need help figuring out LED lighting for big shop

[racestatus]

hey guys whats going on. I need some opinions. we just pretty much got the ok from our bosses to change out the lighting in out fleet dept. we have a shop that's about 50x100 with 20ft ceiling. we have 9 of those old giant stadium lights up there and they are horrible and are showing their age and 1 by one breaking. at 500 each to fix and god knows how much power to run they have given to ok to redo it all with led. I tried looking around but for that height I cant figure out good fixtures. we were thinking running 3 lengths down the shop out of 4ft fixtures. any ideas would be great. thanks guys!

 

[forAK]

^^^^ Sticky # 2 will have all you need to know. ^^^^

 

[American Locomotive]

I assume by "stadium lights", you mean 400W MH fixtures. I'm not sure where you got $500 each to fix though? Those fixtures run around $140 or less each...and usually its the capacitor that fails inside them, which is only about $15-20 to replace. If money is tight, I highly suggest just looking into repairing your current fixtures and putting new bulbs in them. MH bulbs have bad lumen maintenance, and should be replaced well before they burn out if you want maximum brightness.

A few things to keep in mind and some questions before buying anything:

- Good industrial LED lighting is expensive. There's a reason why those home-use 4-foot LED fixtures are like $25-35 - they're cheap garbage. They run hot, use low-quality components and will almost certainly die well before their quoted 50,000 hour life. The industrial/commercial stuff is drastically more expensive. Expect to pay anywhere between $200-400 for 4-foot high-bay commercial LED fixtures.

- What is the shop used for? Is it just a warehouse, are you doing repair work, are you doing delicate repair work?

- What will the installed height of the lights be? This will dictate if you use high-bay, or low-bay fixtures, and also how many fixtures you may need.

- What voltage do your current lights run on? A lot of industrial/commercial stuff is 277 volts, which rules out pretty much all "homeowner grade" stuff.

 

[racestatus]

^^^^ Sticky # 2 will have all you need to know. ^^^^

ok I will check that out. I say lay outs and didn't pay any mind to it

 

[racestatus]

I assume by "stadium lights", you mean 400W MH fixtures. I'm not sure where you got $500 each to fix though? Those fixtures run around $140 or less each...and usually its the capacitor that fails inside them, which is only about $15-20 to replace. If money is tight, I highly suggest just looking into repairing your current fixtures and putting new bulbs in them. MH bulbs have bad lumen maintenance, and should be replaced well before they burn out if you want maximum brightness.

A few things to keep in mind and some questions before buying anything:

- Good industrial LED lighting is expensive. There's a reason why those home-use 4-foot LED fixtures are like $25-35 - they're cheap garbage. They run hot, use low-quality components and will almost certainly die well before their quoted 50,000 hour life. The industrial/commercial stuff is drastically more expensive. Expect to pay anywhere between $200-400 for 4-foot high-bay commercial LED fixtures.

- What is the shop used for? Is it just a warehouse, are you doing repair work, are you doing delicate repair work?

- What will the installed height of the lights be? This will dictate if you use high-bay, or low-bay fixtures, and also how many fixtures you may need.

- What voltage do your current lights run on? A lot of industrial/commercial stuff is 277 volts, which rules out pretty much all "homeowner grade" stuff.

we had one go out yesterday and it was over 100 for the bulb and 200 for the ballast in it. I don't know what these junks are called but I know how much it costs to repair them. money is almost of no object I work for a big family owned oil company but I cant hand him a bill for 30k. its a repair facility as in a fleet dept like I stated. they will be installed at whatever height a fixture needs to be for the space I specified. not looking for homeowner grade I need commercial grade, they need to be bright and last a while.

 

[klassenl]

Really? You're asking the Internet for this? Go to your local electrician(s). This is what they do. They know which products are the good ones. Get a quote (actually 3 quotes). Before you spend thousands of company dollars talk to those that put their lively hood on this kind of stuff.

 

[nsula_country]

Sticky #2 is not an option here. That is for home hobby electricians. Not for a commercial application.

I read the home brew LED sticky and then went with High Bay 4 lamp T8 fixtures from a name brand, American company with name brand ballasts and bulbs. Installed over 15' high, over 80 FC at floor.

Name brand LED or T5 or T8 high bays are needed here. I'd call some electrical contractors, preferably ones that do commercial and industrial lighting. T8 would probably be the best value of cost, brightness and energy consumption. IMHO.

CT

 

[cybrdyke]

racestatus- get ahold of a local lighting person that can do a lighting layout for you. Skip the electricians. They know how to install things, but not how to select them. You might find someone at a local electrical supply that can help you. You can reward them by buying the stuff from them...you know...support the local guy.
There are really many variables that need to be considered, but at this point, LED is the way to go. There are hardly any new commercial jobs that happen anymore that still use fluorescent. Initial cost might be a little higher, but operating cost and maintenance will be lower in the long run, especially if your lights are on for long periods of time. Most folks in the auto industry like 5000k color, but it's a personal preference. If you want to look online (I recommend against buying online), search for an LED highbay with lumen output around 15,000 to 22,000 lumens. You'll start to get an idea of where pricing is. Good luck,
CD

 

[American Locomotive]

we had one go out yesterday and it was over 100 for the bulb and 200 for the ballast in it. I don't know what these junks are called but I know how much it costs to repair them. money is almost of no object I work for a big family owned oil company but I cant hand him a bill for 30k. its a repair facility as in a fleet dept like I stated. they will be installed at whatever height a fixture needs to be for the space I specified. not looking for homeowner grade I need commercial grade, they need to be bright and last a while.

I really want to know what kind of lights you have, and where you buy your bulbs from. I'm not aware of any existing lighting solution that uses $100 bulb. Even 1500 Watt MH bulbs are $25. Can you find out what kind of fixtures they are? I'm curious.

Since you're doing repair work, you're probably going to want at least 50 fc or more of lighting on the ground. 5000 sq ft x 50 = 250,000 total lumens needed

There are hardly any new commercial jobs that happen anymore that still use fluorescent. Initial cost might be a little higher, but operating cost and maintenance will be lower in the long run, especially if your lights are on for long periods of time.

I wouldn't really say that. Flourescent is still very popular, especially with modern T8 bulbs with near 100% lumen maintenance and up to 80,000 hour life spans. The local university just opened a $70 Million chemistry building, and it's lit exclusively with dimmable T8.

 

[cybrdyke]

5000 sq ft x 50 = 250,000 total lumens needed

That's not how footcandles are calculated.

I wouldn't really say that. Flourescent is still very popular, especially with modern T8 bulbs with near 100% lumen maintenance and up to 80,000 hour life spans. The local university just opened a $70 Million chemistry building, and it's lit exclusively with dimmable T8.

There are still a few, as I said, but projects like this are rare and becoming rarer.

CD

 

[American Locomotive]

Foot candles are lumens per square foot. If you have a 1 lumen light source pointed at a 1 square foot area, you have 1fc of light intensity on that surface.

 

[cybrdyke]

Foot candles are lumens per square foot. If you have a 1 lumen light source pointed at a 1 square foot area, you have 1fc of light intensity on that surface.

That's a technical definition, and is done in a lab. But that's not what you're doing.

 

[American Locomotive]

That's a technical definition, and is done in a lab. But that's not what you're doing.

You are right, it's a "lab definition", but it's a quick and dirty estimation to see at the absolute minimum (assuming ideal conditions) how much light and how many fixtures you'd need.

The real-world isn't ideal, and you'd of course have to factor in things like installed height of the lights, the fixture efficiency, and the photometrics of the fixture itself. But chances are if someone's asking on a forum, they're probably just looking for "in the ballpark" anyways.

 

[Bert_]

American locomotive is right. If someone is charging you $100 a bulb you are getting screwed no matter what size they are. Look for another source of parts. If you look at your lights they should have a tag telling you what they are.

If they are 400w MH the simplest would be to swap each fixure for a 6 lamp T5 HO high bay. That would give about the same amount of light as when your fixures were new. But you might want more light if your doing repair work in there.

 

[cybrdyke]

Yes, it's a "lab definition", but it's a quick and dirty estimation to see at the absolute minimum (assuming ideal conditions) how much light and how many fixtures you'd need.

If you wanted to get it down to a science, you'd of course have to factor in things like installed height of the lights, the fixture efficiency, and the photometrics of the fixture itself. But chances are if someone's asking on Garage Journal, they're probably just looking for "in the ballpark"

Your "in the ballpark" is off by about 60%. It could be more. And it will NEVER be accurate. To me, that's useless information. This isn't even good enough for "quick and dirty". No one who knows anything about lighting would use source lumens/square footage in any calculation, even in a guess-timate.
I disagree with you that folks on GJ are ok with bad advise. Some of these folks have spent more on their shops and garages than their entire homes. I doubt that they would appreciate being 50% under lit.
This poster is talking about a real working fleet shop with 20' ceilings and is using his bosses money. He probably doesn't want a ballpark answer.
My 2c
CD

 

[American Locomotive]

Your "in the ballpark" is off by about 60%. It could be more. And it will NEVER be accurate. To me, that's useless information. This isn't even good enough for "quick and dirty". No one who knows anything about lighting would use source lumens/square footage in any calculation, even in a guess-timate.

Yeah, maybe with a **** MH light, where the fixture eats 35% of the light and the cheap plastic lens throws the light everywhere. For down-firing high-bay LED fixtures, it's way more than close enough, and not even remotely close to being off by "60%"

Even just running a quick simulation in DIALux with the information provided (50x100x20) room, shows that a 4x4 grid of 20,000 lumen (320,000 lumens total) Phillips High-Bay LED fixtures will provide >55 fc over almost the entire work plane.

This poster is talking about a real working fleet shop with 20' ceilings and is using his bosses money. He probably doesn't want a ballpark answer.
My 2c
CD

Then he should be talking to a company that specializes in lighting design. Not an internet forum.

 

[tfi racing]

Give these MH LED retrofit lamps a look,I believe a certain big box retailer is trying them out in their stores and are so far happy with the results,pay attention next time you are shopping.CD has the best advice here,I would also recommend having a local lighting expert (usually not an electrician,95% of them know little about lighting) visit and quote some fixtures.

http://www.olympialighting.com/page-19