though.

 

[PCustoms]

8 1/2 lines is a "wall of text"? Hmmm

This is how that post looks on a phone:

 

[larry4406]

This is how that post looks on a phone:

Wall of text. I like that description. I too often just skip threads like that.

We need a paragraph emoji.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

This is how that post looks on a phone:

Yup i was reading it on my phone and it was difficult. Had to stop several times and backup. Need more paragraphs… wall of text was a good description

 

[Doug427]

Sorry guys, I'm on a computer. Looks perfectly normal from here.

 

[PCustoms]

Sorry guys, I'm on a computer. Looks perfectly normal from here.

Try putting a blank line/space between paragraphs.

A paragraph should be used when you shift thoughts, and should be about 4-5 sentences long.
Anything beyond that reads as a run-on sentence, and on a phone comes across as a wall of text.

 

[rmanrman]

My 2cents. You have a 240volt with ground receptacle only.
You need a four wire with ground to get 240v and 120volt
Best way now is set up several heavy extension cords to vital items that need power. Ex fridge freezer fan small AC.
If you have double hung up/down windows you can get your cords thru the lower part by using a foam pool noodle with a notch cut into the lower part of the noodle. It will help keeping the rain out
Best luck and have plenty of batteries

 

[alfredeneuman]

8 1/2 lines is a "wall of text"? Hmmm

I'm on a PC. Which one of your posts have 8 1/2 lines of text?
I gave up after 20.

 

[mm08822]

I'm on a PC. Which one of your posts have 8 1/2 lines of text?
I gave up after 20.

You need a [..w.....i.......d.......e..] screen.

 

[alfredeneuman]

You need a [..w.....i.......d.......e..] screen.

When I switch monitors from a 25" to my 55" TV, it still doesn't show up.
I guess I have to switch to an even bigger monitor. Will a 120" do the trick?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Sorry guys, I'm on a computer. Looks perfectly normal from here.

And your monitor is 45”??

 

[claymont]

27 lines, 128 characters of text per line, plus spacing on a 17" laptop with the font sizing and display size I use,1400x900. No problem reading it for me.